We have talked about McNabb, Young, Kolb, and Orton. In your opinion, under the exact same circumstances, how many games would these guys have won for our Phins in 2010? Would any have taken us into the playoffs? For that matter, which QB's in the entire NFL would have taken this team into the playoffs?
Orton is the best one on that list. He did the most with the least, IMO. I wouldn't care if McNabb, Young, and Kolb wear a Dolphin uni next season.
OK but, the question was/is how many games he would have won for the 2010 Dolphin team, same coaching, OL, WR's, TE, and RB's?
It's a valid opinion, more than the usual junk DR posts - at this point I don't know if any of those names would scare anyone. I could see those guys possibly winning a few more games than Henne did (especially against teams like the Browns/Lions) but I don't think any of them are really capable of leading a team to the Super Bowl. They are stopgaps. My priority is still getting a QB through the draft, be it this year or next.
Which QBs could have taken us into the playoffs? Id say, just as a rough list: Brady Manning Rogers Brees Ryan Rivers Roethlisberger Flacco Schaub Orton Freeman Garrard Also, if healthy, Romo Pennington Hasslebeck Those are the quarterbacks I'm certain of. Of course, this is qualitative, and people are going to disagree with some, most, or all of my picks.
I'm not sure even Peyton or Brady would have got us to the playoffs last year. IMO the problem was that we abandoned the run and were predictable. Henne's big issues were no ability to extend the play and doing what the coaches instructed. Everybody freaked out when Sparano stated that Henne only had six errors in that Detroit game, but I have no doubt that was true. Henne was executing the offense. So the QBs that would have helped us last year are the ones that could extend the play. Of the ones discussed as potential options, I think Young is the most likely to have helped. I don't think Orton would have been much different than what we had in Henne.
I have to agree. I know that the grass is always greener but, unless you're smoking it, I see no upgrade in available options.
I thought that the overall play from the OB position was poor..From timing aspects, to being able to generate a rhythm, not doing a good job of showing comfortabilty and patience in the pocket, the innate weaknesses such as a very low release point, the hitch in his release, the inability to change his arm angles and slots when traffic is around..0 ability to extend a play..o ability to maneuver a defense threw play action, pump fakes, eyes..Quite frankly iam suprised as hell he wound up with a 75 QBR.. I think all of the QB's mentioned would of won us more games.
He had Chad Pennington as his personal mentor for 3 years, at some point you gotta man up, show your skillset as a QB, and show your ability to lead men, and an offense...he failed in both regards...He also held the clipboard for a year..He had a pretty nice setup to succeed. His skillset is 1 dimensional...He throws lasers....what else is there from a skillset POV.. Touch...no Mechanics..no Functional QB athleticism...Hell no Deep ball accuracy..no Presence in the pocket...no intelligent passer...no Leadership...no. Built in weaknesses that lead to negative plays...yes Can I improve any QB'S game by surrounding him with skill position players that are explosive....Yes.. Is that what I want to rely on to win a championship...no. Will I give him one more chance to compete in training camp...Yes.
Sorry DJ, but I'm not buying the Pennington mentor argument. Penne can help him break down coverages and tendencies, but its Lee and Henning's job to correct his footwork, eye discipline, variant arm angles etc. When I watch our players on offense and their overall lack of attention to detail, I find it hard to believe that anyone was being coached up the way they should've been. I disagree that he's a one dimensional laser beam guy also. I came into 2010 watching to see if Henne had learned to take a little off on the shorter throws, and I quickly noticed he had, but maybe in a bad way. IMO he got away from throwing lasers too much this year, and that may have contributed to his historically high INT/dropped INT ratio. Henne seemed to be doing his best Penne impersonation and that is simply not his game. He rarely put any heat on this throws from what I saw. He seemed to be aiming at his targets instead of trusting his mechanics and letting it fly. Obviously, you dont want rocket balls on check downs to backs & TEs, but even on the down field throws to WRs, he seemed to be throwing change ups all year long. IMO you cant change a Jay Cutler type QB into a Pennington type guy. Henne's strength is his arm and his courage/toughness, use em or lose em. Last year we lost em. His deep ball accuracy could've been better, but its hard to shoot threes when you're only getting 1 or 2 shots per game. The WRs aren't guilt free either, none of them can run by anyone w/o a double move, play fake or flea flicker. None of them can eat up a 5-8 yd cushion in a timely manner. If none of your WRs can force a soft CB to turn his hips inside of 10 yds, you have a problem. If none of your WRs can run past a rolled up corner consistently, you have a problem. If none of your WRs are even-leavin guys, (meaning once they are even w/ the DB you can throw the ball up and let them run past the DB and under the ball while its in the air) then you have a problem. Henne had to be perfect on his deep balls b/c the opposing DBs were always faster than our WRs. Whereas last season, Teddy could run past just bout anyone if they singled him. Losing him hurt alot more than anyone expected, especially since the running game disappeared also. I totally agree on the leadership issue. I'd love to see him tighten that up. The quiet assassin personality is fine for a WR/RB but I prefer my QB to be a more vocal leader, to show emotion, light a fire under guys when need be. Emotionally, Henne just seems along for the ride. And there were several times last year when Marshall /Fasano got in his grill and Henne looked more like a school yard bully victim than a team leader. Its my biggest problem w/ him as a player. However, the same could be said for Eli Manning early in his career. Too monotone, no leadership skills. His teammates called him out for it, publicly. Tiki Barber trashed him on national TV and the Giants won a Super Bowl that same year. Not sure what you mean by "intelligent passer". He seems slow to come of of his #1 sometimes, and I dont ever see him looking off of defenders to create windows. But is he being coached to do this? Normally I'd assume he was. But he's not being coached (allowed?) to use a hard count, or change plays at the line, to milk the clock in 4 minute drills, or carry out play fakes correctly etc. These are things I can see week in and week out. People say, well he is being coached, but he's not responding. I doubt it. B/c I see Penne not carrying out his fakes either. Ronnie & Ricky dont do it. The OL goes straight pass pro when we run play action. On the rare occasion that an opposing DL jumps off-sides, our OL NEVER flinches to draw the off sides penalty, they just sit there and let the DL retreat back across the neutral zone. Our screen pass game is a joke, so is our draw game. I struggle to believe we ever ran either one in practice. Our run game was power or iso 80% of the time. The defense is calling out our pass plays before we even run them. I'm no coach, just a guy w/ a DVR and a GameRewind subz, but there are so many clues that lead me to believe that our offense was poorly coached that I think I could convince a jury that Lee, Henning and Sparano are guilty of 1st degree suckage. Henning being replaced, and the flirtation w/ Harbaugh tell me that even if I'm wrong, then at least Ireland and Ross agree with me. So its not a stretch to say that if Henne, and the whole offense, are not being coached up properly, then perhaps better coaching, attention to detail and preparation will solve some of the problems we see in his game. Time will tell.
Although Henne is somewhat intermingled in my question, he is not the focal point. Potential QB options are. With those who may be available, Maybe we win another game or two in 2010. We're still sitting home, and have a lower draft pick. Why bother? If we are still in a rebuilding mode, I'd rather roll the dice on a QB in the draft. Does anyone honestly believe that any of the available options are the answer?
Adrian Peterson, Arian Foster, Micheal Turner, Chris Johnson.........oh wait! These are Rb's but with a good run game, they would have had as good as, if not a better chance to make the playoffs with Henne than with the same run game and lets say, Manning. Maybe Yeah im not the biggest Henne supporter but it does not take a rocket scientist to see that running was a bigger problem than Qb.... Oh dang!! I forgot about a quality run blocking offensive line. Someone shoot me!!
Only 4 of the top 10 rushers made the playoffs. Three of the guys you mentioned didn't make it. QB is far and away the most important player on the field and we simply have to make it our priority.
McNabb..............9....................no Young................10..................yes to maybe Kolb...................9....................no Orton.................10 or 11...........yes Roth. Vick Manning Orton Rogers Freeman........My personal favorite, who I wish we had as our QB. Brees
I'm not a big fan of Orton. He was 3-10 as a starter, had VG coaching, and was very inconsistent in his 6th year against a relatively easy schedule. He also had a couple of horrible games vs bad D's in Zona and KC, and looks to be losing his job to Tim Tebow. I see no upgrade.
We can make it our priority as much as as we want. The problem is that there are no available difference makers out there, unless we were to get VERY LUCKY in the draft. IMO, our best option is surround Henne with the best alent we can, and hope he takes the next step.
The key factor with this is that the Dolphins defense is playoff caliber. They had a better chance at making the playoffs if teams had to fear, or at least respect their running game. The Qb was definitely a problem at times but running was a problem all year long....
I agree with this. Our opponents didn't have to worry about the deep ball so they could keep an extra defender in the box to try to disrupt our ground game. As the season progressed and our ground game faltered, the defenses could pretty much do what they wanted. It appeared like they always had our offense on its heels. They were attacking us instead of us attacking the D. I think the defenses knew we couldn't run, so they challenged our young QB, who was struggling as well, to beat us.
well since the phins didnt draft Matt Ryan like they should have. Since they didnt step up and get Jay Cutler like they should have. I would say try to get Kevin Kolb or trade back in the draft and get Ryan Mallet or Kapernick
If the Eagles are giving Kolb away sure but paying anything for a Qb, who's statistics are not as good as Henne's, and has shown nothing to us that he is better.... is a mistake.
From free agency? No, but there rarely is. The QB I want this year (Newton) will be hard to get. I think if we pass on a first round QB then we should sign a vet to compete with Henne. I am not opposed to giving Henne another chance with a new staff, but that is what it need to be - a chance. He showed me nothing to warrant giving him the keys to this offense unopposed. I would much rather sign a FA than trade for an Orton/Kolb. If we cant snag our QB of the future from this draft, then we need to stockpile our ammo to make a move in '12 for Luck/Barkley/Foles or whoever rises. Oh I definitely agree our running game was quite deficient last year, and whether it comes from the OL or the RBs or both, we need a boost next year. However, QB has to remain our focus.
I have to disagree with most of this. The Dolphins defense was ranked 14th this season. It's hard for most QB's to be successful with that kind of defense. Add in the injuries, play calling, and no running game and it's nearly impossible. Brady- He's played with a defense ranked 14th or worse only 2 times in his career. He won 9 games one season, failed to make the playoffs and won 10 games the other time. Manning- Could have probably made it to the playoffs since he's been there 6 times with defenses ranked 14th or lower. Rodgers- I want to say yes, but it's too early to tell with him. Brees- With the Saints, he's played 3 seasons with a 14th or worse defense and got into the playoffs once. That one time he won the Super Bowl. Maybe he gets one or two more wins than Henne. Ryan- Like Rodgers, too early to tell, but if I had to choose, no way. Rivers- I doubt it. He's made the playoffs with a defense ranked lower than 14th once...and even then they went 8-8 and benefitted from a weak division. Roethlisberger- No way. He's never played on a team with a defense rnaked 14th or lower or with a bad running game. Flacco- No way. He's Big Ben light in the fact that he's a product of his defense. Schaub- Nope. He's never played in the post season as it is. However, he's never played with a defense ranked as high as 14th. He may have won 1 or 2 more games than Henne. Orton- No way...no how. Freeman- Now you're just showing your Henne hate. Garrard- See above.
Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger, Phil Rivers, a healthy Chad Pennington, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Matt Schaub, Josh Freeman, Tony Romo, Michael Vick, Jay Cutler, Eli Manning, Matt Cassel, Carson Palmer, Matt Hasselbeck, probably Vince Young...maybe even Sam Bradford, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Jason Campbell or Kyle Orton, though I'm not so sure about that myself. It's all speculation anyway so it's not like you can disagree with me and "prove" you're right. My opinion is a lot of those guys could have steered us into the playoffs. Your opinion obviously differs.
Why do you think that all of those QB's could have led this team into the playoffs? Rivers, Schaub, Freeman, Romo, Manning, Palmer, Bradford, Fitzpatrick, Campbell nor Orton made it into the playoffs and most of them had better teams. Pennington couldn't make it through 2 plays and Young is a head case who was basically kicked off his team so I won't even get into them too much. The other QB's I left off had WAY better teams than Henne did.
I left Cutler and Eli off of my list due to the turnovers, though I should probably amend it to include healthy versions of Pennington, Romo, and Hasslebeck.
Yeah, they ranked 14th in scoring defense which was aided by 1 punt return, 2 KO returns, 2 int's for TD's, one blocked FG, and so many times the special teams left the defense with one quarter of the field to defend. That's well over 42 points that fall into that catagory. So even though the punt and KO returns are a sort of defense, if you take away the int's for TD's, and the blocked FG, they fall into 8th in the league. They did allow to many points in pass defense but last years defense was definitely of playoff caliber...
I have a difficult time pinpointing one thing to blame the offensive meltdown on. I think it was a perfect storm type scenerio. 1.Hennings play calling was terrible but he also had a very limited selection of plays that our offense could execute to choose from. 2. Ricky and Ronnie were big let downs. Our lack of a passing game and poor O-Line play did not help their case but that does not excuse all of the bad play from them. 3. Henne had to deal with poor play calling and a lack of a run game but you can not excuse his bad playing either. Part of the problem our line had was because he held the ball too friggin long. He wore them out to a certain extent becuase he is slow making his reads. His throws are inaccurate and he has feet made of lead. 4. Our line I think I am the most understanding toward. I think we need a better center and we had injury issues plauging them guys. They could of performed better but I think they will be better next season and I hope we upgrade our center. Incognito is OK as a fill in but he should not be our starter. I guess we go back to Berger next year but he did not impress me either. 5. I'm afraid of the reaction I am going to get when I say this next point. I think they should of held onto Ginn. No he was nothing great but the kid has speed and he was a decent return guy. He was worth more then a 5th. I would rather see Marshall, Ginn, Bess out there over Hartline. All in all though I think our reciever core is OK. We could use some speed but we have bigger needs to look at this year before we adress that. As far as the QB names being tossed around as potentialy landing here. I would not object to seeing any of them land here. I think this staff either ruined Henne or he never had it to begin with. It really bothers me that he was not named team captain by his offense. I think that really reflects poorly on him. What concerns me about the pool of names of stop gaps out there is the pricetag these teams are hanging on these guys. Im not real high on Young but if he comes without costing us draft picks then he is my front runner. Giving up anything more then a 5th or 6th and even make that conditional or its too much IMO.
All of them would have taken us to the playoffs last season. Wins: McNabb - 10 wins Young - 11 wins Kolb - 10 wins Orton - 11-12 wins
wish these Henne threads would go away. in all prodigality he'll get another shot lemonade out of a lemon, done every day we have bigger fish to fry: 1) is there a franchise QB on the horizon worth the sacrifice in pics & treasure? then, we go for the big brass ring this year & focus on filling the offensive holes with quality players next year 2) if it is judged that the franchise QB is not available, then there are a lot of holes to fill on this offense: RB, Center, Left Guard,TE & Return-Specialist/WR. we need to do it now. got to go one way or the other in this draft & free-agency, can't do it all in a year. we simply can't afford to squander picks & treasure on non-quality or high risk players. my personal barometer for bringing anyone aboard this year would be in the form of two questions: can they compete & contribute as rookies? do they have pro-bowl potential?
