Next round is on me if you can find where I ever said that WRs make QBs. Maybe you're reliving a discussion you had w/ someone else.
Lucky for me, I don't drink, so there won't be a need. In any case... You didn't, but you disagreed with the notion that quarterbacks make wide receivers.
Respectfully, I strongly disagree. Even "if" the #2 WR isn't pulling coverage away from Brandon as you state, that doesn't mean he can't TAKE ADVANTAGE of the single coverage he's afforded. I could care less what Hartline's YPC is (which over 30 receivers actually had a greater YPC <with at least 20 catches> so YOU might not call that a "whole lot" but others would. That basically means every NFL team has a WR with a greater YPC than our top YPC guy. That's not something to be proud of). Hartline's impact yards are what I care about, and they're nothing special. -61% of his yards came between our own 20-39 yardline. -He's not a scorer..... and if you haven't noticed we need scorers. -He's a minimal redzone threat. -He breaks very few big plays. -He's mediocre on 3rd downs (46% completions, 128 yards, 38% first downs compared to Bess: 65% completions, 299 yards, 65% first downs). -He's not the guy you want in those advantageous single coverage match ups b/c he is NOT the guy you can trust "throwing it up to" down field. ---He doesn't attack the ball well, nor has the physicality to really outplay his man. ---He doesn't track the ball very well downfield. ---He lacks body control or ability to adjust or contort when the ball is mid air. ---He doesn't have close to an elite vertical to win jump balls. ---He doesn't have close to elite vertical speed to run under a pass that might normally be overthrown to a 4.5 guy. ---If the ball's not right on the money, then a good corner with closing speed can recover and make a play on him (based on everything stated above). ---(Basically, he's not a guy that a cannon armed QB would want as a best friend downfield) -He also regressed this year in virtually every category. -The more receivers on the field (3+), the worse his production became despite our QB's production increasing, so if we're going to open the offense up more, he's not the #2 to facilitate this. -He was thrown to 3 times over 40 yards with 1 of those completed. He can occasionally get open deep and requires a near perfect pass for success, but he's NOT a vertical threat and doesn't get open consistently enough vertically. You could paint him black and throw him in a #17 Steeler uniform and NO ONE will confuse him with Mike Wallace. -How can we have a decent offense or a good ground game if we have no one that opposing defenses respect vertically? -How can guys like Marshall & Bess have more space to make plays if you have a guy like Hartline who does little to provide it to them? -How can we have any explosiveness on offense when our fastest guy runs a 4.5? -If you think Hartline in single coverage downfield would be no different or less effective than Sidney Rice (Santonio Holmes or Sims Walker), then all I can do is shake my head. -Please don't mistake his YPC as being a vertical threat b/c he's still a possession WR who is good at creating "initial" separation that allows him to occasionally get by his man. -Hartline is a good receiver b/c he does a lot of little things well w/o really excelling in any one area...... but when you don't have an elite QB, the receivers need to pull up the slack and make more plays...... and that, my friend, is something that Brian just does NOT provide. He would be a great complimentary receiver to the offense, but as a #2 he's holding this team back. If he were on GB, he would be their 5th receiver, and they have a better QB than us, so I'm not sure where this "let's accept mediocrity" attitude is coming from when we clearly are NOT good enough on offense and are lacking at the WR position. So basically what you're saying is that it's ok to to go after a WR who is good enough to be better than Wallace or Moore, but he just can't be good enough to supplant Brian?...... or are you saying that we just don't need any WRs period b/c we're fine at the position? Strongly agree. Hartline would be sitting the bench behind Jordy and Jones in GB. I love the mentality that it's ok for us to have a #2 who might've had less than 200 yards receiving as the Packer's #5. Yup, that'll get us far. I like Hartline a lot......... as a #4, but he's simply outmatched as a #2 just as some guys are outmatched as a #1 but are forced to play the role b/c they're the best guy on the team. Sims-Walker is a mediocre #1, but would probably be an outstanding #2. That's what we face with Hartline: mediocre #2 but probably an outstanding #4. People act like he'd never see the field as a #4 or that no one would get injured. If Brandon goes down again, then we're doomed with Hart or Bess forced into the #1 spot.
Everyone wants an elite QB but okay WR's. Elite WR's are easier to come by. Let's get the WR's now and the QB later. The closest thing to an elite QB available is Matt Hasselbeck this year.
Would have been nice to have Childress.Besides AP,he's the only one we could have truly needed. But hey,if we don't need someone like Brad's offensive mind,why get a field stretching,play making, long ball threat like Rice? It goes against the logic of what we have been accomplishing.
Exactly. A little common sense goes a long ways. It's not guaranteed "when" our QB play will become elite, so instead of waiting around for it or assuming that it will happen, how about we improve the offense in areas that we KNOW can be upgraded.
Manningham, Nicks, and Smith are 3 studs who compliment each other well. Plus they make plays for their QB and offer a true vertical threat. We're not saying that each WR and TE need to be elite individually, but that doesn't mean they can't be elite as a collective. Plus the Giants have good depth which we do not.
As much as I like Moss, there is one Wr on the market I'd want the Dolphins to exhaust all means to try and get first. Santonio Holmes is a game changer with big time, big play capabilty. Adding a player like him makes it really hard for people to defend the pass. The team would have 4 Wr's that all have unique things they do well. Marshall would benefit so much from a player like Holmes...
no.... difference is their WRs are much better at gaining separation (and better separation) beyond 10 yards and infinitely better at playing the ball beyond 10 yards.
Yet those WRs have won how many playoff games? The NYG have won a playoff game in one season Eli Manning has been there, and it was the season where he didn't throw any INTs in the playoffs.
repeat after me. Our QB costs $104 million less than Eli Manning...... and they STILL HAVE PLAYMAKERS. Repeat after me one more time: we dont have to settle for mediocrity!
I didn't mean any discredit to Hartline, I think he has progressed pretty well so far. I just don't see why we wouldn't take a chance on a talent like Rice if it wasn't gonna cost us an arm and leg. Hartline has some improving to do, but he is a solid wr. As much as he is one of my favorite Phins, I can't sit here and say that Rice isn't a vast improvement...at least at this point. Rice simply gives us what we need and that is the consistent deep threat. A player like that opens up the whole offense. That also in turn helps the QB progress and build confidence much easier. Anyone saying we need a QB first is just being ignorant. Sure we need a better QB and I'm sure the top dogs will bring in someone to compete with Henne for the start, but this year is not the year we find our franchise QB. Unless of course Henne makes a big turn around. I don't see us taking a QB in the draft and don't think we'll spend top dollar on a top FA QB either. That means we work with what we have The market for WR is flooded this off season and this could be a good time to pick up a quality WR on the low financially. Whether it be Rice, Holmes or even another WR. I just say we go for improving any position that we possibly can
They had the injury bug last year..... and how many seasons have those young guys been playing together? I guess that doesn't matter either. And when Eli DID win the SB, they had WRs who MADE PLAYS FOR HIM. You're making it seem as though Plaxico was some slouch and offered no big play capability.
Exactly. We have to be objective about this. Liking a guy isn't a reason to not upgrade an aspect of the team. I like Hartline a ton as a player and love him on this team as I believe he embodies what we're trying to represent as a whole...... but that doesn't mean I can't recognize his shortcomings (or our offense's shortcomings).
Points for condescension but none for content. Statistics measure what happens on the field. I can claim all day up and down what I saw on the field, but the reality most of it is going to be reflected in statistics, and if it isn't, it's easily explainable why it is not. Strangely, you've forgone that latter option. I wonder why? For most of the season he was on pace for his career year in terms of yardage and yards per catch, and it wasn't really until Henne went into the ditch and Marshall got hurt that changed, so yes, he was used properly. No, as a rule, it's not. None of those players that are options to bring in belong on that list, and it's a little bit different when you are under utilizing talent just to go with a flashier name.
I agree. Individually their top 3 were no better...... however, as an entire receiving unit (TEs & RBs included), they were better & complimented each other better and made more big plays.
20 catches is not really in any sense an appropriate thresh-hold? If you had 20 catches you are either extremely bad or you played less than 25% of your teams snaps. If you filter out the receivers who played less than 50% of their teams offensive snaps(Essentially at least #3 WRs), Hartline was 21st in the league, which isn't great but it's quite respectable. However, virtually most of those players are stuck in a negligibly different area of yards per catch in the 14-15.something per catch range with Hartline. There are 11 players in the NFL who averaged more than 2 yards per catch more than Hartline, which still isn't a really significant difference. Furthermore, in terms of the guys that GMJohnson mentioned, basically it's Vincent Jackson(In '09), and Braylon Edwards(This year) who have done significantly better on a per-catch basis(Several of the players actually were worse). So justifiably, we're looking at what? We're going to trade for Vincent Jackson lol? Or pay Braylon Edwards money even the Jets aren't willing to play him we can feed him the ball so he can come down with what, 50% of the balls thrown to him? Neither of those are remotely viable options. Check your quarterback? You notice that even well-established red zone threats like Brandon Marshall and Anthony Fasano are not putting up hardly any scores? He had 10 20+ yard receptions in 73 targets(13.6% of his targets). Let's compare to the receivers that are being trot out as people we should throw cash at: Braylon Edwards: 14 20+ yard receptions in 102 targets(13.7%) Santonio Holmes: 11 20+ yard receptions in 94 targets(11.7%) Vincent Jackson(2009): 17 20+ yard receptions in 107 targets(15.8%) Sidney Rice(2009): 22 20+ yard receptions in 122 targets(15.5%) Really? Very few big plays? The rest of that stuff is largely either your scouting report, which is largely irrelevant in terms of what he's actually done no offense, or stuff that's absolutely tied into the overall offensive situation. - That's really laughable. With that better quarterback, only Greg Jennings was significantly more productive. That's really a bull**** argument to make. No one is suggesting "let's accept mediocrity", and it's an intellectually dishonest way to paint a contrary argument.
Disgustipate, there's a thing called competition and a depth chart. lol. So what do you call it when a receiver has 43 receptions with NOTHING playing behind him to compete with him or take away reps? What about young guys who are just earning playing time? Do they not count?
The Packers roster at wide receiver was more wide-open than the Dolphins with Finley going down and a broke dick Donald Driver. A young receiver on that roster basically had Greg Jennings to sit behind, and if they were good enough to earn it, they had whatever they could seize. Hartline had Brandon Marshall, who is going to demand a higher amount of targets than Greg Jennings will, and Davone Bess(Who got the same amount of targets as Jennings did). Not to, you know, mention that the two players in question you are actually trying to compare to Brian Hartline are 3rd and 4th year players. Neither James Jones nor Jordy Nelson were nearly as productive as Hartline in their respective second years.
it is significant when our other receivers (including TE) are mostly underneath guys. I hope you're not comparing Hartline to Edwards or V Jackson. lol That would be nice, but no, it doesn't have to be that extreme. It just has to be a guy who compliments the best 2 WRs we currently have. Our dynamics need to change b/c they're for crap right now. A non-bank breaker like Sims Walker or someone via the draft would suffice. Actually, our redzone problems didn't stem from our QB. He was actually decent there. The problem was Sparano and Henning playing for FGs and taking the ball out of our playmaker's hands. We could also use another receiver besides Brandon who's a redzone threat. Check your QB. So what youre saying is Henne actually can get the ball to him since he's nothing remotely close to the talent of the players you referenced. Santonio & Vincent had Sanchez throwing to them, and it's arguable that 17 & 22 are considerably better than 10. That's 7 & 12 more big plays, where every big play could sway the outcome of a game. Seriously, Rice's 22 is more than double Hartline's. More importantly than having more 20+ yards is WHAT these guys do for the players around them. Hartline doesn't really benefit anyone else but himself and the QB. The rest of this stuff is recognizable after watching him the past 2 years. - Uhhh, that's b/c Rodgers had more capable guys to spread the ball around to. lol. It's simple math really. When you have only 3 receivers and 1 TE (and 2 receivers & 1 TE when Marshall was hurt), then Hartline will show more in the stat column by default. If Driver, Nelson, and Jones were in Miami, Hartline would NOT have the stats he had last year. I'm sorry, but he's not a better receiver than any of those guys. It's not BS. Our offense sucks, doesn't produce, lacks any semblance of proper dynamics, and nobody compliments each other. It's a misfit offense, and b/c Hartline is the #2 in this offense, he needs to be upgraded since Marshall & Bess arent going anywhere.
With all due respect, you're missing something here. It's not about the individual numbers as much as it's about what this player can provide for his entire offense........ it's about how he can help maximize everyone's production around him. There's a trap that many fans understandably fall into (no matter how wise they are about the game). All too often we focus on what we don't have or are deficient in (our weaknesses) rather than focusing on what we DO have (our strengths). We don't have an elite RB or the ground game to go with it. We don't have an elite QB. We don't have an elite TE. What we DO have is an elite WR, one of the most reliable slot WRs in the game, and a cannon armed QB. We don't know how our ground game will turn out. We don't know if our TE play will improve. And we don't know if our QB play will ascent to the next level. But what we do know is that we have a game-changing, playmaking WR if we can get him the ball in space...... and we do know that we have a playmaking underneath slot WR if we can get him the ball in space,. too. This should be our focus. No where in this scenario does Hartline supersede Brandon or Davone. Hartline is not the best player on the field and we're not paying him $40 million to be the best. Respectfully, he's an afterthought in this equation, with Brandon being the focus. It's not about how much YAC Hart picks up; it's about Marshall having the opportunity to be Marshall, otherwise he's just a glorified possession receiver. A major goal of this offseason should be "getting the most out of one of the best WRs in the league", otherwise we're wasting our money on him..... and if that means altering the #2 WR spot, then that's what we have to do regardless of Hartline's individual production. Brandon isn't a Mike Wallace, Andre Johnson, or Calvin Johnson type player in the sense that he cant really create his own space so he needs help from his teammates to be effective. The same goes for Bess. You could see the look of frustration on his face all year b/c he couldn't do the things he's capable of (and it has nothing to do with the QB). Defenses could afford to key in on him and take him out of games so that he posed little big play ability. How many times did we see him tackles immediately before he had a chance to pick up any YAC? It was ugly. Brandon, Bess, and Henne will never be fully maximized if the dynamics aren't improved and our players don't compliment each other better. B/c of this, it's imperative that we get in a #2 who is either good enough to demand more attention <or take better advantage of single coverage> or is a legitimate threat to stretch the field and help preoccupy the safeties. His effectiveness doesn't necessarily have to lie in his stats but rather in what he provides for Brandon, Bess, and Henne since these guys are the keys to the offense. It'd also help to have a better receiving TE to garner more attention from the LBs to better free up Marshall & Bess underneath.
That's a total non-sequitur. Brian Hartline's relationship in terms of yards per catch does not change because you think our other receivers are mostly underneath guys. Factually, there are not many players significantly better in terms of yards per catch than Brian Hartline, and the idea that he's somehow not a big play threat is wrong. Don't play dumb, the basis for the comparison and the context is pretty clear. Mike Sims-Walker produced less yardage, had a worse yards per catch, and caught a lesser pecentage of passes than Hartline. Walker would be a fantastic choice if you want someone who does literally nothing better than Hartline than run in a straight line at the combine. Again, Anthony Fasano. Did you not understand something about the per-snap basis? - There is literally nothing to what you are saying other than your assertion those two players are somehow better despite not actually having produced anything better? Those two receivers were the Packers #2 and #3 receivers. Nelson isn't even comparable, and Jones produced marginally 70 more yards in 15 more throws at him. I hate to break it to you, but regardless of your fantasies neither is Hartline.
You do realize that Hartline was the starter over Bess going into this season, right? So how did this happen for Marshall in Denver? Was it Jabar Gaffney or Eddie Royal?
Brandon Marshall finished 4, 19 and 8th in YAC from '07-'09 in a list that included runningbacks. He's one of the best in that area. His poor showing last year, in my opinion, had more to do with ball placement than anything else. Our supporting cast is better than Denver's was. The difference was their pro-bowl quarterback (Cutler). ...but then again, people around here don't want to hear that. (And on a side note, Vick is elite and Eli is EXTREMELY underrated (I missed a couple of responses)) Edit: And before someone mentions that Cutler was not around in '09, yes, I do believe Kyle Orton is in the same underrated category as Eli Manning--Brandon Lloyd is not a good wide receiver.
you realize that it's no longer the beginning of last season right. lol. We all know who the top 2 receivers are on this team, even if one of them is technically the #3 b/c he excels in the slot. Their offense was more dynamic than ours.... and they had better speed. I watched every Fins game just like the rest of us. Are you honestly saying that you disagree about Brandon being tackled immediately far too often than should be happening?
The bottom line that I think everyone would agree with is regardless of Hartline's role next year we have to get better in our 4 and 5 receiver sets. I don't care how we do it ideally it would involve at least one guy with game breaking speed, but I think we can (and need to) find that guy this year without breaking the bank on one of the bigger names because as we all know there are plenty of positions that we need upgraded this offseason.
