Four or five receivers on the field at once is going to be a very small minority of your snaps for pretty much any team, and most of the teams who do use a fair amount of four or five wide sets have a tight end or back or both split wide when doing so.
Yes, because the slotting of a 24 year old wide receiver is static, and that he lost his starter job early in the season means he's unlikely to ever earn it back or get a chance to do so. Fact of the matter is, Hartline even with his slow start would have been on pace to have near 1000 yards in a full 16 game season had he not been hurt, and when you look at his last several games, he was very clearly looking like a quality, big play starter. He was averaging 80-something yards a game and 18+ yards a reception his last four games. "Dynamic" is a totally empty buzzword. What exactly did the Broncos have to help Marshall out in that regard? I'm really interested in seeing you spell this one out.
Condescension? Common sense is more like it. If anything you're being condescending. You're basically implying that NFL/College/High school coaches are all idiots b/c they spend thousands of hours watching film when all they really need to do is check a few stats & that'll tell them how their players performed. Seriously, you'd be laughed out of any coaches meeting if you came in talking like that. Stats are results based, they say the QB threw an INT, but wont tell you that the OL blew the blitz pick up and the WR ran the wrong route, or fell down etc. Stats say the QB completed a 10 yd pass, they don't explain that there was a wide open WR 30 yds down field that the QB failed to see. Basically, stats tell the who, what and when. Film tells the who, what, when, where, how & why. Which is why coaches and players pore over film, not statistics. It's also why relying on stats will leave you confused and ill informed. Like I said, you can (selectively) use stats all you want. I'll go by route running, route adjustment, coverage recognition, speed out of breaks, catch radius, ball skills, pre/post catch elusiveness, cushion eating, how defenses are playing him etc. There are several WRs who are a better fit for our offense than Hartline, I suggest we sign at least one of them. If you disagree, that's fine.
No offense, but you just don't seem to understand anything that isnt stats based. Jackson, Rice, Holmes, Austin, Jennings, Johnson, Marshall, Jackson, the "#1" WRs, they put up big numbers WHILE ALSO CREATING SPACE for the other WRs to make plays. They put up big numbers despite the fact that opposing defenses are geared primarily towards stopping them. Hartline puts up lesser numbers, and he creates space for no one. In fact, Marshall and Bess are drawing the bulk of the coverage, making it easier for Hartline to make plays. Bess, Hartline & Fasano all saw increased, career high, production levels this season. Meanwhile, Marshall had his worst season since he was a rookie. Stats wont explain why that is. Common sense and film study will. Stats are useless without any real idea of the X and Os reasons behind them. If you play w/ Sid Crosby you're going to see increased opps b/c the defenses are looking at Crosby. If you bat in front of, or behind, Albert Pujols, you'll see better pitches than normal. If you're on the court w/ Lebron or Wade, you'll get more open shots. It's a simple concept that applies in most team sports. Marshall is the guy who gets walked so that the opposing team can pitch to Hartline. Hartline is the guy who gets open 3's all game off of Marshall's dribble penetration. Todd and I are saying we need to reverse the dynamic. We need to get a guy who creates space for Marshall, not a guy who teams ignore so that they can focus Marshall. At the least, we need a guy who can eat good vs single coverage, and change the way teams play us defensively. I'm not talking about 4 catches for 56 yds and 1 TD ALL SEASON. I'm talking a guy who, if singled up, can put up 6-8 catches for 100+ yds a game. Single cover Holmes, or Rice all game and they will torch you.
I wasn't speaking about how they affected Brian's YPC. I was speaking about how Brain doesn't maximize Brandon's & Bess's play underneath. He does little for them. Little. Couldn't help it; you walked into it. Apples to apples please. You can't compare a #1 facing tougher coverage to a #3 facing more lax coverage (who has Brandon Marshall on the field with him). Regardless, I'd still take Walker's 7 TDs and 13.1 YPC to Hartlines 14.3 and 1 TD when they both had 43 catches. Defenses have to respect Walker more, which in turn helps out Bess, Brandon, and our ground game. Mike has great speed (4.35), is more physical, is a bigger playmaker, is more reliable downfield, is much more productive on 3rd down (50% vs 37%), is more productive in the redzone (7 TDs in 15 attempts in 2010 vs zero), can fill in better as a #1 if Brandon is injured or off field, is more productive between the 40's, is better in 3+ WR sets, helps draw more coverage from Bess & Marshall so they have more room to operate, compliments Bess & Marshall better, and helps make our offense more dynamic. Sims Walker is more productive in 3+ WR sets: Mike: 33 catches, 59% catch ratio, 452 yards, 13.7 ave, 5 TDs, 28 1st downs, 46% 1st down rate. Hart: 24 catches, 55% catch ratio, 288 yards, 8.30 ave, 1 TD, 15 1st downs, 34% 1st down rate. Basically, with Walker you're getting more "impact" yards..... and considering we now have one of the top slot WRs in the NFL, we'll be using more 3+ WR sets to get he and Brandon on the field together, which is where Hart is less productive. You speak of Walker's straight line speed as if it's a bad thing. So what if that's his strong suit. That's what we're missing. lol. Honestly, how many route running possession WRs do you want us to have? Bess & Marshall aren't enough? This isn't a Pennington run offense; we need a guy as our #2 who matches up better to Henne's arm. Fasano helps in the redzone but I'm not sure he applies to the WR scenario of catching fades or jump balls in the back of the endzone if defenses are shaded to Marshall. The most polite way I can say this is Hartline sucks as a redzone threat in this sense. lol. I understand that Braylon and Holmes had a crappy QB throwing them the ball, and they had to do most of the work themselves. They turned plays into 20+ yard gains. Hartline..... not so much. Vincent & Sidney are pretty strong at nearly 16%..... but the percentage isn't what's the most important thing. What's important is the plays themselves. 20+ yarders Brian Hartline:....... 10 catches (13.7%), 289 yards, 28.9 avg, 0 TDs, 99 YAC. Braylon Edwards:... 14 catches (13.7%), 523 yards, 37.4 avg, 5 TDs, 194 YAC. Santonio Holmes:....11 catches (11.7%), 339 yards, 30.8 ave, 3 TDs, 141 YAC Mike Wallace:......... 26 catches (26.2%), 904 yards, 34.8 avg, 9 TDs, 275 YAC. Anthony Armstrong: 15 catches (17.4%), 582 yards, 38.8 avg, 3 TDs, 109 YAC. DeSean Jackson:..... 21 catches (21.8%), 844 yards, 40.2 avg, 5 TDs, 311 YAC. Johnny Knox:.......... 17 catches (17.0%), 580 yards, 34.1 avg, 4 TDs, 188 YAC. Brandon Lloyd:........ 23 catches (15.0%), 796 yards, 34.6 avg, 5 TDs, 162 YAC. Mario Manningham:.. 19 catches (20.6%), 666 yards, 35.1 avg, 8 TDs, 294 YAC. Robert Meachem: 10 catches (15.1%) <similar to Hart's 10 catches in 73 attempts right?..... Wrong.> 388 yards, 38.8 avg, 4 TDs, 70 YAC. (That's 99 more yards and 4 more TDs than Hartline.) Kenny Britt: 12 catches (16.4%), <Similar to Hart? Nope.> 454 yards, 37.8 avg, 5 TDs, 91 YAC. What's more important? The percentage of 20+ catches?.... or the production of those catches? I'll take more yards per catch and more TDs. I want impact yards. Is a 20+ play that results in a 27 yard grab and no TD really the same thing as a 43 yard catch that results in a TD? Just sayin. Would you mind telling me what the total yardage, avg, TDs, and YAC were for Rice and V Jackson in 09? We could hold a separate debate as to whether or not Hart would start ahead of Nelson and Jones. Driver didn't count? How could those guys produce more when they have more competition to face? We had only 3 WRs and 1 TE (and for a few games it was 2 WRs & 1 TE). GB had nearly twice as many guys to spread the ball around to so of course they're gonna have less "stat production". If Nelson was the #3 WR with no one playing behind him and only 1 TE, then I'd have a hard time believing that he wouldn't have higher stats. However, when you go to post season, Nelson was 1st in receptions, 2nd in yards, and 2nd in TDs. Driver was 3rd. James Jones was 8th in yards and had 2 more TDs in the post season than Hart had all season. Sorry, but I don't buy Hart being better. I watched those guys play..... and I've seen Hart for 2 years. Did I say Hart is going somewhere? Marshall isn't going anywhere as our #1. Bess isn't going anywhere as our slot. I'm saying that those 2 positions are set and not changing. We need an upgrade on offense; we need to score; we need to be more explosive; we need extra playmaking ability....... and since Marshall & Bess are solidified at their respective positions, that by default leaves the #2 WR spot. Hart doesn't have to go anywhere except to the #4 spot where he's much more valuable to the team.
agreed..... but I'm not looking at it as if Hart is firmly supplanted as the #2. I'm looking for a playmaker who is some kind of threat downfield. If that means he pushes Hart to #4, then so be it. I don't play favorites. If the draft is before FA and we can't land anyone in the draft, then I'll go after upgrading Hart if that's the only way we can add more speed and playmaking ability.
Great post and awesome analogies. Yup. Hart is pretty much an afterthought for defenses compared to Marshall and Bess, yet he still cant break 100 yards in a game.... and he doesn't have a 100 yard game in 2 years..... he also doesn't score, and his supposed big plays (20+ yarders) produce no TDs and have a lower AVG than you'd like from a guy who's seeing single coverage and is supposed to be your speed guy. Even Sims Walker would beat up single coverage, giving us a better opportunity to win games. Even he would force teams to play us differently or allow Walker to continue torching them. Holmes or Rice might even have a better year than Marshall in this offense b/c of the way defenses respect Brandon. lol. Look at TJ Housh in Cincy with Ocho....... and then his drop off in production/ impact plays in Seattle w/o Ocho. I honestly don't care about Hartline. I care about Marshall. I could care less how many yards Hart has if they're not impact yards and it's causing our best player, Marshall, to have less production in the process. I want "X" amount of production from the WR position as a whole. If defenses game plan to take player "A" out of the game or limit his impact, then player "B" better be able to pull up the slack while in more favorable coverage.
Sidney rice is not going to play for free.They already have the highest paid wr in the nfl and they are not going to make him the second highest at the same postion.This team is going to spend thier money on offensive line,rb,te,qb and a cheaper speed wr if they can find one.
There is nothing selective to it. The only reason why you're claiming this film study thing is so you can take a supposed higher authority while not having any burden of proof whatsoever. The idea that you're watching any significant amount of film is ridiculous in itself, given that NFL Broadcasts don't show a tremendous amount of what a WR is doing down the field. I've gone to every home game of Hartline's career, and could actually be in a position to claim I'm watching that, but I'd actually like to stick to things I've got some degree of tangible proof on. And what's that involve? Hell, what is our offense?
Mike Sims-Walker was the Jaguars #2, and Hartline was the #2 for a significant portion of the field, and given what kind of receiver Bess is, he's not always going to draw a teams 2nd best corner as much as the guy who is the designated Nickel corner. Walker is faster, that's really it. More reliable down the field is not accurate. More productive on third down and the red zone is as much a factor of the offense as anything. Can fill in better as a #1 is ridiculous given that when Brandon Marshall was injured and in a slump Hartline was averaging 82 yards a game at 18 yards a reception. Let's reflect on this phrase for a moment..."impact" yards. Do those count more on the field? Is there an additional multiplier involved? You're pretty irredeemably wrong if you think Brian Hartline is a possession receiver. You do realize his QB was Chad Henne, right? Vincent & Sidney are pretty strong at nearly 16%..... but the percentage isn't what's the most important thing. What's important is the plays themselves. That's overwhelmingly about the quarterback and the offense they are in for most of those players. Some of them are undeniably better at it, Hartline will never be as fast as Desean Jackson for example, but 20+ yards is a big play under any definition however you'd like to twist it. But those players factually were not eating into either of those players snap counts. They were both on the field for pretty similar amounts of snaps as Brian Hartline was, and target wise they were in virtually the same position in the offense. Hartline's position in the offense isn't going anywhere, either. It's highly unlikely they do anything except churn the #4 and #5 guys.
LOL, I give up dude. You're right, looking at stat sheets is in no way inferior to watching the games. My bad.
I don't understand how you are confused here. I also watch the game, and not only that, I go to the games. I can see players running their full routes, can see what happens when the ball isn't going to them, etc and so on. And I disagree completely with your perception of Hartline based on that. You can say whatever you want is based on film, as can I, but the statistics are the thing that is actually you know, tangible.
Funny...when talking about Henne. Henne Lovers get mad at people that "watch" Henne and the fact that he doesnt pass the supposed eye test. Funny how the story changes when the shoe is on the other foot...
To be honest, he's just going to go down the list for the other 10 players until he gets to that one position, as it's his repeatedly stated opinion that the other positions have to improve as opposed to that one.
I completely agree with what you're saying, but I think you would agree that if we ended up with little and jernigan or James and jacoby Jones this offseason that we would have done enough to improve the wide receiver position. But it's also possible that hartline could beat these two duos (or any combination that we don't break the bank for) out for the number 2 position, especially since he's going into that famed third year that we always hear about with wide receivers. I think that in this discussion it's being forgotten that hartline has only been in the league for 2 years. He's still likely to improve on what we've seen thus far.
If I wanted you to think and talk for me, I'd ask you. Capiche? I won't speak for you, but it seems like you're implying that the only weakness on offense is QB. Excuse me if I vehemently disagree..... And excuse me if I exhaust other avenues for improving the offense due to the fact that upgrading QB may not be an option this year. I look at each position independently from each other. What I feel about our #2 WR spot or the overall dynamics of the offense is unrelated to what I do or don't feel about our QB situation. I'm merely being realistic and common-sensical. It appears that you, however, are not.
i couldn't disagree with this at all, and he would probably enter the season as the starter over those guys along with virtually every rookie not named AJ or possibly Julio.
This is a thread about Sidney Rice, and adding talent to the WR position. Why would we not leave the "glaring position" out? Aren't there enough Henne bashing threads already?
OK, you attend the games. So do the players, and the coaches. They still spend thousands of hours watching film in order diagnose what's going on. From your vantage point in the stands, what is it about Hartline that makes you think that adding a top flight WR would be "scandalous"? Is it the way he uses his speed to attack the CBs cushion, forcing the defender to turn his hips before he can make a proper read on the play/QB? Is it the way he one strides his cuts and explodes out of his breaks to create separation? Is it the way he attacks the ball in the air and makes plays over the top of defenders? Is it the way he eludes multiple defenders and turns short catches into long gains? Or is it the way that opposing defenses roll coverages and assign their top CB to cover him? Which coverages does he do best against? How does he work vs off-coverage, press coverage? Does he prefer outside or inside releases? Enlighten me, please. B/c IMO the stats you're using are selectively chosen, offer no context, and are more misleading than informative.
This whole thread is pointless.This is not fantasy football and thier is no way in hell they sign rice.We need possibly 3 offensive lineman,2 rbs,a te not named shockey,and a qb to compete with henne.This is a power running team not the greenbay packers.My guess is they try to bring in a lower priced speed receiver to compete with hartline and hopefully be able to double as kick returner. Why the hell would he want to come here anyway?We finished 7-9 with a suspect qb and a lame duck head coach.
Talking football in February is pointless, period. 90% of all conversations I have w/ women are pointless, but I do it anyway lol. Rice would cost less than Vince Young or Carson Palmer, and about the same amount as Kyle Orton, three guys who've been talked about as possible additions. I agree we probably wont sign him, but I'd rather give Rice 8-10 million than any of those 3 QBs. I think the point of the thread was to say that we need a speed receiver, be it thru the draft or FA b/c Bess and Marshall are a solid pair of possession WRs but we dont have a deep threat. We are built to be a running team, but it's hard to be a power running team when you have no one to keep the defense away from the LOS, hell its' hard to be a running team when you cant run the ball. But that's for an other thread... IMO we need RBs more than we need OL. But it's not what you need so much as it's what's available. This season, there is a flood of #1-#2 type WRs who are major upgrades to what we have currently. It's the perfect chance to add talent and depth w/o having to overpay. The same cant be said at OL, RB, or QB.
Technique, technique, technique. Its why he's able to create separation. He doesn't waste any movement at all. Its why he's probably the best blocking WR on the team, despite the fact that he isn't necessarily a strong guy. He has great blocking technique, and knows hows to use his leverage. Its why DBs have a tough time pressing him. Because he uses good hand technique. His body control is great, and his hands are great as well. Not to mention he's the most intelligent WR on the team, and does an amazing job reading coverages. He's not going to be fooled by a defense. On the other hand, he doesn't run in a straight line very fast, doesn't jump very high, and doesn't make circus catches. So its understandable why some wouldn't see much in him.
So what you're saying is he's basically a possession receiver who has a higher YPC? I have much appreciation for players with that skill set, but don't we already have 2 guys who rely on technique and quick separation? To clarify, his body control while running is great; however, his body control while playing the ball is not great..... and I wouldn't necessarily call his hands "great" either. They're good, but they're far from great.
I agree w/ most that. Hartline is a crafty receiver, a great blocker for his size, he uses technique, all of that. It's the physical gifts that he's lacking IMO. He doesn't have Marshall's size, strength & catch radius, or Bess' short area quickness & agility. He doesn't have a niche that makes him difficult to defend. Most of all, he's not explosive and he's not a play maker. And given what we have at split end, TE and in the slot, we need a speed guy at flanker or else our passing game is going to remain lost in the Stonehenge.
You would have to describe what you mean by "possession" receiver. Whether he relies on technique to get open down the field or pure speed isn't relevant, so long as he gets open.
Man you were right. I cant stop watching Greg Little's highlight tape, dude looks like a faster Hakeem Nicks. I prefer signing a (starter) WR in FA instead of hoping a rookie can come in learn, especially with the lockout and all. But if we can go into next season with Marshall, James Jones, Bess, Hartline & Little, we could put a hurtin' on some folks.
He's a great blocker period. I would say he was a more consistent blocker than Brand Marshall last year. Thats probably the biggest reason why he's a starter over Bess.
I would say Hartline is more agile than Bess. The guy ran a 10.9 60-yd shuttle at the combine, which is very impressive.
If he's starting for that reason then our coaches need to be fired lol. I think he's a starter over Bess b/c he's a better flanker period. Bess is a top tier slot guy but out near the numbers, he's very limited. You can take inside leverage and use the sideline vs Bess and there aren't a whole lot of places he can go. He' cant force his way inside or run by you, and good DBs are eventually going to undercut out routes & curls run by slow WRs. Hartline needs help to get vertical, but at least he can do it.
Dunno what you mean by "agility" but I'm talking quickness in and out of breaks. In that respect there is no contest between the two IMO. Bess is in and out in one stride, two at the most. Hartline is a 3-4 step guy. Even Camarillo had better feet than Hartline, he just didnt have as much speed.
You dont' really need to go any farther than the agility tests from the combine. Hartline was first in his class in the 60 yd shuttle, second in his class in the 3-cone drill, and fourth in his class in the 20-yd shuttle. They run those drills to see how fast guys get in and out of breaks. Now, you've said that Hartline isn't explosive, and you've said he's not as quick as Bess, so how in the world does he put up those numbers?
I put much more stock into what happens in pads on the field than anything that happens in shorts at a combine. The fact that you're going back to Indy to find a case where he was explosive should tell you something. I doubt he could be better than Bess in the slot, I doubt Bess will ever be more effective than him outside. What are you basing this on?
And Mickey Shuler was 6th in the league in YPC. And Marlon Moore was 7th. Add in Hartline & we must've had one hell of an explosive passing game. Oh wait... Hartline was 66th in YPC. 28th if you only count guys w/ 30+ catches.
Sidney rice is a number #1 and he is going to want to be payed like one and this regime is not going to pay for two.Like you said we should be able to find a compliment to marshall in free agency or the draft.As for rb, ingram has what ronnie brown doesn't and that is great vision and i would not be upset with us picking him at 15.I disagree with you on the ol we need a guard that can exactly get to the second level and a more physical center.
And their actions have clearly agreed with me, given the position he has been put in, and how he's been used. Because you would be paying a premium for a player rather than developing your own, taking snaps away from players merit greater, rather than lesser snap counts including the one you just traded for, attempting to solve a quarterbacking issue through not spending money on a quarterback, etc. and so on. You do realize what you're trying to do here is very transparent, right? If only I had whipped together as big a wall of dick-waiving, pointless technical questions first, then I would have the upper hand in this argument So what exactly am I leaving out?
I disagree completely. Just because Bess isn't a straight line sprinter, doesn't mean he isn't quick and agile. He gets in and out of breaks better than anyone on our team (including DBs) and he relies on his quickness and route running to get open...which happens a lot.
I don't think he's any quicker in and out of his breaks than Hartline. Bess also has the luxury of facing LBs and safeties pretty often in coverage.
