Our top offseason need should be: NNAMDI ASOMUGHA/becoming an elite defense

At the end of the season on, Shields was more consistent in coverage IMO...... And he was doing something our guys can't-----catching the ball. Lol

 

1 int, 0 sacks, and 1 FF is living up to his 1st round billing? Man you have low standards.

sorry, but I want more pruduction from a corner of his talent level..... which is why I'd like to see him in a nickel-hybrid type role.

 

There's a big difference between Nnamdi's stats and Vontae's. Nnamdi's been thrown at probably less than any CB in the league during that time. QB's fear him...... and he's as consistent as they come (when he's not playing with a sprained ankle). He doesn't need stats b/c his coverage ability is the prize. This is what I'm hoping SS will develop into, or at least close to it. Stats do matter if you're the kind of player who should be producing them..... and the last I checked, Vontae isn't a shutdown corner who QBs are deathly afraid to throw at. I guess what you're saying is the 173 dropped INTs last season mean little, right? lol.

So far, Vontae hasn't shown the same reliability or consistency, so IMO he needs to impact more in other aspects of the game to have comparable worth. If he's thrown at more, then he needs to pick more passes off, but that hasn't been his forte (even dating back to Illinois where he had 7 picks in 3 years). My point was that the kid has the talent to impact more. It was my opinion that if we put him in a nickel-hybrid role that he could be more involved in the action to where he "could" make more plays.

Charles Woodson's stats are infinitely better than Nnamdi's, but that doesn't mean he's a better player or a greater impact. It just means that they play different roles. It was my opinion that keeping Vontae outside on an island is possibly what causes his mental lapses, and that maybe if he's moved inside that it could keep him more mentally involved b/c he has that physical killer instinct, and it's possible that this killer instinct could be better utilized closer to the box.

If Vontae were shutting WRs down on a weekly basis than I would care less about his stats. I'd be praising him for routinely locking guys down. So since that's yet to be the case, I'd like to see what he can do in a position that allows him to have more sacks, more FFs, etc. I've thought he plays best when he has the play in front of him and can better react to the play and/or the QB..... and I also feel the short to intermediate aspect of his game is where he thrives b/c he can better use his explosiveness. IMO he seems to be the most instinctive when the play is in front of him, when he can see it develop. I watch his decisiveness when he missiles in on a running back, and I think to myself "damn I'd like to see that ability utilized more often".

So when I bring up his stats, I'm slightly disappointed b/c I feel he's the kind of physical, aggressive, instinctive, athlete who's capable of impacting more than what he did in 2010. Watching Woodson's impact the past 2 years in his hybrid role (166 tkls, 4 sacks, 31 PBUs, 11 INTs, 4 TDs, and 9 FFs) only makes want to see Vontae's talents in a similar role that allows him to duplicate some of that success rather than the 105 tkls, 0 sacks, 23 PBUs, 5 INTs, 1 TD, and 1 FF he's had the past 2 years.

Chris Clemons wont give us that type of impact b/c he's not that type of player. I haven't seen it during the 6 years I've watched him, so I don't expect it to start now.

SS24 looks to be more of a quality cover corner than a Woodson type near-the-box playmaker, and his 90 tkls, 0 sacks, and 0 FFs (and his 74 tkls & 0 FFs over 2 years at Utah) reinforce my feelings on it. He's not the explosive, physical type guy I want hovering around the box or on speedy slot WRs, and I don't think he has the same burst or athleticism to be as much of an impact at or behind the LOS as Vontae, and I don't think he provides the versatility that Vontae does who had 78 tkls and 3 FFs in his Junior year alone.

It's my opinion that if Vontae is around the action and is coached up in such a role, that he has the potential to become a much greater playmaker and impact player than he currently is.

I feel that as SS continues to develop, the he could become one of the more effective and reliable man-cover corners in the league. I don't prefer Vontae in this type of roll b/c I don't feel it plays to his strengths b/c I believe his instinctiveness, suddenness, and burst make him better suited in more off man or zone coverage where these skills translate more effectively....... which I feel is why he had more impact plays in last year's quarters coverage.

Vontae's such a quick twitch athlete that I'd like to see him in a role where he can use that to his advantage rather than turning and running up field. It's my opinion that he may never become a great man-cover corner b/c he IS so quick-twitched and instinctively reactionary that he may always be prone to the occasional pump fake or double move. IMO if we move him inside and have him in a position that allows him to play within a shorter range and with the play in front of him more often (including playing laterally), then it might negate his occasional problems.

I think it would benefit Nolan's D and our potential to bring more pressure if we could get a reliable strong man-corner opposite SS24 who's better suited for the role. IMO Nnamdi and SS represent a perfect pair for this defense. It frees up Vontae for a role he can be more productive in; it frees up our safeties to help out a bit more else where (which is needed considering the quality TEs that continue to beat us up); and it allows us to bring more pressure.


I know I'm being wordy, so I apologize for that. lol.

 

I think this is a good point, and I don't have a problem with it. What I do have a problem with is I dont feel this plays to Vontae's strengths. I think it's great that he's only allowed 530 yards to 566 snaps, but IMO there's so much more untapped potential to his game than merely relegating him to a traditional coverage role or judging him on how well he can stay on a WR's hip. If we're talking about SS24, then I'd be happy & content with that b/c I feel that's the role he belongs.

They might have put Vontae in more challenging roles, but he made a bigger impact as a rookie in quarter's coverage than he did this year in more man IIRC. It's my opinion that if we keep him in this same role that he may never max out his potential or become an elite player. I'd rather have a role that better suits the player rather than forcing a player to fit the role, especially one as talented as Davis.

Leigh Bodden's lack of production in Detroit's zone coverage scheme is a related example. Bodden had more FFs (3) in Detroit's zone than he's ever had elsewhere, but his coverage ability dropped off considerably compared to when he played man in the years directly before and after. 11 PBUs and 1 INT in 16 games (15 starts) in Detroit in 2008 compared to 33 PBUs, 11 INTs, and 135 return yards including a TD in 31 games (30 starts) in Cleveland and NE. The role didn't play to his strengths and it showed.

 

That's way too much of a blanket statement. I care about it IF the player possesses the ability to make those stats happen. Is Vontae a lockdown corner yet to where his stats are insignificant? No, he's not. He's not Revis, Nnamdi, or Bailey. If he were, then I could care less about his stats b/c I'd know that his contribution comes from shutting down his side of the field along with how that affects the rest of the defense.

Until Vontae becomes an elite corner who is rarely thrown at, he should be contributing in other aspects of the game, IE: stuff that shows up in stat column. My disappointment stems from the belief that he DOES have the talent & ability to impact in other areas.

5'9, 180 pound Drew Coleman from the Jets, a guy who was drafted in the 6th round and only started 4 games last year, had 4 sacks, 5 FFs, and an INT in 2010 for Pete sake..... and you're gonna throw this "disappointment" nonsense at me?

Are you honestly going to tell me that we shouldn't want more than 1 FF in 2 seasons from Vontae considering his size, strength, talent, and physicalness?

Is it unfair to want more than ZERO sacks in 2 years from a 1st round CB who has enough size, speed, burst, and physicality to produce them? Is it unfair to want the most gifted CB on our team to pull our sack total from zero to at least 1 as an unit?

Vontae ranked 70th in passes deflected. Am I honestly not supposed to be disappointed in that either?

You can say stats dont matter, but when your entire coverage unit (including Safeties) has 8 INTs among 10 players, then those INT stats absolutely DO matter..... and the last I checked, Vontae is supposed to be the top guy of this group. So yes, I do measure him in part by his INTs b/c his lone INT (104th worst) does absolutely NOTHING to help out or make up for a group that sees more balls dropped than a nursery. Someone has to step up, and until someone does, then ALL of their stats matter if they're all not producing any.

What's next? Not being disappointed if Wake finishes with 3 sacks or Marshall has another 3 TD season? Can I be disappointed if our ground game takes a huge crap on the field again?

If you can show me a shutdown corner on our team, then I'll gladly measure him by that skill rather than the stats he does or doesn't produce. And again, this isn't about me being disappointed in Vontae's "lack of stats" as much as it is about him not being played to his strengths to allow him to produce more.

 

Is it a coincidence that the top 2 DBs in the NFL in sacks come from the 2 teams with the best man cover corners in the league?

Oakland has 2 DBs tied for 1st in sacks.
The Jets have 1 DB tied for 1st and 1 tied for 5th.
Combined, the Jets & Raiders account for 4 of the top 8 DBs in sacks.


The Jets secondary had 11 sacks last year, with only 1 of those coming during the first 4 games when Revis was out or hurt.
The Raiders had 8.
Miami had 4.

I'd like to think that adding Nnamdi to this talented defense would allow us to bring more effective pressure than we currently do. Maybe we could move from 10th in sacks to surpassing Oakland into the #2 spot. IMO a guy of Wake's caliber would greatly appreciate the help since we presently don't have another solid pass rusher to ease some of his burden or take advantage of his double teams etc.



Look at the Jets in the playoffs:
Here they are with one of the worst QBs in the NFL going against Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Ben Roethlisberger.

With respect, anyone who doesn't think Nnamdi would be worth the money only needs to look at these 3 games.

First they shut down HOFer Peyton, while Revis holds Wayne to 1 catch for 1 yard. You guys complain about our inability to do anything until we get an elite QB------- well lookie here>>> freakin Sanchez walks away the victory over Peyton with a huge thank you to Revis (and their secondary) along with a ground game that had 2 TDs, 169 yards rushing, and a 5 yard avg. Did Sanchez's crappy 18 completions, 189 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT, and 62 rating cost them the game like many of you wine about regarding Henne? No, it didn't!!..... b/c they have other ways to win games. QB play wasn't the reason we lost 9 games. Our ENTIRE team play was the reason.

Next up is 2010 MVP, Tom Brady. The Jets' secondary was so tight, it allowed their front 7 to absolutely beat the snot out of Tom all game, and held him to 7 pts through 57 minutes. Their D passed him around like a newbie in Leavenworth. He looked absolutely stymied out there. NY's cruddy QB was the beneficiary of 2 early short field TDs thanks to their coverage, and the rest was history. The Jets' used their awesome coverage, strong D, 6.72 YPC on the ground, and a few big plays from their playmakers to beat the mighty Brady & BB. They put Mark in easy situations to throw the ball and make plays b/c the entire burden of the team wasn't rested on his shoulders.

Lastly was Big Ben, who was held to 10 completions, 133 yards, 0 TDs, 2 INTs, and a 35 QB rating. Ben was stuffed. Mike Wallace had 1 catch for 6 yards (vs the 53 yard bomb he blew us up with----- we definitely win that game if not for that 1 play), and Hines was held to 2 grabs for 14 yards (compared to the 7 for 141, 1 TD, and 43 yarder he busted on us). The continued theme of the day here again: DEFENSE. Even though Ben was shut down, they picked up some yards on the ground, and the Steeler D returned a fumble for a TD & stuffed a late goal line opportunity..... and those 2 defensive plays were the difference makers. These were 3 games where defense was the deciding factor.

The other common element, to reiterate, you DONT need elite QB play to get to the AFC Championship game or the SB, so please stop with all this "we're not doing anything till we get a QB" garbage, so stop scapegoating ALL of our woes onto 1 freakin position.
***NY beat Peyton despite Sanchez's 0 TD, 1 INT, 62 Rating performance.
***Then a 2nd HOF'er (Brady) gets throttled by another outstanding defensive performance.
***Lastly, Pitt beats NY despite Ben's 0 TD, 2 INT, 35 Rating performance.

It's a passing league folks. If you wanna beat the top QBs in this passing league <when you don't have one of your own>, then you need good corners, and you probably need an elite one. I don't care about beating the Joe Schmoes of the league during the regular season. I care about beating the elite teams when it counts, and we still are yet to do that. IMO you bring a guy like Nnamdi in to help shut down the top QBs in the league when you're facing a 1 loss and you're out battle. If I have to go through Brady possibly 3 times to get to the SB and probably Peyton or Rivers as well, then I have to ask myself what guy out there will help me the most.

Seriously, think about it for a second. We're in the playoffs and have Rivers, then Peyton, then Brady to get to the SB, while we have Henne at QB. Do we rumble through that obstacle course by attempting to go to to toe with them?...... or do we try to bottle up their top targets, smack them around, & take them out of their game? I want the latter with Nnamdi. We can beat those guys with consistency, turnovers, not giving up the big play (our achilles heel), and short field opportunities. With an elite D and an upgraded offense via the draft, we could make a run at the SB IMO. Our D isn't consistent enough to even be considered great yet, so I don't think we can make a run at anything with an improved offense that lacks a franchise QB and an inconsistent D. We need a D that can be lights out for 3 games in a row against possibly the best offenses in the AFC..... and then a 4th against the best of the NFC. 3 out of 4 might look great during the regular season, but it doesn't count here....... hence needing the consistency.

Not going after Nnamdi is almost like sex (or spanking it for some of you)>>>>>> It's like getting to the point where you're about to fill the belly button..... almost there, almost there, almost there....... annnnnnd stop! You're like "WTF?!" "I was just about to finish and now you want me to do the wheelbarrow?!" Instead of flip-flopping back and forth from offense to defense and back again, can we just finish one of them already and make it great so that we can at least make the playoffs? It's a lot easier to get there by becoming dominant in 1 area of the game rather than constantly trying to even both sides out.

 

IF an offense tries to avoid Nnamdi, it means that one of their WRs is completely taken out of the game and a safety can focus on helping the other side. I'm not sure how that's not an impact. lol.

 

Since 2006, the Raiders ranked 1st, 8th, 10th, 7th, and 2nd in passing yards allowed...... and of the 99 passing TDs they allowed since 06, Nnamdi was responsible for only 1 of them IIRC. That's what Nnamdi does for a defense.

Like you pointed out, he changes the way offenses have to play him b/c he can take a mediocre secondary and make it look good....... But what happens when offenses can NOT just run on you to avoid passing? What if we're talking about a stout Miami run defense that allows only 3.6 YPC, 8 TDs, and just 4 runs of 20+ yards? Where does an offense go then? They cant try to hide behind their run game vs us.



I don't think it's fair to compare Vontae to Nnamdi or any of Nnamdi's stats........ and it's hard to draw conclusions about Oakland's defense b/c they sucked at almost everything except his position for a while. lol.


I've seen the breakdown of Nnamdi. It's absolutely sick the amount of respect he gets. I did a huge study into it the last time he was a FA. He gets no balls thrown his way. He doesn't have many INTs or PBUs b/c very few passes thrown his way are even catchable by the WR.

Questioning Nnamdi's INTs would be like questioning Albert Pujols for not hitting any dingers this year despite being intentionally walked 600 times. It's like teams only throw at him b/c they have to keep things honest, so that he doesn't walk into the stands and grab a hot dog or something. Passes his way are mostly low risk attempts that can either be caught away from Nnamdi or not caught at all.

What's the point of throwing at a guy when there's almost as good a chance that the pass hits Nnamdi's fingers instead? In 2008, Asomugha got his mitts on 2 more passes than his targets did........ and since 2006, he's scored as many TDs off passes thrown his way as his targets have (1).


2007: 35 passes thrown his way. Only 10 completed. 7 deflected. 1 was picked. 0 TDs.
2008: 27 attempts. Only 8 completed. 9 deflected. 1 was picked. 0 TDs. (For 8 weeks he allowed 0 yards to a WR he played opposite)
2009: 27 attempts. Only 13 completed. 4 deflected. 1 was picked. 0 TDs.
2010: 33 attempts. Only 13 completed. 6 deflected. 0 TDs. Only 205 yards. (and that was with a sprained ankle for half of the year)


He was probably thrown at less times in the past 4 years than Vontae or Sean were all of last season..... and by the time he retires, he'll have possibly given up less TDs in his career than our guys do in one year. He makes the best receivers in the game look like they belong on the practice squad.

 

Tom Brady and his multiple WR set would beg to differ. He was beaten up all game and sacked 5 times in the playoffs...... and it wasn't b/c NY has an elite pass rusher; it was b/c his receivers were covered up.

NY clearly showed that a great secondary can shut down the top passing teams in the league while allowing their defense to rack up 40 sacks in a season (1 more than we had with Wake) despite not having ANY elite pass rushers. Bryan Thomas led NY with a whopping 6 sacks for the season, so in this case your theory doesn't hold up. In this case, the top coverage team (NY) trumps the team with the elite pass rusher (Miami). The elite pass rusher (Wake) accumulates more sacks on his own, but his team ends up with less total sacks than the coverage team.

 

I'm not saying it needs to be one or the other b/c I feel it can clearly come from either. Ben was shut down in the title game. It was one of the worst passing games of his career. Their defense is what helped them out.

IMO both ways can have devastating results. Can you imagine if Wake were on the Jets in the playoff games? I'd love to get another outstanding pass rusher here who impacts immediately, but since we're not getting any in FA, and the draft most likely doesn't give us one, then I'd take the coverage route and grab Nnamdi. We can either spend time talking about something that has a low likelihood of happening, or we can act on something and grab a guy who impacts the pass defense.

 

That's the key, and I'm sure most of us would agree with you here. It's one thing to get a great corner who offers a moderate improvement at a high cost, but it's another to get one of the top CBs to ever play the game. We're talking about a guy who hasn't allowed a TD since 2006 in a league that's become more QB-WR friendly.

 

Let me ask you this. If we had Nnamdi here the past 4 years and you saw him consistently shutting down the best of the best, not allowing a single TD, and was a huge reason we hypothetically went to the AFC Championship game 2 years in a row with Henne, would you be advocating us letting him walk?...... or would you be saying: "We need to resign the greatest impact player on our team?"

 

exactly. Our defense is very good as it is, and we've seen first hand how it can win games for us despite our offensive woes, but our problem is consistency. You rarely see elite defenses like the Steelers or Ravens #!t the bed multiple times during a season. They pretty much bring it week in and week out. There's a consistency to their play that allows them to say "Hey, place the burden on us b/c we're gonna win it for you."

We don't have that kind of identity yet; we have games where our defense is flat, and our offense (the weakest part of our team) is subsequently forced to carry us. That kind of approach & confusion isn't conducive to winning as far as I'm concerned. Adding Nnamdi gives us an identity IMO. Nnamdi takes our defense from inconsistently good to consistently great...... and consistently great means less stress or pressure on an inconsistent offense. A team needs to find a definitive strength that it can rely on if it plans to compete with the best. IMO an elite defense with an average offense will consistently win more games than a good offense paired with a good defense. With the latter, you might beat up on the bottom half of the league and go 9-7 or 10-6, but you'll eventually need an elite defense to beat Brady, Manning, Rivers, Rodgers, or Brees <if your offense is still developing or QB play hasn't fully arrived>.

Fighting is a great analogy IMO. Let's take 2 fighters. Both are equal in every possible sense. Heck, let's just say they're identical twins, an this is an entirely controlled experiment. They spend the same amount of time training and are both black belts in Krav Maga. If they square off against each other, can you really predict who wins the most out of 100 times? It could be like flipping a coin. Now let's change it up and say that one twin decided half way through his KM training that he'd switch to a new art form, leaving him a master of neither but proficient at both. Does that change the outcome after 100 fights? Does his knowledge of 2 forms mean he now has a better chance of beating his twin's single form? He probably gets his a$$ kicked. That's like us IMO. We could try and build up our offense to an acceptable level while ignoring defense, and that will help us win more games, but we won't start curb-stompin b!tches till our defense attains its black belt.

We don't know how our offense will turn out this year, so I'm not gonna assume that it'll become a dependable part of our game. However, I do know that our defense is a player or 2 away from ranking top 3 in scoring for the next 5 years (if it stays healthy and remains well coached). That's how we get to the SB IMO. To think that our offense <in it's current state> can be relied upon to get us there is insanity. I think our offense can be good enough to do what the Jets do, but the last thing I want is rely on them to win shoot outs vs an offensive powerhouse b/c our defense showed up flat.

 

I'd be all for Joseph, too, if he hits the market. With more spread formations being used, I'd like to see an upgrade or more consistency to our back 4, and Joseph's speed and man-cover skills could be a great neutralizer.

Nnamdi is still my preference because trying to throw or score on him is like trying to break out of Alcatraz. He's been shutting everyone down with little to no help over the top and a weak pass rush for most of his career. Revis is a squid compared to Nnamdi b/c at least he gets some help over the top and is benefited by stronger QB pressure. It takes Nnamdi about 4 years to see as many balls thrown his way as Revis does. When a QB sees Revis, he's like "Maybe I can squeeze it in there if I'm careful"....... but when he sees Nnamdi he's like "F*** this!".

Joseph had an outstanding 09 year and he was still thrown at 96 times, 56 of those were completed for 690 yards and 3 TDs.

In 2008, Nnamdi was thrown at between 29 times, with 9 completions, 0 TDs, and only 144 yards (with 46 coming from an under thrown ball to Vincent Jackson). He allowed 2 catches over an 8 game span in the middle of the season. This is basically a typical year for him.

Compare this to Cromartie in 2008: thrown at 88 times, giving up 980 yards, and 4 TDs.

IMO you go after Nnamdi b/c of the ridiculous consistency and work ethic. The top corners in this league would be lucky to have one of Nnamdi's worst years.

 

GM,

Regarding your Andre Johnson vs Nnamdi statement:

I know that in 3 games since 2006, he's caught no more than 4 passes for 30 yards & 0 TDs TOTAL against him...... and I don't think there was much if any safety help over the top. I've heard him state in the past that he has his side and they just double up the other.

And if my numbers are correct, in 2 games vs Nnamdi this year: Brandon Lloyd's total was no more than 1 catch for 19 yards...... and Dwayne Bowe caught no more than 2 for 17..... with 0 TDs each.

*****I found some funny stuff in a fantasy football forum back in 2008:

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