D. Bess- A Closer Look

so what you're saying is you want Bess off the field, only you prefer to do it with a TE who might see 25% of the snaps, where as I prefer to do it with a WR who could see as much as 50%. Why is it ok for you to take Bess off the field but I can't?

 

gotchya. So it's ok for you to advocate taking Bess off the field, yet you argue against me doing it. Oh the irony. Can you be a bigger hypocrite?

 

I never argued against you doing wanting to take Bess off the field. Just depends on who he's being taken off for and in what context.

 

royal and scheffler's stats aren't the point. They posed a greater ability to attack a defense, and although Marshall's stats appeared similar, he picked up more chunk yardage because of it, which is the difference maker.

 

the context would be to give us the best chance to attack a defense and for the greatest percentage of time possible so that we can get the ground game going easier with less opposition while allowing Marshall a greater ability to earn his $40 mill. That should be the focus of this offense rather Bess catching a short pass on first down and unfortunately not doing anything special with it.

 

No, thats the reasoning. Not the context.

The context would be down and distance, formation, etc. I'd much rather have Hartline on the field in 2 WR sets.

 

Your exactly right....we are in need of an upgrade at TE and WR speed. I totally get what your saying its all about how the WR's compliment eachother, for example Wes Welker is a Pro Bowl WR but if you had 3 Wes Welkers on the field it just wouldnt work. Even with Tom brady.

And we have Chad Henne who granted has been put in some bad spots with the playcalling, lack of a running game, or a WR who can get deep etc. but still just makes some totally STUPID throws.

We cant fix ALL of this is one offseason, personally I feel you HAVE to fix the interior OL before anything else because a Solid OL can make a good back look great, no threat of a running game can make a bad QB look horrible. It all intertwines and while I would LOVE to have all these issues dealt with now, we have to default to priority imo.

 

I feel I could with confidence name about 14-15 TE's that I would perfer to have, and this is a perfect example of what TP is talking about because you have Marshall who demands the most attention from 15 and in and basically same thing with Davone. Now it makes more sense to have a TE who's skill set is to get behind the LB's and make the S raise an eyebrow aswell.

This isnt to say a peticular TE would be "better" than Fasano, just better for US.

 

I don't know what we are running circles around. We need speed, we don't have it.

 

True.

But more importantly we need a better interior OL, a more complimentary TE, speed at RB, a consistent QB, then I say we worry about a #2WR.

 

You're using falsely accurate stats to try and back an argument. Nice try. That's extremely weak. As a rookie Royal caught 91 passes for 980 yards and 5 TDs. One of those was a 91 yard TD. Tell me one FREAKIN time where Bess has come close to making a big play like that! His numbers haven't declined because he sucks; they've declined because defenses pay him much more attention than they do Bess, which is one contributing factor to Brandon Lloyd catching 1448 yards, 14 TDs, and an 18.8 avg and Brandon catching 10 TDs in 09.

Royal was UNDER PRODUCTIVE (not horrible--- get it straight) in 2009 b/c of how McDaniels ran his offense where Eddie was OFTEN used as a decoy on the boundary (rather than the slot) to draw extra coverage DOWN FIELD to help open things up for his teammates.



Per yahoo sports article:http://sports.yahoo.com/fantasy/blog/roto_arcade/post/Noise-Eddie-Royal-traveling-down-McDevil-s-Hi?urn=fantasy-193110

He went from an elite slot receiver in 08 to an outside decoy guy in a new offense in 09 (where Marshall caught his best TD total to date). That's why Eddie wasn't productive. It hasn't changed all that much in 2010 because when defenses pay him attention, Denver went to Lloyd instead of Marshall, which is partially why Lloyd tore teams up during the first 8 games when DCs weren't expecting him to do as much damage as he did.

 

I wouldn't say then worry about it. I would say worry about all of them at the same time. Unless our FO can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Other than the OL, the TE/RB/QB can mask some of the things at WR yes. So can a WR mask some of those other things. But I put QB first, RB second, and TE/WR almost tied (well TE first).

 

it is amazing the depth you will go to make Henne look like a good quarterback. Way to buy into some blatent coach speak. Royal was terrible that year. No defense tries very hard to take away a player who isn't productive.

 

It shocks me how enamored with Bess some people are to where it blinds them into thinking no one else in the league has his ability. Sorry to burst your bubbles but Royal can do everything Bess can, only faster. He can run more routes on the tree than Bess can and stretch the field to attack the safeties; he can return punts; and he can pick up chunk yardage that Bess can only dream of. Defenses have to pay him attention where as Bess scares no one.

If Royal broke his ankle, he'd be Davone Bess. Bess needs a perfectly thrown back-shoulder pass along the sideline to catch the ball vertically. Royal's routes are precise (like Davone's); his hands are solid (like Davone's); he's a nightmare on a LB (more so than Davone); he has a 36' vertical; he can accelerate to 10 yards in 1.47 seconds while possessing a 2nd gear to pull away from defenders, which Bess cant. He can get behind a corner (which Davone cant). There is virtually no aspect of Bess's game that trumps Royals'. In 2008 as a rookie, when the league wasn't cognizant of Royal's threat and didn't pay him extra attention (just as they don't pay extra attention to Bess now), Eddie lit defenses up. The difference between their stats is due to Royal receiving much more attention than Bess does.

All the stats in the world dont mean squat in this case.

Yup, Bess can do all the things that Royal does throughout his highlight clip: He can definitely return 2 punts/kicks to the house in 1 game. He can also catch a WR screen and split the defense for a long TD. He can run by a CB on a vertical for a 92 yard TD. He can catch a pass down field and separate from the defender for a TD. <lots of sarcasm>.

[video=youtube;99YckceCFhc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99YckceCFhc[/video]


(particularly notice the 3 defenders on him during the TD catch at the 2:00 minute mark. Yup, Davone gets that much attention all the time).

[video=youtube;yYj3i0-BfgY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYj3i0-BfgY[/video]

 

LMAO. It's amazing the depth you'll go to in order to defend a receiving lacking in many aspects of the game. This has nothing to do with Henne. You have no freakin clue what you're talking about. NONE. Bess running a 4.64 and no ability to stretch the field has zilch to do with Chad. Bess's inability to take a short pass to the house has nada to do with Henne. Bess's weak punt return ability has nothing to do with Henne. Bess's physical inability to run the entire route tree has absolutely NOTHING to do with Henne. Bess not drawing attention to open up the field for Marshall has freakin squat to do with Henne. If anything, Henne has made Bess look good b/c Chad's helped turn him into one of the best 3rd down converters in the NFL. Unfortunately, the game is played on 1st & 2nd down, too.

Your arguments are so weak it's not funny. Cmon, keep deflecting. You have yet to make ONE SINGLE VALID POINT other than infantile personal attacks, but I guess that's to be expected when you don't have an argument.

There are times to use stats for an argument, and there are times when using these stats make someone look ignorant. Right now, you're falling into the latter. Just sayin.

 

I'd rather have Hart than Bess in 2 WR sets, too. Unfortunately we don't run 2 TE sets all the time, which you already know.

How do you recommend attacking a defense in 3+ WR sets outside of running Marshall & Hartline deep? That kinda sucks using your best player as a decoy so that you can put the ball into your slowest players hands doesnt it?

Honestly, what if you actually want to get Marshall the ball underneath in 3+ sets so he can make a play? Will having only one guy on the perimeter, Hartline, (who isn't even a real vertical threat by definition) suffice for attacking the safeties in order to maximize Marshall underneath or up the seam? No, it wont, and you cant tell me that it will.

 

Yes, in 2009 he was worse over 10 yds thanks to McDaniels' offense and Orton's lolipop arm. However he had considerably more 20+ and 40+ yarders b/c he had more space to make bigger plays. 1100 yards & an 11 yard average with many big plays has an entirely different effect than 1100 yards, an 11 yard avg with few big plays.

Brandon's longest gains:
2008: 47, 35, 34, 34, 32, 24, 21, 21, 21, 21, 20, 20, 20 (all told, he had 16 20+ and 1 40+)
2009: 75, 51, 49, 40, 33, 24, 23, 22 (11 20+ and 4 40+)
2010: 46, 40, 35, 30, 25, 23, 21 (9 20+ and 2 40+)

He had more "impact yards/plays" in Denver than he did here.

 

[video=youtube;fI0rZdnIw7w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI0rZdnIw7w[/video]

Picture this guy in the slot, attacking the seam full speed at the snap of the ball. By the time the QB gets to the top of his drop, the safeties will either be turning to run or getting roasted. And here comes Mr. Marshall, running a dig (square in) route behind Harvin at 12-15 yards, and he's open because the safeties have to respect Harvin, the corners are playing outside leverage, and the LBs cant drop underneath a 15 yd dig w/o leaving Fasano WIDE open on a drag route or our new RB WIDE open in the flats or the hook zone. But it all starts with threatening the safeties, something that Bess will simply never be able to do. Or we could put Marshall in the slot and have him run the seam while Harvin runs deep on the outside and Hartline runs deep on the other side. Do that a few times (3 verticals), anchor the CBs with flat routes while you're at it, and it'll be bye bye Cover 2.

Speed gentlemen, speed. There is no substitute for it.

 

Thank you. I was about to look for a video of one of these guys doing what you nicely explained. However, I'm sure it'll somehow be twisted into something Henne related.

Amen to the highlighted part. If only we had such a luxury that most of the league possesses. lol.

 

I don't have a problem with using 2 TE sets to attack cover 2, but I don't think we should be limited to ONLY that. After all, spread formations help defeat it, and it makes sense to me that if you want to attack a cover 2 (through the air) that you'd be better off doing so with more receivers on the field rather than less....... so why cant we do both?---> from 3+ WR spread AND from 2 TE sets?

The problem I currently have is when we're in our base 3-1-1 formation (3 WRs, 1 TE, and 1 RB) where we SHOULD be able to either run or pass effectively without the defense knowing what's coming. Marshall, Hartline, Bess, and Fasano allow us little flexibility. Sure, we can use them in a 3WR set with Fasano in tight, but how about when we want to go to a 4 WR set or empty backfield without subbing players in to tip our hand?

Marshall--- Bess--- Fasano--- Hartline arent exactly the 4 guys you want running verticals to open up the underneath for a speed back like Taiwan Jones to destroy a defense and defeat a cover 2. That's pretty darn crappy actually. Seriously, does anyone who likes Bess & Fasano want to see them running verticals simultaneously?

Now compare that say Marshall----- Jernigan (or Greg Little/Sims Waker/Jacoby Jones)------ Vergil Green------- Hartline (and DeAngelo Williams as the back). We could go from 3 wide to 4 wide to empty backfield without having to sub anyone in. It would allow us the versatility to move Marshall around the field and mismatch him on LBs if the defensive personnel is set up for it...... and if the Oline becomes capable of blocking, we could go from pounding it inside on one play to running 4 verticals the next. You can't do that with our current group.

 

Your forgetting OL wich is the key to our offense improving.

And yea they can draft 6 different positions but all those problems aren't likely to be solved in one offseason

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I think he's quite good too........ when we need to pick up a critical 8 yards.

However, I respectfully believe the Jets would disagree with your Welker statement. NY didn't draft Kyle Wilson as a strategy to neutralize Davone Bess. I'll give you a hint who they DID do this for-----> the guy who caught 15 balls for 192 yards during his team's last meeting vs the Jets before the 2010 draft, and his name sounds like Les Shmelker. lol. The Jets have since held him to 175 yards in 3 games with an 8.75 avg.

However, if NY did this to neutralize Welker, then the same theory should hold true against Bess....... hence Bess catching 1 pass for 6 yards in our last game verse NY.

When Buffalo's secondary was healthy in 2009, Bess caught 6 passes for 51 yards & 0 TDs in 2 games. That's 25 YPG and 8.5 avg.
In 6 games vs the Jets: Bess caught 21 passes for 176 yards & 0 TDs. That's 29 YPG and 8.4 Avg.
With Leigh Bodden most likely healthy in 2011, Bess could potentially be as limited vs NE, too.

These are 6 conference games in a season where Davone's production could be hindered. That's a big chunk. I'm not sure how that gives us the greatest chance to win during the course of a season. I'm not saying to get rid of Bess by any means, but we do need more options, more versatility, more speed.

 

I think they show potential. I would bring in another speedster to compete from the draft, but unless one of the top two WRs drops to us, I wouldn't consider anything more than a late round guy. In FA there could be some options, but I wouldn't spend big. Maybe the guy from Jax as long as it's a low risk thing.

 

You know when you have little argument you go after the person you are having the argument went. There you go looking at 40 times again.

Unfoturnately Bess had made Henne look much better on 3rd down. his ability to run routes and actually make some nice circus catches, or the use of quickness to convert the first down has helped Henne a lot.

Wow, not one single valid point. Talk about being completely biased. It is amazing how much you are in love with henne. You cannot even see that Eddie Royal was terrible when Marshall was there. It is funny how stats mean everything when you use them, however when someone else does they are useless. it is funny how that works.

No defense ever builds their defense around a receiver who is having as bad of a year as Eddie Royal. The NFL is a what have you done for me lately league.

 

The ideal scenario would be to get a Wr who can stretch the field vertically. Coupled with Marshall on the other side, you can then use Bess, and Hartline in the slot. I would prefer Bess most of the time because he is one of the better Wr's on the team at running routes, and he does not drop the ball often.

You get that outside threat, and have a TE who can split the seam of a defense and I damnt near gaurantee Bess' YAC improves tremendously.

 

I think Moore has a mental block where he doesn't play well when it counts. he is a decent route runner with good speed.

Wallace is a player who if he decides to work very hard at becoming a great wide receiver he will become a great wide receiver. his talent is really great.

 

that would be ideal, it would also be ideal to have good play from the quarterback.

 

I don't think any poster can realistically deny that fact. Some may say they think Henne could provide better play with those options filled but me, I hope they can also find some equal to better competition at Qb and let them duke it out.

Henne has shown flashes of being that Qb but too many times we've seen him show that he can be a bonehead as well. The first part tells me he should get the chance to compete.

 

Moore should not be on the roster. Wallace, I'm okay with.

 

I hope he does. Man do I hope he does.