Oh, it's absolutely possible. Probably not likely given you see Rhodes clearly running parallel and looks like he's going to mid-field on the slot receiver, and if he managed to take steps towards the line of scrimmage after that and still manage to recover enough to be closer than Revis on the play, Rhodes has either amazing speed or he's magic and can teleport. No, but you've got to be reasonably successful doing it. Ginn wasn't, your entire idea is that Ginn forced teams to not use Cover-2 vs. us. Meanwhile, you're sitting here and arguing about how Kerry Rhodes probably got sucked in on a play-action while the deep safety in a Cover-2, and providing a quote on how you've got to have safety coverage over underneath coverage on Ginn. While patting yourself on the back, amazingly. Speed does sort of come into play in situations other than deep, and coverage also exists at levels other than "deep". That's avoiding the question. Please, tell me what coverage involves a safety over the top of coverage underneath that is not either Cover-2 or essentially the same for our purposes. That's not even a halfway reasonable cop-out. Please, what are the Cover-2 zone teams out there that the Dolphins struggled against last season.
Disgustipate, instead of going round and round here, can you share what coverage type you feel we had the most frequent difficulty facing? Also, lets say you had 2 Brian Hartlines: the current one..... and one who runs a 4.3. Would either of these versions offer a better contribution to beating cover 2 zone than the other? If so, why?
Saw a behind the defense camera angle on the play. Looks like Quarters to me. Revis is outside leverage, Rhodes is clearly influenced by either the play fake or by the fact that the slot WR got a clean/open release, cant say which, maybe a bit of both. Revis running with Ginn tells me its not Cover 2, Leonhard arriving on scene tells me it wasn't Cover 3 or Cover 1, no corner over the slot and the LB not running w/ the slot WR tells me it wasn't man. If it was quarter, Rhodes would be responsible for the dig route that Ginn pretended to run and Revis shouldve used the dig fake to get back on top of the play, but he couldn't, wonder why? It was pure speed that made the play. Revis is in press, a common tactic vs Ginn, to take away his SPEED. But Revis misses the jam, and Rhodes bites on the slot/play fake, meaning Ginn has a clear path to the end zone. Henne sure looks confident in Ginn's speed. He doesnt even bother with a pump fake to sell the dig-go, he just takes a few hitches and lets it fly, counting on Ginn's SPEED to create the necessary separation. If that's Bess or Hartline running the same route, Henne cant afford to throw it as far and Rhodes/Revis or both woulda been there in time to make a play. SPEED. IMO teams didn't cover 2 us much in 08-09 b/c we had a successful running game, but when Ginn was i the game, the safety help was primarily focused on him. On another note, notice how Ginn reaches the 18 yd line about a yd & a half ahead of Revis, who's not slow by any stretch. Then as Ginn slows down slightly to make the catch (Henne under threw him) Revis has not made up any ground and may even be a half step further behind than he was just a few strides earlier. In fact has the ball is hitting Ginn's hands Revis is already down shifting and conceding the TD. That is SPEED. Hartline, Bess, Marshall? Not happening. Absolutely. But we dont want to bore the casual posters w/ talk about eating cushions, forcing hip turns etc. For instance, how close can the average DB allow Hartline to get before he has to come out of his backpedal? And Tedd Ginn? Same question. All zones have underneath coverage, the only difference is who's responsible for the underneath routes. If you're talking about the CBs having underneath responsibility, obviously it's cover 2. Not that CBs ever covered the flats vs our offense, we never bothered to send anyone out there so the DBs didnt bother. Buffalo, Minnesota & Chicago were the only Cover 2 teams we faced last year and we scored 36 points in 4 games (I didn't count Misi's TD). The rest of the teams, NE, Cleveland, Tennesee, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh & Detroit arent Cover 2 teams and outside of Pitt, none of them had much of a 4 man rush. Those teams played Cover 2 b/c they figured it would work, and it did. And they did it without a Freeney, a Peppers, or Jared Allen that Cover 2 teams need b/c if yo cant get there w/ 4 then you cant play Cover 2. Of course all of the teams had success anyway b/c even though they didnt get much pressure, our passing game couldnt take advantage. We were too busy max protecting and relying on our 3 WRs to get open against 7 man coverages. Hopefully Daboll will have a better plan. BTW, the 3 games where we didnt see much Cover 2? The 1st Jets game, Green Bay and Oakland AKA Henne's (entire offense's) 3 best games of the season, BY FAR. Not a coincidence.
You're right, GM, the Jets were in quarters....... so the last thing that should've happened was Ginn getting behind them, no? Isn't one of the goals of cover 4 to keep the play in front of you and not give up the big pass play?...... which means Ginn shouldn't have been behind Revis OR Rhodes, correct? I also thought Rhodes admitted to either partial or full blame on the play.
If I'm a Jets fan its all Rhodes' fault b/c Revis is kinda like our Jake Long. Long can "allow" 3 sacks vs Chicago and get a pass b/c his shoulder was hurt, but if Carey allows those same sacks on a bad knee, it's b/c he sucks, w/ no mention of an injury. Or maybe it's Thigpen's fault for holding the ball ( a valid point) but once fans latch onto a guy as a star or a scapegoat, it takes an act of God to get them out of that line of thinking. Henne had an 85+ QBR before he and Hartline/Marshall were injured but he doesn't get any benefit of the doubt, because, well, he's Henne. To your point, yes, techinically it was Revis' zone that was exploited for the TD. Rhodes is responsible for the dig and for the slot WR should he go vertical. The slot WR ran a post on the play, which would've been Leonhard's zone in Quarters, but all three were within a stride of Ginn when he caught the ball. Bottom line, if not for Ginn's speed the play would probably not have worked b/c Revis (and Rhodes) would've had the make up speed to make a play on Hartline, Bess, Camarillo or anyone besides Ginn. Credit Henning for the play call, credit the run game for making the play fake effective, credit Henne for a good (not great) throw, and credit the pass pro for giving Henne a clean pocket, but the play doesn't work w/o Ginn's speed and ability to separate deep down the field. It would've been another case where the fans mistakenly blame Henne for not being able to hit an open WR on a deep route. Ginn's speed made it happen and that is what we were missing on offense last year. On your last question, you're right. Quarters is designed to take away ALL deep throws. Ginn is just that damn fast and if you miss the jam your only only hope is that the safety bails you out (didnt happen), the pressure bails you out (didnt happen), or the QB throws a bad ball and/or is too afraid to challenge Revis when he has an open Ronnie for a good gain (didn't happen either). I'll never be a cheerleader for Ted Ginn Jr. but we were sorely missing his skill set last year, and IMO replacing it should be a priority.
It's really difficult to tell the exact defense they were in because of the way the offense was set up. Two Wr's left and two TE's stacked on the line to the right. Watch how Revis played him inside, then watch how Camarillo was let go of right away as he went inside. That usually spells a two or three deep zone. What it really boiled down to on the play was how Henning drew it up. By Camarillo getting behind the Lb'er who picked him up, it MAY have been a TD to either Wr. I'd be interested to see if they ran that look more than once or twice during that game and ran out of it because to me, it looked like they expected run.
Good stuff. Thanks. Coverage aside, the one clearly definitive observation (like you mentioned) is that Ginn made a play that Hartline isn't capable of. I like your point that Ginn's speed allows the throw to be good and designed play to be effective. All Chad had to do was let her rip so Ginn could adjust his speed and run under it while the DBs had no chance to recover. Heck, if that pass were thrown 3 yards further, it's still a TD b/c Ginn could've punched it rather than taking his foot off the gas. If we re-ran that play exactly to the T, but with Hartline instead of Ginn, the same pass that Ginn can slow down for would be lucky to hit Brian's outstretched fingers. If it's under thrown a hair to Hart in the same way it was to Ginn, then it's picked!...... and if it's thrown an extra 3 yards, then it looks like a crappy incompletion instead of a TD. Like we've harped on---- there's little margin for error with Hartline as the "deep man". I'm still disappointed we didn't draft Jacoby Ford. Even JaMarcus Russell would have a difficult time overthrowing him. How about the statement from Vick: Good luck with that statement coming from anyone QBing our group of receivers. lol. It's freakin difficult to overthrow Jackson and Maclin even with Vick's strong arm, and if you under thrown them it's because their speed has outpaced your arm, not because you took something off it while attempting to be pinpoint accurate to a slower 4.5 guy. I'm fairly certain that, if any of the league's speedy vertical threats were the target (instead of Hartline) during the Joe Haden INT, Chad would've aired it out rather than trying to place it. There would be a previously established confidence that the receiver, thanks to his speed, has the ability to finish the play by running under it; hence you'd have zero reason for taking anything off the pass. As an ex QB, isn't the mentality behind throwing the deep ball that you just want to air it out so that either your guy is getting it or no one is? However, you need speed or playmaking ability on the other end for that mentality, do you not?
Chad Henne had problems reading safeties, and had problems with zone coverage in general in the shortened field. Provided there was no difference between the players other than speed? The faster one. Doesn't have anything actually meaningful to do with speed, though.
It's not likely Quarters vs. the formation, nor is it likely Revis has a deep zone coverage when he sticks close to the line and tries to jam instead of lining up at a more intermediate position or bails before the snap. Revis running when Ginn shouldn't tell you it wasn't cover-2, because you shouldn't assume it's zone coverage. The linebacker not covering the slot receiver shouldn't tell you it's zone because he'd be responsible for the slot receiver in a zone, instead he just gives an effort to jam him, and waits for the runningback. Well no, that's not really true there are prevent coverages where the underneath is completely free for the picking. But that's not what I'm talking about.
You seem a little confused, watch the play again. We have two WRs to the weak side, yet the Jets #2 CB stays on the strong side & the OLB (Bryan Thomas) widens out to cover Camarillo. Except Thomas only jams him, let's him go & is immediately eyeing the RB, who is the only threat left on his side of the field. Clearly this is not a man defense. Unless of course the CB "forgot" to switch to the other side of the formation or Thomas "forgot" to cover Camarillo. Or maybe Rhodes was assigned to cover Camarillo and decided on his own to run with Ginn. If Revis knows that Rhodes has the slot, I doubt he'd be in jam/press/trail mode vs Ted Ginn, especially on 1st and 10 near midfield. I question how you'd think that the Jets, or any non Pop Warner team, could be that dumb. If the call was Cover 2, why would Revis immediately turn his back to the LOS and run with Ginn w/o ever checking his primary assignment (the flats), and if Rhodes has deep responsibility, why is peeking in the backfield or reacting to Camarillo, while the fastest man on the field is rapidly eating his cushion? And why does the SOLB run to the flats w/ Ronnie? That's not his responsibility, it's Revis'. So no, it wasn't Cover 2, either. Besides, if you've watched the Jets play AT ALL since Rex became the coach, you'd know they don't bother w/ Cover 2. And why would they? They have the league's premier shut down corner, using Revis to play the flats would be crazy. And playing Cover 2 w their total lack of a consitent 4 man rush would be criminal negligence. Rex is a lot of things, patient and conservative (Cover 2) isnt one of them. The Jets play man, quarters, 3's on occasion, w/ a steady diet of blitzes from any and everywhere. They don't play Cover 2. They can't afford to. For someone who likes to talk about how other people don't understand coverages, I must say I'm a little disappointed that I have to explain all of this to you . I'm sorry, I didn't realize that Hail Mary's and Prevent defenses were in the discussion. I stand corrected, sir.
A player does not inherently follow a specific defender around the field in man coverage. In some situations a motion player or what have you will have a guy in man coverage follow him, but it's not always the case. Just because the corner did not match with the wide receiver on an unbalanced formation does not make it zone coverage. Especially considering it's Rex Ryan's defense, which frequently involves the players who is directly lined up over or closest to a player not covering him, and another has responsibility in man coverage. I don't see how you can think Thomas has zone coverage when he doesn't actually attempt to cover or carry the receiver he is over anywhere. He's clearly responsible for Brown. Are you playing stupid in solidarity with ToddsPhins? Cover-2 does not mean zone coverage underneath. Cover-2 means two safeties in deep zones, with whatever you can come up with underneath. Rhodes and Leonhard having deep halves does not mean the underneath coverage was zone. Everyone plays cover-2. It is a bread and butter coverage in the NFL. It's like claiming someone doesn't line up in two-TE sets.
If you miss the jam being the imperative part. Theres a reason Ted Ginn is an awful receiver, and its because CBs almost never seem to miss the jam on him. Regardless if the coverage was quarters, cover 3, cover-2 or 1/4-1/4-1/2, its clearly a case of hubris on Revis' part if what you claim is true. The guy is supposedly responsible for a deep zone, yet apparently isn't playing the right technique. But really this proves nothing, because if we tried this play ten times, Ginn would be jammed 9 of them. You can consider a once a season occurance to be to be an "ability to separate deep", but I'll just call it "inefficient".
LOL we're back to bashing Tedd Ginn now? I'm talking about how we're missing the ability (SPEED) to make the kind of play that Ginn made on that particular play. No one is saying we need Tedd Ginn specifically or talking up his prowess as a WR. Ginn beat Revis at the LOS and Revis never recovered. Ginn was still running away from him 40+ yds down field as the ball arrived. Despite Ginn detouring for his dig fake, Revis never got back into proper position b/c of SPEED. Had that been one our current WRs, Revis would've been back into the play within 15-20 yds, certainly in time to defend the pass. Henne could never air out a deep ball the way he does on that play b/c our current WRs lack the speed to run under those kinds of passes. We saw it on the first play of the Jets game this year. Play action again, deep ball to Hartline, the ball lands a half yd past his diving hands. Throw that same pass to Ginn and and he probably has to slow down for it. And it's probably a TD. I'm guessing that game plays out a tad bit differently if instead of down 14-0 early, we're up 7-0 on the opening snap.
Dude, it's Cover 2, not the guide to manufacturing highly enriched uranium. You act like you're privvy to some Top Secret guidelines on how to play coverage. Nothing you care to explain, just a snazzy one liner implying the superiority of your knowledge. It's kinda funny, actually.
I never implied anything other than your lack of understanding of what cover-2 entails. Revis' technique is really irrelevant, because cover-2 isn't necessarily referring to his responsibilities. The instance where Revis' technique would be relevant would be cover-4 or some other variation.
Its not just Cover 4, its a combo coverage. Its Cover 4 with Cover 2 check to the nub side on that touchdown to Ginn. Rex does use Cover 2. Rex also uses a ton of 0 and 1/4-1/4-1/2. Its not all about playing one coverage; its being multiple.
I fixed that for you ^^^^ Brian Hartline is making it to the right spot a lot faster than Ted Ginn 90% of the time, because Brian Hartline has the ability to beat press coverage, diagnose coverages, and run better routes. All of which make up for the the difference in 40 yard dash speed. You keep ignoring the fact that straight line speed really only helps when you're running one particular route, without being redirected.
Heres another great play from the same game, that we ran against cover-2: Wow look how Hartline beats Wilson and his 4.4 speed! Look how Fasano attacks the safety!!! I wonder what happened when the QB threw the ball
Man, you say a whole lot of nothing at all LOL. Take a cue from Alen and actually explain what you're referring to b/c simply implying what someone else does not understand doesn't move the discussion forward, at all. IMO, there is no defense where any player's technique is not important, so I admit, I have a 'lack of understanding" of what you're talking about there.
Cover-2 refers to two deep safeties. Thats it. It doesn't imply anything about Revis', or anyone else's, responsibility(ies). It means that there are two guys whose responsibility is the deep half of the field. That doesn't mean Revis is playing zone or man, or that Thomas is playing zone or man. There are dozens of different variables and possibilities of what they could be doing. The defense could have been called in as quarters. The safety is making checks, one of which could have called for him to cover the deep half, which makes the coverage a soft cover-2, and changes the OLBs assignment. The fact that the 2 WRs were both on the same side of the field would most likely indicate what change the safety is making.
All three underneath defenders have their backs turned to the QB. Since technique is important to me, I'm thinking that it's cover 2 man and that b/c we used max pro (what a surprise) the Jets LBs were able to blitz. But I'm just guessing. What happened on the play, the throw etc? Doesnt look like anyone is open to me. Sure would be nice if we had a RB that could beat opposing LBs in space or an OC that actually used his backs in the passing game consistently b/c counting on your WRs to win 3 vs 5 or 4 vs 7 consistently is asking for trouble.
Semantics? C'mon dude. When I say Cover 2, I mean Cover 2 zone. If I say Cover 2 man or 2 man, I mean cover 2 man. I've been talking about how we couldnt beat Cover 2 zone for so long that I don't bother to make the distinction anymore but I'll make that more clear from now on. On the Ginn TD, I don't think the Jets were in either Cover 2 or 2 man. Thomas and the strong side corner tell me its not man, Revis & Rhodes tell me its not Cover 2 zone, Leonhard tells me its not Cover 3. Quarters or 4-4-2 is my best guess.
Good catch. 4-4-2 would make perfect since in that spot. I havent found a camera angle where I can see whats happening on the strong side, but clearly Revis & Rhodes appear to be in quarters.
Yes it was 2 man under. The safety on the near side committed to Marshall. Fasano has a step on the LB, the safety on the far side sees this and bites. But Hartline also has two steps on Wilson. At this point Chad Henne has two receivers and one safety that has to make a decision. Isn't this what you and Todd have been asking for? For us to get vertical and force the safety into committing? The bad news is, Henne throws a poor ball that forces Hartline to hang out around the 5 yard line and wait for it to float out of bounds. The good news is, Wilson was beat enough that he was forced into a pass interference.
The strong side CB isn't playing zone. He's the force player because of the 2 check on the nub side. But all of this is still aside from the point that Revis wasn't doing what he was supposed to.
Thx. I remember the play well but I'm not sure I agree w/ your assessment. IIRC Henne threw a couple "bad balls" to Bess, fade routes, back shoulder type throws, earlier in the game. Both were against Kyle Wilson, both were complete. In fact, the first play bomb to Hartline was vs Wilson, and perhaps that made him more susceptible to the fade-stop routes. I don't have the game in front of me, but I'm willing to bet that Henne was going after Wilson again, on the same route that he and Bess had success with earlier. This time, instead of a completion we got a P.I., which is just as good. You call that Henne screwing up, but that's a tough case to make considering what had happened in the game up to that point. IMO Henne was attacking a weakness that he saw in the defense, perhaps the throw wasnt perfect, but he had the right idea, and his WR made a play for him.
Yes, he's the force player. But since it's a pass play, he has a coverage responsibility. Neither TE went into a route, an nothing was crossing into his zone, so he went looking for work elsewhere, which is what CBs are taught to do.
If every player were doing exactly what he were supposed to, then every game would end in a 0-0 tie......... or 100-100, not sure which. How about Rhodes admitting that he had blame in the Ginn TD? Bottom line is speed torched at least 1 defender on the play, a pretty good one at that. I could care less if Ginn sucks. It's not about Ginn; it's about the speed. Regarding our discussion, I hope you're not trying to say that, since Ginn can't beat the press, every receiver with speed cant do it either.
No. I hope you're not trying to say that, because a player runs a 4.3, he can get more separation than someone who runs a 4.5 and is better at running routes and reading coverages.
Yes, only we'd like to accomplish this more often....... with a TE who can separate better from LBs...... and with a WR whom the QB doesn't have to worry about precise placement with downfield. I honestly didn't think that was too much to ask for or why we feel the need to make things as difficult as possible for a QB to succeed here. Hartline is not matched vertically for a strong armed QB. He's perfect for a Penny type passer b/c it's hard for Penny to overthrow him. It's like playing golf and trying to use your driver to drop it on the green from 220 yards out when you're a 300 hitter. For Penny, 220 might be a normal swing. For Henne, 220 means there's more involved; he's gotta make sure he doesn't overdrive the green, nor leave it short. Penny can take a normal cut and know that it's traveling 220. Henne can't. Therefore, you don't want to be using your driver for precision. If you can hit your driver 300, then you pair it to the situation that allows you to hit it 300. IE: get a speed receiver that allows you to take a normal swing so that there's less margin for error. Any ex QBs here disagree with this?
OK. Lets recap. I post a play where Brian Hartline gets open vertically. Chad Henne proceeds to throw a poor ball. Your response is "Brian Hartline was only 2 steps ahead of the CB which isn't good enough". Even though the actual ball thrown forced Hartline to stop running. Got it. But your analogy does a good job of illustrating how Chad Henne's accuracy and timing are not conducive to accurate passes down the field.
I just didn't understand why you're mentioning Ginn having problems beating the press in a thread that deals with stretching the field? If it's unrelated to other fast receivers, then it really doesn't need to be mentioned. I am saying that if 2 players initially beat their man, that the 4.3 one will continue to gain more separation further downfield if the DB isn't faster, or he will at least make it more difficult for the DB to close. I'm saying that a 4.3 guy allows you to put more under the ball than a 4.5 guy, and that a 4.3 guy allows greater margin for error with everything else being equal. Brian Hartline running a 4.3 is better than Hartline running a 4.5. It's that simple. On a side note: Brian's not the only good route runner & coverage reader in the world. Fast guys can accomplish this feat, too, you know. lol. Would you agree that, at times, speed can nullify or replace the need for a precise route that requires double moves and head fakes etc.
Correct, and if you can find a 4.3 Brian Hartline that requires the same outlay of resources, I'd be glad to replace Hartline with him.
Not even close. If I'm using a 7 iron to try and reach the green from 100 yards out rather than 160, then my ability for placement and accuracy will be entirely different than using a wedge. If I have more club than the distance I'm trying to reach, it becomes MUCH easier to come up short or long b/c I have to completely adjust my swing speed rather than letting it go normal. This is entirely different than the accuracy involved with using a wedge from 30-80 yards out whre it's much easier to take something off of it and still maintain accuracy b/c the distance is shorter. The short passing game is like using a wedge. It's meant for accuracy. The intermediate passing game is like your 7 iron where you have the flexibility to work it a little because the distance isn't too bad. However, the deep passing game is like your woods and driver. There's little flexibility. There's less emphasis on precise accuracy (dropping it on the green) because you're only concerned with keeping it on the fairway while maximizing your distance. Hartline as a "vertical guy" is like constantly trying to use your woods to drop it on the green. The biggest reason Henne has accuracy issues downfield is because Hartline forces him to be more pinpoint accurate on a throw that should NOT be about pinpoint accuracy. "Accurate" passes in the strict sense are for short-intermediate stuff, timing routes etc. Completing a 50 yard pass is less about accuracy than it is about a WR letting his QB air it out after beating his man so that he can run under it while the DB is trailing behind. When Mike Wallace beats his man for a 60 yard TD that he catches in stride (but slows down a hair for), then the pass wasn't actually all that accurate. The receiver's speed and ability to play the ball are what make it accurate...... and in the process it makes Ben look like he threw a beautiful pass.
And you would agree that there's a little give and take correct?-----> That we can find a vertical guy who might not be "quite" as good at route running & reading coverage as Hartline but make up for it with better speed/deep capability. What are your thoughts on stretching the field with Hartline in the slot with a speedier guy on the outside?
For players not named Manning, Brady, or Brees, there's too much margin for error when trying to be "accurate" 45 yards downfield rather than airing it out to a spot 60 yards downfield and letting your receiver do the work. The potential for an underthrow enters the picture, as does an overthrow b/c the receiver doesn't have the speed to run under it. The DB recovering becomes a concern, especially if your receiver lacks a decent ability to play the ball.
