Other than to prase Beck Shanny has been ultra mum as to his plans for the QB position. I do think he sees Gross as an option to keep around but the INTS worry him. Grossman is ok for winning some games as it seems as long as you keep him reined in and guessing about the starters job he's ok but the minute he's settled in he becomes erratic, as his past proves. Shanny wants Accuracy and I believe he thinks Beck will give him that. jm2c I do think he will get a UDFA QB, maybe Devlin, but at the same time Shanny is known for keeping only 2 QB's on the roster. P.S. Thats why it also points to Him wanting Johnny to be his guy as he was kept as the third guy and the only resignee; not a normal thing for Shanny. McNabb was told he wouldn't be back.
I see you often make this Henne/Kelly comparison, but I just do not see it. Kelly was much more mobile than Henne ever was or ever will be. I don't see a K Gun type offense as playing to Henne's strengths, like it did for Kelly. I like Henne and think he can develop into a solid viable starting QB, but to compare his at this point to a HOFer is a real stretch.
IMO the definition of a franchise QB is one who has strong enough qualities and skills to build a team around. Stats do not tell the whole story when defining this. Its not just about his performance on the field. Does he inspire the people around him to play at a higher level as well IMO is an important element to deciding if he is the kind of guy you want to build your team around. How he reacts under pressure is another important aspect. Can he read defenses and expose thier flaws and exploit them to his advantage when it counts the most. IMO there are more QBs that I would consider franchise QBs then Padre listed. I would put Henne in the maybe catagory at this point.
I agree, I think there are a lot more franchise Qbs than Padre listed. I think franchise Qb is one level then elite/HOF caliber (Manning, Brady, Elway, Marino, etc) is another. Franchise Qb to me is when a team commits to a player and builds around him, I'd put guys like Ryan, Rodgers, Rivers, Rothlesberger, Eli Manning etc in that category as well. They are going to start for their teams for the next decade baring injury and give their team a shot at the Superbowl. There are a lot of Qbs with Superbowl wins, tons of wins and HOF busts that weren't throwing 40tds a year.
Ah, you and me saw the Kelly before the KGun Mr C, they added Thomas in 1988, and voila! the Bills offense leaped upwards. I make that comparison because what Kelly did well, get the ball out of his hand quickly and play through injuries, is what Henne does do well, Kelly also threw untimely Int's and was not very athletic. Another interesting factoid is Kelly never had over 500 passing attempts in a season which to me would be right about the level Henne should be at for us, less then 30 pass attempts per game on average. Kelly avg'd 23 Td'per yr, and 17.5 int's, I think that is Henne's ceiling as well.
To me, a "franchise qb" is one good enough that a GM can somewhat ignore the offense and build other areas on the team as the Qb is so good the offense is always going to win games without question, there are very few Qb's like that in the league, Manning, Brees, Brady, all of their teams are not wonderfully adept at the draft as the pick late in the draft yr after yr, but they win 10 games or more and make playoff appearances yr after yr. There are very very few of that type of Qb in the NFL, which is why I say going on a snipe hunt for one is not as likely to produce a contender for us as is rebuilding the running game.
Kelly was good for the 2 seasons before Thomas though. I also think he is much more mobile than Henne, though obviously not a Steve Young et al. I'll just agree to disagree when it comes to the Henne and Kelly comparison.
In terms of TD to In ratio he was, the other stuff is more or less the same. Kelly stopped running in 1989 or so, prior to that he was fairly mobile, afterwards less than 100 yds per yr. Henne and Kelly more or less were sacked the same amount as well, about 32 times per yr on avg. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00.htm Right on Bro.
Ponder is this the Ponder just drafted to the Vikings? That would have ZERO nfl experience. Flop on these stats.
I think you have it backward. When a coach is fortunate enough to hit pay-dirt and land a QB of that caliber they typically try to add as much talent as they can on offense to give their pedigree player as many weapons as they can. The more talent he has around him the more he excels and the more ways he finds to move the chains and put points on the board. It is normally the defense that becomes more of an afterthought then a primary focus during draft and FA periods. Coaches and GMs surround star QBs with the best talent they can find because they know players like Brady, Manning, and Brees will get the most out of them. Here are some QB's other then the 3 you mentioned that IMO display what you look for in a franchise QB and are worth building your team around: Phillip Rivers Mike Vick Big Ben Cassel Cutler Eli Manning Matt Ryan Palmer Schuab Rodgers Romo Add that to the 3 you listed and thats almost half the leauge where you have players established enough to consider them franchise level players. Then I could put together another group of QB's that look like they have the potential to play on that level once they have a little more experience. Right now they are just too young to say if they are going to mature into a franchise player or not. Kolb Josh Freeman Flacco Sanchez Clausen Bradford Henne (he either belongs at the bottom of this group or at the top of the next group) Next group I would consider as long shots but all hope not lost yet. Fitzpatrick Smith My point is that franchise QBs could be called uncommon they are not exactly as rare of a find as say a unicorn. A QB does not have to be able to single handedly be capable of carrying a team to the SB and then winning it to be considered a franchize QB.
Well now you're changing the metrics of what you defined as a franchise QB. You said something along these lines, " a franchise QB is one a team builds around and one where there offense will always keep them in games". I don't see any mention of playoff record in there. The Falcons just made a huge investment in Julio Jones. You don't think they view Ryan as a franchise guy? I think people often confuse a team's definition of franchise with the terminology of good, great, and elite. Those are adjectives for their play. Teams very often term a "good" QB as a franchise QB--some examples are Matt Haaselbeck in Seattle for a long time, Eli Manning, and Steve McNair in Tennessee. Heck, look at the investment in Jake Delhomme in Carolina. I'd say he was an average QB, but he was certainly viewed as a franchise QB.
I disagree. Franchise refers to a QB who can be the face of your franchise and win enough games for you even when everything isn't going perfectly. Just off the top of my head I can think of a fairly long list of QBs that fit that category already or arguably have the skill set to be in that category. In no particular order: Brady Manning Rodgers Rivers Vick Roethlisberger Brees Freeman Bradford Ryan Schaub Romo Now personally, I may not call all of these guys 'franchise QBs', but many GMs do. These QBs are at least good enough that their teams don't have to go into each draft hoping find a QB. That should be our hope, to have a few years where QB isn't the over-riding concern.
What? That is one very arbitrary list Rafi 3 Qb's have not led their team to the playoffs, a couple more have none or 1 playoff win, those are some shady "franchise' Qb's. Somewhere along the way 'franchise' changed from "elway/marino/favre" to "decent Qb who is young".
Not "keep you in games" "win games for you ". Nope,do not consider Ryan a "franchise Qb" 0-2 in the playoffs and being nothing without Michael Turner going for 300 plus carries is not a "franchise" Qb, ditto Eli Manning, 27 td's to 25 int's? A franchise Qb wins games no matter who is on the field with them, like Brady tossing to no names to win super bowls, Manning tossing passes to street FA's and winning the division, those are franchise Qb's. I think once again the term "franchise' has been badly watered down to mean "good Qb who needs other things to win ballgames".
Franchise QB is a subjective term, it includes every QB that you believe is worth building a team around. A player like Freeman can be considered a franchise QB if you believe in him. Henne is still considered to be a potential franchise QB by some. You do not have to be a HOF QB to be considered franchisable.
Which is cool with me, as long as the term is now subjective I'm cool with it being used, it is just so and so is a "franchise qb' and so and so "will never be one" with no rhyme or reason to it. With that in mind, I do not think Henne is a "franchise qb" I think he is a good Qb potentially who will go as far as the rest of the team, D, ST, running game, will take him. Jim Kelly's numbers pale in comparison to say Warren Moon's, but those 3 SB's make all of the difference, to me that is the difference between a "franchise Qb" and a "really good Qb".
Henne is hardly a wasted pick. A bad pick? He may prove to be so, but hardly wasted. Yes, Beck ended up being a wasted pick (much like White) and that definitely sucks.
Samson Satele as well, for me that is more a cautionary tale about over valuing draft choices then anything else. I'm wondering if they sign Marion Barber if/when he is cut.
As far as I can tell Samson played very well in Cameron's system.He just didn't fit the new FO's. So I think its hard to call it a wasted pick, as if it's the player's fault. It's wasted more or less because the FO couldn't utilize him. His time might be up in Oakland now however, due to the move to Hue Jackson's system.
Should point out that we traded one undersized but highly mobile center for a couple of used hot dog wrappers, after he played an entire season with a Torn Labrum, then drafted another highly mobile center with the #15 overall. To quote Vince Lombardi: "What the hell is going on out there!!!!!"
I recall Satele played with two injured shoulders in 2008, and we still ran the ball pretty well with him as center. The dude sacrifices like that and we trade him away. I said at the time, even signing Grove, Satele was worth keeping for depth or let him compete at guard. Which player did the pick for Satele turn into? Clemons? Nalbone? I recall we flip flopped 4th rounders, so Hartline was one guy we got with a pick from the Raiders too.
Wound up being Hartline and Andrew Gardner, Raiders got Slade Norris (whom they cut prior to Camp) and Satele.
Ok, so got their 6th and flip flopped 4th? I was thinking we got their 5th, since we had 2 in the 5th that year.
A wasted pick to me is something you get basically nothing out of. 26 starts and 6,000 yds (and counting) is hardly nothing. Ted Ginn wasn't a wasted pick IMO either, he played plenty, and while he wasn't as productive as I would like he was still somewhat productive. I also don't agree with the "develop something that was never there" statement. Plenty of QBs fail to pan out (even ones drafted considerably higher than Henne), that doesn't mean the ability to be a "franchise QB" was never there.
Not on the offensive side of the ball. I think that just about everything they have done goes counter to the way that NFL has designed teams to take advantage of offensive rules. Its a pass happy league designed to take advantage of that with speed on the outsides. We act as though its the exact opposite. Run the ball - boring 3 yards & a cloud of dust. Ireland hasn't had the balls to admit that Sparano doesn't live in the NFL thinking of today. He should have fired him, and brought in someone that is more forward thinking. His failure to do that I believe will cost him his job by or before the end of next season.
Exactly.......my this was my thinking too. Unless Henne makes incredible strides this year, he is not the player we need to build a championship team. Unless you are building towards a championship, and that includes someone you believe is a championship caliber QB then he has been a waste of time. That means Ireland did not do his best to provide us with a championship team, and has failed in his job.
Jets made back to back AFC Championship Game appearances with Top 5 rushing games and mediocre passing games.
His road to winning a SB was more of an exception than rule in the history of the last 20 or so SB's. In the last 10 years after Dilfer's win can you please tell me how many non-elite QB's have won the SB ? The only one I think could be the Tampa QB in 2002. Since then its been a QB that is a household name every time.
Did you not just make my point ? For me, making an AFC Championship is not what I am after. That is thinking for losers Padre.
If you say so, Dolphins have not reached even that level since 1992, that would be known as "progress" especially with such a young team, the Jest on the other hand are quite a veteran lot with 9 starters, over 33% of them, up for FA this offseason.
If you choose a QB that you never build a team in which he can win a championship with with his set of QB skills, then he was a waste of time to pick & try to develop. It seems that the thinking around here has become just getting into the playoffs....HELL NO ! I want to win Super Bowls and no I am not satisfied unless that is what we are striving for. Any other thinking is for losers. That is why the Marino years are so frustrating to live with. We had the man, and I think Shula's legacy will forever be tarnished because of his failure to get Marino the tools in which he needed to win a SB. There would be no question about who the greatest coach in NFL history is had Marino won at least 1 or 2 SB's. Many people would say Walsh is numero uno, and that while very impressive with 347 wins, Shula is not the best coach of all time. Remember Shula had a horrible reputation in big games up until winning with the undefeated team in 1972.
And how many wins in the 2000's have been with elite QB's ? Odds are better with an elite QB to win the SB, so why are you trying to do this the hard way with Henne, instead of doing whatever it takes to get that elite QB and build that championship team around him ? Again I subscribe to the theory you build around an elite QB to win SB's. The missed opportunity of Matt Ryan will haunt this franchise until Ireland & Sparano are gone. And it will also be the eventual downfall of every regime that follows them, until its recognized that you start building around a QB not an OLine.
If that is your thinking Padre, then you have given up and are satisfied with mediocrity. I expect no less than trying to win a SB. NOTHING LESS. That is the only reason to play the game, and be a fan of your team, anyhting less is just becoming a Cubs fan.
In the last 2 years the Jets ended the seasons of 1) Palmer 2) Rivers 3)Manning 4) Brady w/ Mark Sanchez as their QB. Tom Brady is 0-3 in his last 3 playoff games w/ losses to Eli, Flacco & Sanchez. Elite QBs are nice to have, but they don't grown on trees, and ground and pound teams like the Jets, Ravens etc can beat ANYONE, elite QBs included, when they are playing well. 2nd, you cant just "go get one" because you want to, if that were the case, everybody would have one. It's easy for fans to say"go get a franchise QB" in lieu of building a solid defense and running game, but those same fans will be calling for the GMs head when Mr Franchise turns out to not be what he was billed as. Maybe if you had to wear Ireland's shoes for a few days you'd understand why he, and many other GMs, are dong what they're doing.
