MortReport (Chris Mortenson) on Miami's interest (or lack of) in Vince Young

So Miami has a lack of interest for Vince Young? Thank GOD!!

 

Padre--I was saying I have had a neutral viewpoint, not the author. My bad on the mixup. Clearly the author supports Vince although it sounds like he should be fairly neutral also, if not against Vince (Titan fan living in DC). And I agree with you on the "tantrum" thing, although it realistically goes way back in Vince's career, not just that one game, as the article discusses. Again, the article leaves out the Dolphin game that was right before the Skins one, which definitely was a direct contributor to the frustration and ensuing incident.

ck--
1. Fisher and his crew convinced management to get rid of Vince before he left. Given the already apparent distrust between Vince and management there, how would it work out to bring him back AFTER saying that you were dumping him? If you dumped your gf for another girl, only to reverse your decision after the other girl leaves, how would that turn out?

2. Again, I'm not sure how you characterize "significant" playing time, but the numbers I gave were complete and accurate for games started. For example, would you give Vince a loss for the Pats game 2 years ago, when he was put in in the 4th quarter, down 50-something to 0?? Surely that would not be fair. In games where they played AT ALL since Vince came in, I got Vince's record at 30-23, Collins at 18-20. As I broke down above, the starting records are more lopsided. In fact, in games started, Vince is by far the winningest QB (by %) in Titan/Oilers HISTORY.
As for the 47%--isn't that Fisher again? We've already established that he hated Vince and wanted him out. Also, Fisher is a notoriously conservative play-caller, based on a run-first O and strong D. And wouldn't it make sense that the best RB in the league gets the most carries? Plus, Titan fans were incredibly frustrated with Fisher's play-calling these last few years, and that is partially why he is now gone. Quite frankly, the Titans moved the ball more effectively through the air this year than on the ground, and that is what got Titan fans so angry with Fisher.

3. How is Jeff Fisher one of the most decorated coaches? He has won 0 Super Bowls in 17 years. He has been to 1. He has 5 Playoff wins. 6 winning seasons. In 17 years. A winning season every 3 years..awesome. That's a good coach? Most coaches would have been fired 4 times in that span. Bud Adams is certifiably insane, and the fact that he kept Fisher around for 17 years is by no means evidence of Fisher's good coaching ability. The AFC South blogger on ESPN had an article a while back with stats on how Fisher is arguably the worst coach EVER with a tenure close to the length of his. His winning record is barely above .500 if I remember correctly. And again, this argument goes right back to Fisher, who undeniably was against Young.

4. Ok, 83 is not an "elite" qb rating, but it is solid and was above guys like Matt Ryan and Henne. Last year, his QB rating was 98--which is very stellar and top 5. Again, the offense was #1 in scoring with Vince, terrible without him. He was essential to their success, both by the numbers and the eye-test. Also, note the upward arc in his performance, currently at elite levels. Who knows where the peak could be? This thread is about whether he would be a good pickup for this franchise--Would you rather have a guy on the upswing at a 98 rating, or a Palmer/Hasselback with lower ratings and with their skills dropping off?

 

Fisher never had much talent to work with IMO. He's a good coach IMO.

 

Just to add to Padre's points on that Redskins game, the game was VERY close (I think tied, or maybe Titans barely up) when Vince hurt his thumb (btw, he hurt it following through on a completed deep ball). And the Titans were right on the playoff bubble at the time. The Titans ended up having several great chances to score with good field position, but the backup qb couldn't do it (not to blame him--he was a 6th round rookie in his first game ever). Game went to OT, again the Titans couldn't score (I think they had the ball in OT once or twice) and they ended up losing on a FG. All this while Vince is on the sideline trying to get in the game.

And ya, I'm not quite sure I buy into the author's reasoning for the strip club incident, (although it is very possible), but I don't really see that as such a big deal, especially compared to other stuff players do. And I think the rest of the article is a very good representation of what happened in TN.

 

[video=youtube;ngEueaBe2uk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngEueaBe2uk[/video]

 

Floyd Reese and Jim Washburn?

Fisher perhaps was overrated as a coach, or underrated depending on your view, but if one looks he was not as successful as one would think and he had talent on that team in McNair and George Etc.

 

Washburn is an outstanding coach. However, the talent they had to work with was not great, no. I won't be convinced otherwise.

 

http://barkingcarnival.fantake.com/...e-young-for-those-of-you-not-scoring-at-home/

And that was the final act for both of them, imho Bud Adams maybe nutty, but he had the balls to clean the decks in TN, he needed to, when two key people are constantly fighting sometimes the best thing to do is dump both of them and clean the slate enter Jake Locker.

That is what happened, VY got fed up with some dude at a strip club and things got out of hand, for the usual "accountants with footballs" that surround the NFL that was some terrible act, I can speak from past experience that crap like that happens all of the time in bars, clubs, wherever there is booze and women.

Normally either both guys are bounced from the place, or they just agree to stay the hell away from each other...NBD, but because it was Vince Young the whole thing is blown up.

What is a legit concern with Young is Fisher laid the allegation that he never showed up for one weeks' worth of knee rehab, and he intimated that was not the first time for Young.

http://www.aolnews.com/2009/12/10/vince-young-leaves-practice-with-knee-injury/


The other problem with Young is in 3 yrs he has missed 19 games, he has had knee issues 2 of the last 3 yrs, I'm not so much worried about how "Vince Young the Qb" will play, that has a track record:

57% completions/1 to 1 TD to Int ratio/6.3 YPA/300 yds rushing and a couple of TD's

He is not a prolific passer by any stretch of the imagination, but then again numbers do not mean as much as wins, but I wonder how much those leg injuries have hurt his largest asset his athleticism, he mentioned in a news story that he had shoulder surgery as well by Dr Andrews which means it was fairly serious.

 

Haven't been here that long so I don't know much about what kind of talent Fisher has had, but off the top of my head, Moon, McNair, Eddie George, Bruce Matthews (HOF lineman), Derrick Mason (not great I know), Dyson, and the TE Wychek were good, and he's had some solid Defensive talent too--Samari Rolle, Keith Bulluck, The Freak, etc.
And IMO, in a 17 year tenure a head coach holds a lot of responsibility in acquiring and developing talent. The titans have had plenty of draft picks to aquire talent, and the HC always has a say in those. Plus, coaches coach--their job is to bring out the talent in their players and make them into stars. So maybe his lack of stars is really just another indictment of his coaching..

and to Kingmotion--I wasn't trying to refute his post at all by saying that (the parentheses were supposed to clarify that, but I guess I didn't make it very clear).
I was just pointing out how players like Ray Lewis (or Roethlisberger etc) can (allegedly) do something far worse than anything Vince has done, yet these guys are considered leaders and model players. In fact--remember in ATL, Vick (Im not saying hes a model citizen yet) flicked off his own fans and had several football-related "mental problems"? Yet now that he's in a new situation, all you hear is praise.

I guess I just don't think Vince has done anything that bad, and if those other guys can get through their issues, I don't see why Vince can't (given that he is in another situation this time). Heck, even Palmer has had his fair share of drama in Cincy, in addition to what's going on right now. I just think that the whole Vince mental thing is being way overblown, but i guess thats just me..

 

Exactly, the same things that were said of Vick are being said of Young.

Well some do, some don't, like him, I suspect there is a whole lot of rumors/minor stuff being blown way out of proportion when it comes to Vince Young the person, never mind that he has taken care of Steve McNair's children since he was murdered, which strikes me as just the nature of people to highlight the bad to the harm of the good.

As for Young the football player, I LIKE his game, to me if he is released it would make perfect sense to sign him, but to a "show me" deal, if Brian Daboll had Colt McCoy playing well enough for the Browns to skip every Qb not named Cam Newton, and to be their "future" then why would Young somehow not flourish with the same coaching?



Too much emotion methinks.

 

Yep, another good article about what happened Padre, good find. Unfortunately, ESPN won't give you that side of the story (except Skip Bayless strangely enough), so most people don't buy it.

And yeah, I think most people (Titan fans) would agree that Bud Adams needed to start over and get rid of BOTH VY and Fisher. There was a lot of bitterness on both sides (lots of players siding with Vince, lots of management with Fisher etc), and there was no way that organization would have good chemistry.

That's the first I've ever heard about Vince missing a full week of knee rehab. Where did you see that? (didn't see it in your links) I will say this: the local media has had to backtrack on a lot of reports on VY missing practice/rehab etc.--they'll report he missed it, and then later the coaches/Vince will explain that there was no rehab that week (one time he just had to be in a boot for a while) or that Vince was excused from practice to go to Steve McNairs kids "fathers day" etc etc.
And BTW, I'm pretty sure he played in the game following the aol link that you posted.

As far as Vince's passing stats, I think you've gotta consider that his first two years were understandably rough--coming out of college he was considered a "project qb" that would take 2-3 years to adapt to the NFL. People forget this. I would pay MUCH more attention to his recent stats, because his accuracy and decision making have improved enormously. Also, his first years he had one of the worst offensive support casts in the NFL (seriously, look them up). I think it's better to look at where he is now than where he used to be in terms of passing efficiency.

That said, as you alluded to, my ONE MAIN WORRY with Vince is his injury history. Maybe it's his running style, but whatever reason he has had his fair share of injuries. 19 games might be a little deceptive bc he just got benched in 2008 even when he was healthy, but he has had his share of nicks and bruises. The most recent one was pretty flukish--he threw a bomb, and while following through hit his thumb on a helmet. That's actually a fairly common QB injury but just unlucky. And BTW-he did NOT have shoulder surgery (as far as I know)--it was his thumb, on his throwing hand. Still serious for a qb, but different.

 

Shut off BSPN awhile ago.

Agreed, that does not mean either one is not NFL Caliber, it was more like a divorce.

That is what I had in mind.

Have to look at the whole picture, and Young was handing the ball of to Chris Johnson.

I don't know if he will ever by considered a "great" passer finagin, I'd probably bet against it actually, however he can be an acceptable passer which combined with his running means he can flourish in Dabolls' offense.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/11/14/vince-young-passed-on-bye-week-ankle-treatments/

There was some shoulder issue:

http://www.click2houston.com/sports/27845446/detail.html

[video]http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d81fca48e/Vikings-good-fit-for-Young[/video]

What Jamie Dukes says is quite correct, Young means the DE cannot crash down the los, he also adds WC options, if Young lines up at Wr the WC has far more teeth to it.

I've kept an eye on Vince Young for a time now finigain, more then most who simply maybe are letting emotions override good football decisions, same thing happened with Ray Lewis and Mike Vick and even the guy we drafted Jim Wilson.

Let me guess, you are a Vince Young fan?

 

Yep, agreed. Oh well, it's all a moot point until the lockout's over, and then we'll see what happens. At this point, all of these reports are worthless anyways--no team is going to tip their hat here, especially in this case. since they want Vince to be released instead of trading.

And completely unrelated to football--I would encourage people to look up what Vince has done with McNair's kids. Truly a heartwarming story. Vince never had to do any of that stuff, and he's never tried to bring attention to it at all. Lots of good stories in the local news about him and those kids (taking them to the Pro Bowl, going with them to school for Father's day and career day things, etc). It's unfortunate that stories like this take a back page compared to things like the strip club incident, because IMO one is MUCH more important than the other.

 

Haha, yeah I think I've made my view on him clear Padre. I guess I just feel like he got a really raw deal, and the guy does not deserve his national reputation at all. When you look at the big picture, his "problems" just seem fixable and not that big of a deal..these guys are human too. These last few years have convinced me that Vince has the skills to be a great NFL qb, and I truly believed that his problems in TN were the result of the situation, not his personality. Wherever he goes, I think he will thrive as long as he has a (more) supportive coach/team/fanbase. Heck, coming out of Texas, I remember the same media saying that his greatest strength was his leadership/intangible (which he obviously had in college). I feel very strongly that he could not only fill a gap in Miami, but he could easily become a franchise QB. And as you/Jamie Dukes said, his skills open up a lot of things for the rest of the offense, and believe it or not we saw that here with CJ in TN. Plus, the guy is just a thrill to watch--obviously his legs add a new dimension, but stuff like his 99-yd 2-minute drill to beat AZN don't happen every day either.

Maybe you're right about the shoulder, but I think that's just a confusing paragraph. I'm pretty sure the surgery was only on the thumb, and then he is just talking about building up his shoulder strength in general (he probably didn't throw for a while bc of the thumb). Could be wrong though.

 

Well the way I see it he was kind of a screw up when he first got into the NFL, that was when stuff like the pic of him in a club without a shirt on surfaced and the "zomg suicide watch!" then it all stopped, he did get into a pushing match at a strip club that he was cleared of any wrong doing on, but people just hand onto that personal stuff, when it comes to his on the field play one will notice the only criticism is "oh, he is more of a running back!" or "they had to simplify the offense" which seems like blah blah to me as the only thing that matters is wins and losses.

I do agree that for whatever reason Jeff Fisher just did not go for his game, maybe because he was not Fisher's "guy".

But then again, we picked up Brandon Marshall whose off the field stuff was tragic in Denver.

Interesting that Floyd Reese drafted him, Reese is running herd in New England now, it is not unusual for GM's/Front Office types to bring in their guys, the ones they bet heavily on.

Eh, he mentioned it, thought I'd bring it up.

To me, Daboll worked with McCoy in Cleveland and it worked out, why cannot the same thing happen with Young in Miami? I'd like to have him on the team to compete with Henne, two wildly different skillsets to me gives Sparano more options.

 

Interesting slickj, the shirtless photo is from 2008, 3yrs ago almost to the day, the other one is Young receiving a diagnosis or treatment when injured and it turned out he sprained his knee.

Oh wait, look:

 

If it's funny, it's funny.

 

What a stupid idea for a web site. Drunkathlete.com. Here we see a pic of Henne with a can of some beverage in his hand. Maybe you can tell what he is drinking, I can't. Even if it is beer, who cares? Does that mean he is drunk or deserves to be on some moron's ridiculous web site?

 

This is the problem. One day you hear a heartwarming story like this, then two days later he is fighting with his coach, or a person in a bar.

I don't mind someone who may have a problem or two but it seems obvious that Young's elevator may not go to the top floor. Not to mention, he is good on the field one day then he sucks the next. Then he supposedly wanted to end his life because of tension mounting. Sounds like a timebomb to me.

 

Young is not the first Qb to be angry with their HC, and the shoving match was not on him.

Have not seen him in enough games to comment on his inconsistency, the suicide stuff is also from 3 yrs ago, and turned out to be baseless.

That is sort of my reason, one of them, for thinking Young can still be a fine Qb the stuff people bring up now was from 3 yrs ago, and he always had the desire to play, that is the raw material needed, add in Daboll's success with Colt McCoy and to me Young would be a fit for us.

 

Like I said, overly simplistic. Especially the part about Vince Young having success in the NFL. When was that? When Steve McNair faked an injury to get Young into the Pro Bowl as an alternate? He sure as hell hasn’t succeeded on the field.

 

What do you base that on?

 

The fact that it’s true? Philip Rivers bowed out of his Pro Bowl spot because of injury, then Steve McNair declined his invitation as an alternate because Vince Young was up after him. Steve McNair sent Vince Young to the Pro Bowl, not Vince Young. Coincidentally, Young made it to the 2010 Pro Bowl the same way: Philip Rivers withdrew, and Young took Rivers’ spot.

So, again: what success has Vince Young achieved? He’s never played a full 16 game season; he’s never quarterbacked his team to the playoffs (Kerry Collins, of all people, did); he’s never won a playoff game. Hell, Mark Sanchez is a more accomplished quarterback than Vince Young, and Mark Sanchez has the added benefit of not being mentally unbalanced.

I am totally mystified by your pushing for Vince Young. The guy is everything one should avoid in a QB.

 

But then VY threw his uniform in the stands and walked out of the building only to be chased by team mates. Don't see that guy changing his ways honestly......

 

That’s not quite accurate.

1. Young threw his pads, not his uniform, into the stands.
2. A teammate (Bo Scaife, IIRC) chased after Young to bring him back to the locker room after Young had his confrontation with Fisher.

 

Yeah Young is a mess we get it...

 

PBowls are nice but we both know they are not the be all and alls of anything.

Yes he did, in 2007, he Qb'd the Titans to the playoffs.

Rodgers was sorta shaky in the playoffs himself until this season.

Has missed games, no doubt about that one, comes with the package, however last season Fisher shut him down, will say that he did more with the same team then Collins did, in 09 he went 8-2 and Collins went 0-6 with the same squad, in 2010 he went 4-4 and was benched in favor of Collins who preceeded to finish 2-5, with the same team.

Granted this is not MLB, Young however does seem to maximize the play of those around him.

Because Des, this is a Talent driven league the blah blah blah means nothing if a Qb can win games, heard far far worse about Mike Vick, and how do you like him now?

 

Presumably one read the quoted article earlier in the thread? Young was on the sidelines throwing the ball just fine and Fisher instead put in Rusty Smith to try and win a game that was a "must win"?

Sorry bro, that is as big of a "**** you" as Fisher could manage as he tossed away a season rather then letting Young try to win the game, and folks " Young was angry he tossed is pads in the stands and told the sainted Jeff Fisher to go **** himself, the horror!!!"

TBH, I'd be angry myself, the coach just screwed over the entire team, as Rusty Smith is not winning that ball game, in fact he threw the Int that led to the loss, bye bye playoffs, just to screw Young over which is certainly how it appears to me.,..

 

Let me add, 99% we are not adding Vince Young, I'd put Orton at maybe 85% against adding him, and here is why:

The "right" people are saying we are not going to add them, what I mean by that:

-Mike Lombardi comes out and say "gosh I studied film on Kyle Orton and I just don't like him" well that's nice, who is Mike Lombardi?

He is a Tuna shill in the media, recall he broke the story early in the week that Sparano would be back, that Tuna had chatted with Ross and convinced him to keep Sparano? That was not by accident.

-Mort says "Young was looked at but "dismissed the idea"

How would he know that sort of information?

A. that Young had been discussed in Miami
B. the idea had been dismissed

Someone told him, that is how, fellas the only names that have not been dismissed outright through the NFL media types are:

-Carson Palmer
-Kevin Kolb

Those are the only two thought to be on the market Qb's who we would seem to be interested in, whom none of the usual suspects have dismissed coming to Miami, even Hasselback and Alex Smith are having noises made that they will be back with their fmr employers.

 

That's all Lombardi is? Nothing more than a Tuna shill? I thought he was a former GM who may have a idea about how to evaluate players.

 

That is how the game works in the NFL media, they are used all of the time to let information "slip" or let whatever be known.

 

That’s not what I saw in 2007.

Scoring 45 points in a loss is shaky? Okay.

I don’t understand why you’re being cavalier about his injury history.

When? Who? I really question if you’ve actually watched Vince Young play football for any significant period of time. The Titans look better when he isn’t quarterbacking.

You do understand that Michael Vick became a good QB because he stopped playing like Vince Young, right? Compare tape of Vick from six years ago to his 2010 season. Vick is actually playing QB, as opposed to playing a Wildcat RB with an open tight end.

Gotta be honest, the vagueness of your answers tells me you don’t really have a lot of substance to your desire for Young.

 

That's not the point. He's done that, and shown the bad side of his emotions far too often. He is trouble waiting to happen, and Miami already has a hot head who plays Wr. No thanks to two of them.

Yeah, his Coach and his Therapist said he mentioned wanting to kill himself because they had it out for him! He may not have REALLY wanted to kill himself but he seems to have absolutely thought about it. So his second thought was just quiting football in 2008 because things were just not going his way. He felt sorry for himself and as much promise Young has shown, he's shown twice as much of the opposite imo.

I guess to be fair, I have never been a Vince Young fan. I love the pocket passing Qb's and have never been much of a fan of Running Backs staking claim to the position.

 

Desides--Have you watched the Titans lately?? I strongly doubt it. The Titans have looked 10 times better with VY in than "The Statue" Kerry Collins, and that's not even a debate among Titan fans. Since Vince's rookie year (06), he is 30-17 as starter. Collins is 15-17. And those Collins numbers even include the 13-4 season in 08 where Vince never got to play with the Titans best team in years. That's twice as many wins for the same number of losses for those scoring at home. These last 2 years: In 09, Collins was 0-6, then Vince went 8-2. In '10, Vince was 4-4, Collins was 2-5. Same teams throughout (except '08 bc Vince didn't play).

And your Vick comment makes it official: You have not watched Vince AT ALL recently (or maybe Vick). These last few years, Vince has run FAR less than the first 2. In fact, he often seems hesitant to take off, prompting many people to think he should run more. Don't believe me? Let's take a look:

In 9 games and 156 pass attempts, Vince ran 25 times (including kneels i think) in 2010. So less than 3 runs per game, and one for about every 6-7 throws. QB rating of 98. (For comparison, his rookie year Vince ran 83 times in 13 starts and 357 passes)
In 12 games and 372 throws, Vick ran 100 times in 2010. That's over 8 per game, and one run for every 3-4 throws. QB rating of 100.
Any way you slice those numbers, Vick ran MORE than Vince this year, with very similar passer ratings, so your comment is entirely incorrect.

Oh, and if not Vince, who QB'd Tenn to the 07 playoffs? His supporting cast sure was amazing weren't they..

 

Que aflac duck:

Winless is winless right>?

11 pt loss is on Young?

Eh, they happen, in the NFL now a Qb playing all 16 is more difficult then it once was, you need a good #2 Qb..ie..Young or Henne.

You can disagree with me, you cannot disagree with the numbers.

You do recall Vick broke back into the NFL by running the WC in Philly..right?

Gotta be honest, not buying your football decision making opinion on this one, your argument anti is largely blah blah blah, one does not engage presented facts, one also does not comment specifically on his performance, or his record,

Love ya Des, but take the emotion out of it and just look at the facts.

 

They look better? They also lose more when he wasn't the QB. Look good losing I guess.

 

Yes, clearly Vince's problems stem only from the fact that Jeff Fisher has decided to randomly hate him for no reason.

 

Much of this is hooey that I won't address but I will address a few points.

1. On the 11-8 record last year. The following are his snap counts for every game he's played the last 3 years. I've highlighted games where I think he did NOT play significantly enough to count.

Year Week Opponent Snaps
2008 1 JAX @ TEN 53 / 62
2008 13 TEN @ DET 11 / 72
2008 17 TEN @ IND 30 / 39
2009 5 IND @ TEN 8 / 65
2009 6 TEN @ NE 16 / 51
2009 8 JAX @ TEN 67 / 67
2009 9 TEN @ SF 55 / 55
2009 10 BUF @ TEN 65 / 65
2009 11 TEN @ HST 70 / 70
2009 12 ARZ @ TEN 75 / 75
2009 13 TEN @ IND 79 / 79
2009 14 SL @ TEN 15 / 60
2009 15 MIA @ TEN 62 / 62
2009 16 SD @ TEN 51 / 51
2009 17 TEN @ SEA 68 / 68
2010 1 OAK @ TEN 61 / 61
2010 2 PIT @ TEN 33 / 68
2010 3 TEN @ NYG 63 / 63
2010 4 DEN @ TEN 55 / 55
2010 5 TEN @ DAL 59 / 59
2010 6 TEN @ JAX 11 / 65
2010 8 TEN @ SD 44 / 61
2010 10 TEN @ MIA 29 / 67
2010 11 WAS @ TEN 34 / 55

Again, the games in bold, I did not count. He didn't play enough snaps. The other 19 games, I counted.

2. I have no idea how anyone could spin the Titans into being "forced" to get rid of Young. It was obvious to everyone, fans, coaches, players, etc...that Jeff Fisher and Vince Young don't co-exist. Jeff Fisher looked like he was going to stay on so they made the decision to get rid of Young. Then Fisher was ousted anyway, easiest thing in the world would have been to say Vince is staying now, that they've made that decision. There's no reason they couldn't have done that. They're getting rid of the man they drafted #3 overall and paid a ton of money to because they don't want him on their team. There's no need to spin it. It is what it is.

3. Point with the 47% was that he "won" game by being minimized and having the defense and ground game play a bigger role in the team than him. He generally has not had to win by taking the team on HIS back. It doesn't matter whether Fisher kept his role minimal or not. He still didn't generally have to put the team on his back.

4. Last year his QB Rating was 98, on about a third of a the pass attempts of a full season starter. You can find stretches of 150 pass attempts from Chad Henne where he has a 90+ QB Rating, I'm sure. SAMPLE ERROR. Don't know if you know what that is or not.