Cold Hard Football Facts: The Case for Vince Young

Brady and Manning are established veterans. Don't try to tell me that Brady in his 2nd year starting was any more pocket aware than Henne is right now, because he wasn't. I think most of us can well remember the 2001 playoffs, where an indecisive young Brady had the ball stripped on the infamous tuck rule play. Ten year vet Brady very likely would not have gotten stripped on that play in the first place.
The Raiders got jobbed and that was a fumble all the way. Brady was hitting the panic button and the fooking officials bailed him out with their reversal. Brady averaged 12 fumbles a year in his first three seasons as a starter. That bespeaks of lack of pocket awareness to me.
Henne has averaged 4.5 fumbles.

 

Did Brady look clumsy and play bad?

 

Does a pocket aware QB fumble 12 times a season? Or is it ok to fumble just so long as you look graceful doing it?

 

Sure, because hes' standing in there trying to do too much not panicking and throwing a wounded duck which we saw way too many times last year.

Tom Brady still gets sacked the same amount today as Henne does. According to your statistic that makes them the same pocket awareness wise. They had the same attempts.

 

There you go again, wanting to compare an established 10 yr vet, one of the all time best, to a 2nd yr QB who is still developing. For sacks over their first two full seasons starting, Henne had 56 and Brady had 72

 

On the contrary. “Run the ball, stop the run” has been NFL dogma for 40 years. You simply don’t get guys like Tony Sparano, John Fox, or Mike Smith running teams if it’s not. The Andy Reid types are still a minority even after the runaway success of the ‘80s and ‘90s 49ers and the Bill Walsh coaching tree in general.

Ground and pound is not a progressive advancement of the game of football, or even an effective way to win. It’s a throwback, just like the Wildcat.

I guess we have a fundamental difference of interpretation of what NFL teams are doing, because I don’t see the Saints or Patriots spending “heavily” on running backs at all. The Saints are jettisoning one running back for another, while keeping a UDFA and a street free agent. The Patriots added middle round depth to a committee. If you don’t think the Saints aren’t dependent on Drew Brees, or the Patriots aren’t dependent on Tom Brady, then there’s just nothing left to talk about.

And Vince Young is still a horrible option for the Dolphins.

 

Am I alone in thinking he'd be Daunte Culpepper mach II?

I dont get the love for this guy.

I think he's a headcase and more importantly: He Sucks.

 

Hey, Brady's first year and his second year, nobody was complaining about his clumsiness or his lack of pocket awareness. That's year 1 and 2 of starting.

Both years over 10 points QBR higher. Second year 28 Tds. Does henne even have 28 tds yet? And that's in an offense where everyone says Belichick cradled Brady

You have somehow developed a litmus test for pocket awareness ... and that is fumbles apparently. I'm trying to tell you that fumbles do not equal lack of pocket awareness. It could be a QB who refuses to throw it away and tries to do too much. Warren Moon holds the record for fumbles It has nothing to do with pocket awareness. That's my point.

EDIT: Oops it's Brett Favre now. Another QB with no pocket awareness.

 

I agree Brady obviously was more productive, not even close. Never had an inkling to argue otherwise. Belichick cradled Brady? Never heard that term applied before, regarding them. More like he surrounded him with a good OC, and supporting talent in a scheme geared toward his strengths

As for pocket awareness, how do you measure it? What is your "litmus test"? Either, it is a subjective measure, such as some folks do when they say a certain QB just has "it" because looking at them they can just tell, or else we look at things like sacks and fumbles. IMO, a QB often fumbles because he does not sense the rush or when he is about to be hit, and/or he lacks peripheral vision. The same could be said for sacks, a QB doesn't have an open receiver, so stands in too long, and gets sacked, rather than throwing the ball away. That IMO would both be equated with lack of pocket awareness. I would say a QB who refuses to throw the ball away and tries to do too much such as you describe, would be as likely to throw the pass into tight coverage and be more apt to risk an int to make a play.
Henne to me does not look clumsy in the pocket, like some stumble bum with two left feet, nor is he close to being the most graceful athletic QB to play. Somewhere in the middle. He is aware of the rush when he is in the pocket and avoids sacks by throwing the ball away when necessary and when he does take a sack he maintains control of the ball pretty well. I read somewhere he either led the league in throw aways or was pretty close.
You said Henne does not know what do when he panics. I'm not sure he is in a panic because to me that means he isn't in control of his emotions. I don't see him as being out of control emotionally.

I get the impression you don't like Henne as our QB, and feel he is not worth continued development. Ok. We see things different when it comes to him.

 

Clutch? If he is clutch, Marino was unstoppable god

No way, reg season isnt what I am after, in playoffs and games to get there, he was a dud not clutch.

 

i agree with Oz, I will puke. Look throw out all the stats you want, he wons some reg season games, and yes you need to win those. Vy s not a winner from what I have seen of him. he is an immature prima donna. I dont want a qb that goes on a suicide watch when he is benched. Henne may or may not be it, but when he faaced adversity, he didnt throw a tirade, he didnt disappear, he didnt cry like a baby. VY didnt and hasnt won when it counted, he wasnt "clutch" when Tenn season was on the line. That is from my eyes.

If people feel otherwise, fine, but franchise guys are not just cut. If he is the winner that everyone feels he is, why is Tenn letting him go? Why did they need to draft Locker?

Take emotion out of it, if it werent for VY legs, would he have been the 3rd pick in the draft? If it was the passing game alone, where would his value have been? and has only imporved marginally.

no thanks

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=6569714

"9. QB Vince Young to the Miami Dolphins
The Dolphins want to bring in competition for Chad Henne, and although they would prefer to trade for Carson Palmer, the Bengals aren't expected to fulfill Palmer's request to be dealt. Matt Hasselbeck would be too expensive, and although Donovan McNabb might be an option, Young seems to be a better fit. He's a running quarterback, and the Dolphins plan to run the ball. With Young, they can still use Henne and put Young in Wildcat-type formations. Young has to land somewhere, and Miami would be a good spot."

Clayton seems to think this is a likely scenario. I'm not a Vince Young fan, I don't want him here. If he would agree to be the wildcat Qb/Rb/Wr and backup Henne I think he has value here but I don't see that, I think he will want to start and will pout and make trouble on a team if he's a backup. Unless the team is the Pats or Saints, etc.

 

Again dodging the point, why? no argument? I didnt say he didnt win games, in crunch time or playoffs he didnt win. period.

The suicide watch was a strtch the point comment but he did go missing and he did sulk for the remainder of that season. Henne may have been unhappy but it didnt carry on for months and yes VY did sulk and whine abouit it, his mother did as well. No plausible deniability there.

They drafted Matt Ryan because they felt he wasa franchise guy and Vick was cut. I dont get the point, you in no way dispute my point. If Atlanta had a fraqnchise qb they dont cut him and draft Ryan. If we are there and can draft Luck and Henne fails in his last shot, you draft Luck and cut Henne. We didnt have a franchise type qb available to us. And none of teh qbs this year met that criteria, a couple have that potential, but they all played in a funky offense that creates risk that they arent ready or as ready as you would want your franchise top 5 pick to be.

It makes a diff because while the ability to run will help you win games and overcome some shortcomings in the passing game vs equal or lesser teams at times, vs the best teams in critical junctures of the season those passing limitations are exposed and should have been considered when selecting him. If you felt that the passing game alone was not elite level or could develop elite then 3rd is way too high to take him. In other words risk of bust is very high and getting cut doesnt say to all look I have made it to the top.

Everyone is so eager to replace Henne with someone that has as many questions as Henne. It is not looking at both with the same critical eye. It is disliking one and looking at the other with hopeful eyes.

 

Facts dont say otherwise, He's an NCAAA+ QB who can't hack it in the NFL.
Headcase stuff is in the passed? Did you miss his *****fit this season?

Jesus Christ Padre, I hope you're getting a cut as his agent.

 

I'd take Young. But only after exhausting all other options, and I wouldn't give up anything to get him.

 

I can take 10 games of tape and put it up against any of those guys last season Pod, and show you that the superior QB is on our team...

Its obvious that were gonna sign someone, so I wouldn't be upset if we signed young, he won't cost draft picks..... as long as he is humbled, ready to start over and make a correct name, and hes committed in the weight room...We could run that Hybrid offense that I dream of...

 

I think folks who don't like Henne better start to get that unity is being built as we speak, players are talking, they know damn well he took the hit, so my point is, good luck with Kyle orton or vince young winning this team over over Henne...By the time this peculiar offseason is over The players may not want to watch anyone else's back besides Henne, and I don't blame them.

 

Henne made very few mistakes before the benching, 12 ints is about where I see him, and thats fine, its about right, so I'am not gonna put undo pressure on him in the first game if he throws one..He doesn't deserve that..Give the man some space Pod.

 

Fine...if you guys won't buy-in with the Vince young idea I'm starting a sign Brett FAV-RAH movement!

Now how do you feel about Young!

 

Young is #1 on my board, including over Henne.

 

I'll take Brett. He wouldn't see the field.

 

OK coach, let me see somethin here, got a good question for ya

Considering the circumstances, {no draft picks, competition, possibilities} Vince Young is #1 on my board as well, if indeed the plan is to sign someone good..The athletic QB is something I have coveted for a long time, so here is my question,

Tell me we can become the first NFL team to adopt a multidimensional offense with 3 interchangable QB's, Henne, Young, DT, and go there, create packages for each, and implement all three in each game plan? do we have the balls to do it, and would you be all about it?

This is something that I have been talking about for 3 years..I really want to go there coach...Multidimensionaloffensivetheorybaby..

 

So you would Padre?, you'd go all out and run a hybrid, why the fu$#not, we would be bad ***, with our defense, shoot..

 

I'd normally agree with giving him a chance here, but this is a special case.

** What does it say that one of the better coaches in the league, a players coach by all rights, could not get this kid to put out 100% effort to capitalize on the obvious talent that is there ?? This wasn't a kid that had to do it all himself (Carr, Harrington, Smith, etc). This was a kid that had all the intangibles to being successful around his organization...This staff also made some mediocre [talent wise] QBs look pretty decent over the years as well.

** While he's won in Tenn, there are pretty decent offensive skilled players around him including just about the best RB in the league, a solid D and a pretty good talent-acquisition organization as well.

** VY has NOT shown, had written about him, talked, said, twitted, or FB'd a thing regarding him 'turning a page' or changing for the better or however you want to say it. The kid, so far, doesn't get it. Something that a QB HAS to have to be successful. For all the QBs out there that don't have the physical tools and talent, it's a real shame that VY just hasn't figured it out yet...

** Sparano/Ireland can't afford to take the chance and him fail...again...this coming year.

** There likely isn't going to be the time for him to adapt to this system adequately anyway because of the labor issues.

There might be even one or two more reasons...

 

pissass...lol

 

How many Playoff games did he win? Yeah no thanks.