Play QB a little bit? Don't we need a qb who can play qb a lot. Short off season with Young trying to learn the play book = disaster.
Like Young is going to learn the whole playbook anyway, it would be more of a case of "okay, let Vince run around and try and create something"
I don't care what you've argued, you've not argued very successfully. What I've posted about Vince is the straight up truth. Don't like it, fine. Don't listen to it. But I'll continue posting what is true about Vince Young. Why did I randomly start in 2008? Because that's the furthest back the snap data goes on Pro Football Focus. Some of that snap data was necessary to tell me whether to count a game that Vince played significantly in or not. Not that it matters. A winner is a winner, right? If he played for three teams that can go 16-14 with Kerry Collins, he should be able to do significantly better than that because he's a winner, right? Except he didn't. As for the 47%, you can attribute it conservative play calling, but over the exact same time period, Kerry Collins had 51% of his snaps go as drop backs. Obviously they trusted him more. And that's not even the point. The point is that Vince Young has rarely had to have a game be put on HIS back as a passer. Yes I'm sure Jeff Fisher called the cops about potential suicide just to sabotage his quarterback well in advance of his decision to part ways with Vince. Sure. Right. Nice, the quarterback and leader of a team throwing a punch at his own teammate during practice. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/peter_king/09/15/Week2/4.html Yeah, I'm sure it's all nothing.
Not particularly effectively Ck at least imho. So, if you cannot find the stats then it means they are not worth finding? To simplify: last two seasons: Kerry Collins 2-11 Vince Young 11-6 Same team, Young got better results with the same players which is one of the benchmarks of a good Qb... 4% and 7 come back wins and 12 Gw drives in 42 games is fairly clutch CK. The same person who bemoans how Mallett was passed over now uses innuendo about Young based on Fisher's actions? Would like to see some that transfer over to Chad Henne. Sure, from 3 yrs ago, that is the funny thing about view on Young, what happened in that period of time is the lense that is used to view him now, fact is he has flipped in terms of performance and behavior, and yet here comes the same blah blah blah about personal stuff with no real acknowledgement of his play from 2009-2010 and how Fisher clearly seemed deranged when it came to Vince Young. 4 all pro Titans have issues with Fisher each of the last 4 seasons, that goes without comment, Vince Young has innuendo put to him from 3 yrs ago, along with misperceptions that are clearly off base and it is treated as gospel truth? What is it about Vince Young that just brings this out in folks? He is sort of like McNabb Jr whenever it comes to examining his play on the field being eshewed for discussions of anything but his play.
I happen to think Chad Henne can play Qb a little bit. Maybe even a little bit better than Vince! WITH THE RIGHT PLAYERS AROUND HIM
Which is what makes him a good competitor for Henne, keep in mind the OP: Some nice company, not the whole story of course as there is stat monkery in there however aside from Kitna those are the big names in the NFL when it comes to Qb's.
See, that is one of the misconceptions that I've been speaking about, I WANT Young to run more, he ran less and less and became a clearly better passer with his QBR going from 71% to 80% to 90%, but why take an outstanding runner and anchor him into the pocket?
How can it be a misconception? Because you want him to run? Like I said, I like pocket Qb's! Ratings mean hardly nothing to me when it comes to a Qb as well. Get me an outstanding runner and make him an outstanding running back...
Vince has always been a guy who struggles to make basic reads and go in to his 3rd and 4th progressions. I havent seen that change and until I see him learn to do it with any consistency and stop relying on his athletic ability (which he did less last year) Im not interested at all. The guy also is not a leader from what I have seen..hes a guy who likes to play hero but he needs a starring role every game, every play or he seems generally sour and disinterested. I have felt that way about him since he was at Texas and I have tried to watch him objectively but I really dont see much change. So keep it movin. He can be the backup but if hes the starter, then start the "Suck for Luck" campaign now cause thats where we are going to be ending up. With his passing ability he can make a mediocre team terrible.
Ck, you're entitled to your opinion but you gotta present fair facts. Just bc PFF starts in 08 doesn't make it a fair representation. 08 is the only season Collins has been even mediocre with the Titans, and Vince won his only game with the starters that year. At the very least, you have to start in 09 (as Padre did), because Vince didn't play in 08 (take out 07 too if you want--the numbers are still overwhelmingly in Vince's favor). Using the 08 stats with other years is comparing win-loss records on 2 different teams. Can you at least admit that that is not a fair representation of the two QBs? I honestly don't see how you can stand by those when all the other (fair) numbers are so clearly in Vince's favor. The 47% vs 51% still goes back to Fisher. And he did not like Vince. For whatever reason, that is clear. The fact that Fisher and Vince did not like each other is not even an argument. Playcalling is Fisher's call, so it would make sense that he would give less throws to the QB he dislikes (and constantly benched) than the QB he liked. And as Padre showed, Vince has won plenty of games with his arm, both late in games and early on. Like you, I do have a somewhat hard time believing that Fisher consciously tried to sabotage Vince with the suicide call (although plenty of Nashvillians believe it). But--that still does not mean the call was warranted. Vince is licensed to carry a gun legally, and it was found unloaded, in his glove compartment. He had an alibi that checked out as to where he was the whole time. He was with other people and didn't answer his phone. Happens all the time. He was not committing suicide. Fear of someone committing suicide does not equal committing suicide. For the punching incident--another one where you have to know the full story, because in fact one could easily make the argument that Vince was being a leader there. Donnie Nickey, a special teams / practice squad safety (he's known as a feisty/dirty player, for good or bad), had just decked multiple Titan receivers (in practice) with blows that would now carry a hefty fine. On the last play (and maybe one or two before), the receiver got injured and stayed down. After he saw it, Vince ran over and got in the guy's face obviously trying to tell him to stop doing that, and eventually threw that "punch." So in short, Nickey was hurting his own teammates in practice, and Vince was defending his receivers right there. Ok, so you found one retired player to knock Vince's work ethic like 3 years ago. Other than that, it's all anonymous sources from so-called experts. ESPN is a freaking drama machine, and those reporters have built close relationships with Fisher for the last 17 years. Mortenson's son even got signed by the Titans at some point (he sucked of course). All of the public comments from current teammates (and others that have moved to other teams) have been on Vince's side. If you were on a team where your QB had gotten fired but your coach still carried weight, what benefit would you get from supporting Vince? None, you would get punished (as Scaife did by getting benched). And yet CJ, Britt, Scaife, Griffin, Bulluck, and others have all publicly supported Vince, a few (Scaife and Bulluck) even went so far as to point the finger at Fisher. CJ said the locker room would completely welcome Vince back if he were able to return. And did you see what happened to that team after the Fisher-VY fight?? (probably not) They completely quit. Straight up. Offense, defense, it didn't matter. The team fell to pieces. 1-6 the rest of the year. I will believe that the coach was against Vince, but the players? I don't see it at all. But to be honest there's no way we can really prove this either way. Look, I understand that a lot of y'all heard all of this stuff from the national media back then, but the truth is that they aren't giving you the full picture. Those guys don't care about the small-market Titans, they just want a good story for TV. Do you realize that 15-20 years ago all of these things like fights, partying etc would be complete non-stories and never be noticed? That didn't make those players any worse. And for on-field stuff, the bottom line is you haven't watched him play. Fine, you can argue that his 2010 stats don't count bc of the sample size (although they just as easily could be a true representation), but I have watched almost every VY game of his career. In the first two years, the comments were somewhat accurate regarding his passing. But after 08, the offense was different, and he was making throws that he never even attempted in Chow's offense of his first years. Reads improved, he mastered the deep ball, and his accuracy got way better (he got much better at changing speed/height of his passes instead of just drilling them in or floating too much--this was a big factor in reducing INTs). Like Padre said, he actually doesn't run enough anymore, yet people still criticize him for running too much. And don't discount the threat that his legs pose on a defense even when he doesn't use him--a QB spy is one less defender in coverage, and the DE has to stay home on any potential handoff/bootleg. Those things don't show up in a statbook.
See that is the thing though B14, he made a mediocre team competitive, has done so for the last 2 seasons in TN.
Actually what hes done is replace an old and at times inconsistent QB the last two seasons with young, inconsistent QB play. IMO the QB play is what holds that team back from being a playoff team.
Eh, convenient statement though B14 "better Qb play would have..." 25 teams that the same could be said of, Young had the Titans in the hunt in 09 clearly his reinsertion into the lineup was the proximate cause for the 7-2 run, in 10 he was 4-4 and Collins 2-5, same team. And what is keeping the Titans from being a consistent playoff team is found in Indianapolis and is wearing #18. I also think we won't be able to consistently out game plan Belicheck, you need to out talent his Patriots teams, as we can never match them draft pick for draft pick we simply must add talent by any means neccessary imho. INOW, he finds "smart, tough, disciplined" players as well, so where is our edge? Right now, we do not have one, which is why they blew us out twice in 2010, and no Dolphins fan is willing to talk about how to flip that script.
Still no doubt in my mind in this situation Vince Young is our best option. Both in the long and short term.
Coach I asked you a question in another thread that I think you missed, or I missed it, can we run a 3 dimensional offense with Henne/Young/DT..? Could it be viable and effective, a 2 QB system that is? Why not have a 2 headed system where we don't mix up plays, just drives? Its crazy I know, but we are the ones that started this whole stuff.. forget it, Iam just dreamin huh?
We tried that with Jason Taylor and a great defense and it just did not work out Deej. Have to find that edge Deej, the WC gave us an edge for a time, but notice how quickly they adjusted to it? That is what I'm speaking of, we have to find edges at any and all opportunities. BB can game plan a D to shut down Chad Henne, how is he going to game plan a D when VY rushes for 150 yds and 2 Td's?
Little-known fact. Vince Young and Joe Flacco have by far the least efficiency converting touchdowns when their numbers are called in Goal-to-Go situations. Young has had his number called on a run or pass 74 times. He's scored 16 touchdowns (passing and running), and turned the ball over 2 times. Out of 32 QBs measured, that's 2nd worst, by a wide margin between himself and the 3rd worst guy (Alex Smith).
For his career, or for the last two yrs when his passing improved? And how much of that is a reflection of Fisher's desire for how the offense should operate? IIRC correctly he used LenDale White the way Shula used to use Ron Davenport in 07, in 09 CJ had 14 Td's, in 10 they tried to use Javon Ringer in the White role and he failed at it so perhaps that is where Britt's 9 Td's came from? But at least the discussion is over his actual play.
Career. And the stat doesn't really have anything to do with run/pass tendencies. If anything, calling a lot of run plays in that situation should make play action all the more sellable, to where a higher percentage of Vince Young's snaps end in touchdowns. The average of the 32 QBs measured was about 33.2%. In other words, about 1 in 3 of times your number gets called on Goal-to-Go, you as a quarterback score a TD either passing or running. Vince Young is stuck around 21.6%, about 1 in 5 snaps. Of course it's even lower if you just count passing. If you just count passing (Pass TDs / Attempts+Sacks), the 32 QBs measured still stay at 33.2%, but Vince drops to 16.7%...literally HALF as likely to throw a touchdown as the rest of the league. By the way as I said on Twitter, Mark Sanchez led the 32 QBs as far as total efficiency in Goal-to-Go but it should be noted that the average number of attempts for the 32 QBs measured was 165, and Sanchez only has 31 such attempts, so it could very well be a temporary statistical anomaly. Other than Sanchez, Tony Romo, Carson Palmer, Tom Brady, Jason Campbell, Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger, Derek Anderson, Peyton Manning and Matt Ryan round out the top 12.
Thing is, how illustrative is it of Young overall? What I mean by that is clearly he has played more efficiently as a passer since 2007, but was the offense somewhat punchless? Who does that performance compare to? How many trips did they make inside the 10 yd line? Stuff like that, it does sound like he is inefficient at the goal line, but so is Chad Henne and he had better talent to work with at Wr, so much so they used to pull him to run the WC to score Td's inside the 10. And most importantly, for comparison's sakes, how did Kerry Collins perform in that situation? Head to head over 2009 and 2010?
That tells you how much I dislike Young as an option for us, because I am always optimistic and hopeful. Young fills me with dread
1. Vince Young's stats did not really change over time. Isolating just 2009 & 2010, Vince was 3 of 17 (17.6%) purely passing the ball and 4 of 20 (20.0%) running+passing. The latter is actually worse than his career average. He fumbled once but did not lose it. 2. Over the same time period, from 2009 to 2010, Kerry Collins was 9 of 23 (39.1%) purely passing, and 9 of 24 (37.5%) running+passing. He did not turn the ball over. Conclusion: You can't lay this one on the Tennessee offense. Vince Young was half as likely as Kerry Collins to punch the ball in the end zone from the tight red area in 2009 and 2010.
Anything is possible, but its not probable. We might have some type of wildcat package thats special personel. But I doubt a 3 headed QB system is going to work.
No disputing those facts, Young is not good in goal to go situations. Which I find odd as he is highly mobile, but suspect defenses just sag back into the EZ and force him to make decisions. Hard to believe a 6'5 230 pd Qb cannot find a way to punch it in for TD's.
My thoughts exactly Deej, the NFL does things in certain ways and a player conforms or they will not receive opportunities to perform at all.
Classic movie. Don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the moring, Moriar-ity. Donald Sutherland at his finest. Good turns by Captain Stubing and Archie Bunker, too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuStsFW4EmQ
Sometimes we take this stuff waay to seriously jim1. I mean, if Young winds up in Miami, great, ditto Bulger or Orton or whomever, just as long as we have a viable option I'm fine with it.
All Star Cast. One of my top 3 all time Clint movies, along with Unforgiven and The Outlaw Josey Wales. Telly Savalas, Don Rickles, Clint of course, as well as some great characters actors like Jeff Morris, Harry Dean Stanton, Stuart Margolin aka Angel from The Rockford Files, and Len Lesser aka Uncle Leo from Seinfeld.
I think enough of your knowledge of football, that if I were opposed to Young coming to Miami, I would rethink my point of view on the matter.
Coaches, and myself, love that athletic ability Mr C, to me anything that makes the team faster/larger/more upside is what we need. Thought TBH, I have not thrown in the towel on Tyler Thigpen, theory being if Colt McCoy can be Mike Holmgren's "Qb of the future" under Daboll's tutelage who knows what Thiggy can do in the same philosophy? Though Thiggy needs the Chris Palmer accuracy work throwing passes to flags staked all around the football field, day after day after day, that is what is credited as making Eli Manning a more accurate passer.
