CK, the problem with this theory is that you aren't considering the circumstances of their snaps. I watched the Pitt game, and let me tell you how it went: Vince started, and although he moved the ball fairly well, he had those 3 turnovers that you mentioned, getting benched, while only down by a little. Collins comes in, throws a pick on his first drive, then later has 2 fumbles, one lost. (My memory's hazy, but he might have had an additional dropped pick as well, but regardless..) After all of that, the Steelers were way up, like multiple scores in the 4th quarter. At that point, they went into a prevent defense, and as is usually the case, the Titans started moving the ball, but obviously not enough to win, which is all the Steelers cared about. So the point is: Vince was up against a fully-aggressive/normal Steelers D in all of his snaps. When facing the same thing, Collins sucked. Once the Steelers relaxed, Collins built up his stats.. In the JAX game, Vince threw only 5 passes before leaving. BUT, the Titans were up by 14 (or more) already, so Collins job was simple.. On the other side, there was the Miami game--Collins started, and Vince came in with Titans losing. His one INT in that game (and the only one not against Pitt this season) came on a hail mary at the very end. So in short--that still isn't a great comparison because you've got the 2 playing in completely different scenarios. Another alternate way (if you want to check it out) is to compare their performances against same teams in different games (there might only be 1 or 2 this year, so might have to use 09 also) Having watched this team a lot over the years, I can promise you that the team has consistently looked and played much better with Vince in than Collins. Collins has had his flashes, but Vince has been much better game to game. Trust me, these last two years completely put the Collins vs. Vince debate to bed here in TN (in terms of performance). The only question was whether Vince should be here at all bc of the stuff with Fisher etc. That said, Kerry Collins should by no means be the measuring stick to compare potential FA qb's, so I'm not putting too much stock in Vince's superiority there.
I know whenever we've played the Titans the last 5 yrs, I always hoped we'd get Collins, or the statue that impersonates Collins, rather than Young. Stats aside, their offense just always seemed to me to play better with Young in the game.
13-3 with Collins doesnt seem all that bad to me. but hey were are trying to convince everyone VY is proven elite right? cant compare cause the scenario er what of the snap was diff? What? they played the same defense the same day in the same game. Comparison doesnt get any closer. course we have that thing called spin to discount reality. Sorry to be a smartarse not trying to bash you or your opinion, just saying to me IMO alot of people are trying to find anything to make VY into the qb they have envisioned in their head. Aside from all the stats which mean 0 to me, is the fact that come playoff time or end of season playoff push, VY disappeared, threw temper tantrums, just simply didnt get it done. You combine w/ clear demonstrated immaturity with 0 display of remorse or that he even wants to change and I dont get the love while at the same time wanting to throw Henne to the curb after he has had 1 3/4 seasons starting, 3 seasons in the league for a guy with at least 2 years more exp and has not been proven to be a qb you can win with (champ not reg season games) and has not been anymore of a leader. I just dont get it. And again I am with Ozzy, I'd puke
13-3 in 2008. Let's not forget that Tennessee was 2-11 in games started by Collins the past two seasons. In games started by VY the past 2 seasons, Tenn was 12-6.
Well, that is not quite so JMPhin, in 09 Young, benched for most of the yr, came off of the bench to lead them to a 8-1 record, in 10 he led them to a 4-4 record, injured his thumb and was willing to play with the injury and Fisher went with Rusty Smith instead, and deactivated Young for the rest of the yr, that is not on Young. What I would expect from Young is what he has shown he will do, 80%+ QBR, mid teens in TD's, and 1.4 to 1 Td to 1 Int ratio and hopefully about 500 yds in rushing and 5-7 rushing Td's, a Qb has to produce about 20 Tds to have a successful offense and they have to be turnover conscious.
I think a players "fit" into a system is a huge factor in their success. I also understand without question that players want to be wanted. They want to be used correctly, and they want to be successful. Vince Young's days with the Titans were fumbled by that organization from the day they drafted him where they let it leak that there was division about selecting him. This all started a downward cycle for him in Tennessee. While it does have SOME relation to evaluating how Young may do in Miami, his time with the Titans really doesn't ensure anything. Is he capable of growing up? Is he capable of improving his play in a new system? Is he capable of not repeating the same mistakes while continuing to do the things right that he did do well? Could a fresh start and a key role make him the player that he was in college? Could he consistently make plays in the NFL and maintain healthy relationships? Is he a bad person or can he mature and improve? How he does in Miami (if he came here) is based on many things relative only to being here in Miami. New coaches, new relationships, new scheme, new reads. He is plenty talented enough to succeed in a Pro offense. He is young enough to have a high reward in bringing him in and letting him compete. Sparano supposedly did alot of work researching how players with quality footwork created more chunk yardage than those that did not have the footwork to create additional time on a play. Of the available pool of players at QB that will be available, he's clearly the best choice for us when it comes to scheme, skills, and age. He also has the footwork to create plays. He has accuracy and arm strength. He's the only QB on the available list that could become a monster player in Miami. I'm talking about dominating the league folks, not just starting. Also, don't think for one minute that the players here wouldn't love having him. Vince Young would bring alot of excitement to this city, and put asses in the seats. Add to all this that he can be had without losing a draft pick...
All questions that can only be answered by bringing him in. And whether or not he is willing to work, with Young it would take..ohh..5 seconds..watching him workout to decide whether or not he has matured, if he is out of shape, do not touch him imho. I'd put him at #2 simply because the offense is not designed to maximize what he does well, to me you can just plug Orton in and call it "done" with Young there will have to be changes made to accomodate his skillset. That is something rarely talked about Coach Mike, players really react to the Qb position, as in play harder, unless they are in the 1% if self driven type of people, that is what made the Ravens and Bucs defenses so special they knew their Qb stunk, but they dominated anyway, that is hard to find. For most players they tend to play down to their perceived level of the team imho, how else can it be explained that Collins went 0-6 and Young 4-4, with the same team? How is a team winning when their Qb produced a mere 10 Td's in 8 games? THAT is a tough way to win but they found a way with Young, with Collins, not so much. To me, Young has the keys to his future in his hands, if he get's himself into top shape and is obviously willing to do whatever is asked of him, then why not? I also think it is a testimony to how the NFL wants things done that Fisher was willing to take the #2 Qb at creating yds with his legs and anchor him in the pocket, that is stunning to me, and an opportunity imho.
Orton may be staying in Denver. Even if he does leave though I prefer Young over him. I even prefer Henne to Orton. I really like Jeff Fisher as a coach, but I do think on the Vince Young issue he let things get away from him. Norm Chow may have been the start of the problems with Young too. I've always believed that Young wants to be a great player. Bringing him in and evaluating him is the first step. Orton can't hold a candle to Young in our scheme (if we run what I suspect we are going to run). Daboll will run something more similar to NE than what he ran in Cleveland IMO. We'll be somewhat of a spread team from the pistol and shotgun. We'll also run some power and traditional sets. A true multiple set offense.
Not I Bro, to me Orton is the plum of this offseason. Well, what happens if Henne clearly beats him out in Training Camp, if there is one? What does Young do, sulk, keep quite, say all the "right" things? That is the danger of Young and while I do think Fisher in his later time with TN was out of gas which is why each yr he had drama with a player, a good player, but all of the issues were not on Fisher if Young was playing good soldier and showing up early going home late and what have you, he would not be on the market imho. That is what I mean by obviously do whatever is asked of him, that sort of self responsiblity of saying "yeah the problems were my fault" whether they were or not, it would cost Young nothing to say that and it would be a huge sign that he has matured.
No, Do not think he would, he never has and knows he will hit FA in 2012, so why stress? And Draft picks bust out 50% of the time, compared to a Starting Qb who is under 30 and ascending and is experienced in the Pats style of offense is cheap potatoes. Young would also hit FA however he is not known for stability.
So Tenn won 2 sbs, I'm confused? I thought Pitt, NO and Gb won the last 3 sb's guess I was wrong. Again anything you say is your projection of what you blieve VY will or can do. Fact is he won some reg season games but Tenn hasnt gone any further than teh reg season with VY. Debate at will, doesnt change anything. It also doesnt change the first time he was benched they couldnt find him for a few days, suicide or no he got lost. Then he threw a hissy when benched last year. Interpret it however you want, believe what you want, but VY is not a proven commodity that is better than Henne Ridiculous IMO to banish henne and champion VY, utter lunacy
Nope, neither did 31 other teams win the SB in 09 or 10, should Manning and Brady etc then be thought of as poor players?
Thats a sham argument and you know it. Brady has won 3 SB, Manning 1, they have also won multiple playoff games and been to multiple champ games and SBs. Neither Brady nor Manning have been benched multiple times, neither went MIA or threw a hissy fit. That are also proven leaders of their teams. VY none of it. My point was never VY couldnt win games, it is that he isnt mature enough, enough of a leader to win when all teh marbles are on the line. He hasnt shown the professionalism to handle adversity. I domnt see VY leading player only workouts taking charge. Look you like VY, I dont get it, but thats cool, I respect your opinion. What boggles my mind is we are still debating this over and over as if one side is clearly right and one clearly right. Truth is VY could mature and develop or he could not. MO is that he has shown nothing that says he will and is a risk not worth taking. But neither side is convincing the other and hile I realize there is a lockout and there is not much to talk about but this thread is ridiciuously long not really saying anything new other than Reiterating why each other is right. I'd puke but it has happened before. I much rather get Gradkowski who isnt a lt answer but has proven he can win and is mobile. Also Grad has had to work for his opportunities and doesnt take it for granted. Orton is a nice option if he costs less than a 2nd. Thiggy also provides competition, I think with full reps he could challenge or at least push Henne. Henne may win these but he could lose it. I think VY is a shot in the dark.
No team is going to trade a premium draft pick for Orton without it including him agreeing to a new deal as part of the process.
It's all good Bro, tbh I'm not sure if I "like" Vince Young's game or not, I do think he is an option that should be strongly considered, but there is an element to Young that I feel the same way about Henne over, I really do not trust either one of them as a Qb if you see what I've been saying? I do not look at either guy and see a competent, technically proficient Qb who does all of the little things well and knows what decisions can hurt a teams' chances of winning and how to avoid them, I do think that Young offers a different dimension that can be used to help the team win. Like Gradkowski, but head to head vs Young? I'd rather just keep Thigpen.
yeah head to head solely on what we know. Young ceiling clearly was or is higher, I clearly think Young can sink us lower than Grad will. I am also one who feels if Henne isnt the answer, we go all in on the Andrew Luck sweepstakes, and no not suck so bad to draft #1, but package a bunch of picks and/or players to go up and get him at all costs. I dont see any qb that has any more % of taking us far than Henne has. Thats JMO. So if it isnt Henne, I would go after what is considered a franchise guy
Grad's problem is similar to Young's, he cannot stay on the field, Young has missed 19 games the last 3 yrs, Grad missed time in Clev, and seperated his shoulder vs us last yr and did not play again. Eh, cannot count on that JM, the Draft is just a crapshoot, which is why I'd prefer a Orton or Young or Grossman, maybe Bulger. But Young and Orton are young enough that if you take a shot on them you could have something for a long time. And look at it this way Kaepernick and Newton have not done anything in the NFL yet they are considered future Qb's, you know what you are getting with Young and he will come "free".
yet another shot taken at Miami....this is comical... http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/06/05/2251388/miami-heats-lebron-james-no-one.html
