Just keepin some perspective round here..

No offense, but I'd put up that donkey-beating smiley right now if smileys hadn't been reduced to 9 or so lol

God this offseason is dragging.

 

Beyond words it is dragging!

Finsjesse posted that Stat Monkey stuff and was quite certain about it until:

-4th qtr Qbr and completion percentages
-last 4 minutes of the game completion percentages
-game losing int's

His only rejoinder was "yeah well, Sanchez got lucky with the dropped int's!"

Err, no, they simply look like incompletions in the stat sheets.

We have beaten the Hennezilla horse to death by now, no ones' mind will be changed by more statistical rehashing from 2010, and a different offense, with younger running backs added this yr.

 

My only question is why DJ seems to be under the impression that Sanchez has been "embraced by most" around here.

I don't think Dol-Fans have ever had a high opinion of Mark Sanchez and it's probably topic 1 and 1a on topics most likely to produce a fierce debate between Jets fans and Dol-Fans.

Mark Sanchez has three things that Henne doesn't that continue to produce fan faith:

1. Been in the league only 2 years rather than Henne's 3 years. Certainly if he goes a 3rd year sucking, he'll feel more heat, like Henne.
2. Was thought highly enough in the Draft to go #5 overall and whether you like it or not that buys more credibility than being a late 2nd.
3. Has like a 4-2 record and 94 QB Rating in the playoffs. If he continues that way he can suck all he wants they'll still love him.

 

Both Henne and Sanchez suck.

And you can't dismiss the dropped INTs stat. Its an important stat. "Mistakes" should not be judged by the result, they should be judged by the decision. Mark Sanchez made many poor decisions that should have resulted in INTs. However, because of dumb luck, his poor decision did not result in INTs. And no, it doesn't "come out in the wash" with dropped passes by WRs. A dropped INT is overwhelmingly more important than a dropped pass by a WR.

I truly believe neither Sanchez, nor Henne are above-average QBs.

 

On the other hand I don't think that the argument that Mark Sanchez has had better players surrounding him in 2009 and 2010 than Chad Henne has had in Miami, is a very strong argument at all. I think if guys like Santonio Holmes and Braylon Edwards played for the Dolphins, the fanbase would be lynching them and running them out of town. Brandon Marshall is better than both. Jake Long is better than D'Brickashaw Ferguson. Miami's ground game and OL were right up there with the Jets in 2009.

And I disagree with the notion that Chad Henne did "slightly better" than Sanchez.

Sanchez still has support in the fanbase for the exact reason I laid out. I'll state them again:

1. Been in the league 2 years, not 3 years. If he sucks in his 3rd year, you'll see calls for his head.
2. Was a #5 overall pick, universally hailed as a sure thing by the heads at ESPN and NFL Network etc.
3. Winning regular season record will buy you lots of street cred. A 4-2 playoff record with 94 playoff QBR will buy you 3x more.

 

Not to mention that there is tremendously more attention and pressure on Sanchez in NY.

Either way, I think the fact that the argument is being made that Henne is better than Sanchez should say enough. Its like me making a case that Ronnie Brown is better than Laurence Maroney. Neither are good are desirable.

 

Yeah it does kind of say it all.

 

There's a thread with Joyner's article already 9 pages long I think.

 

Totally agree. Henne was a mid 2nd round QB, common sense says that he was viewed as a prospect who needed a significant amount of development before he could play well and his salary (550K) suggests as much OTOH Sanchez was the 5th overall pick, his draft status and his salary (9+ million) both suggest that he's expected to play well out of the gate.

I think the biggest difference between the Jets and Fins is coaching, especially on offense and ST. Schottenheimer does an excellent job of mixing up his play calls. They run power, stretch, counter, trap, iso, draw, toss and WC, and they do all of them effectively. Henning calls the same running plays over and over, ad nauseum. The Jets' run game attacks the middle and the outside, they have backs who can threaten the edge and punish defenses for over pursuing. We have 2 backs can't get to the edge, create yards on their own, or make plays in the open field. The Jet sweep was discontinued b/c of how slow Ricky was last year. Ronnie wasn't much faster, and his vision is turrible.

Passing wise, the Jets have guys with complimentary skill sets and thus they are able to attack defenses in more ways. They have 3 guys who can stretch the field (Holmes-Edwards-Keller) and a solid check down target in LT. Cotchery starts for a lot of teams, including ours IMO, and is a dependable target in the slot. Brad Smith isn't a good WR but he adds punch to the WC and is excellent on ST. Most importantly, the Jets have a running game that forces defenses into predictable (single high) coverages and creates tons of space for their receivers to work. Defenses have to respect Keller attacking the seam, Holmes has the speed to run by people, and Edwards can make plays on jump balls down the field. For a defense, avoiding the big play while trying not to get demolished in the run game are priorities 1 and 2. That makes the short-intermediate passing game much easier for Sanchez, and his running game produces SEVERAL opportunities to attack down field each week, not the 1 or 2 (if that) chances that Henne typically gets. 4-6 shots to Edwards/Holmes OR 1 chance to Brian Hartline? Hmmm, which would you prefer?

Our offense in 2010? No one was worried about our run game or toothless WC attack, no one was worried about our deep passing game or our non existent check down threats. Defenses were most concerned about our intermediate game, a clear sign that our dynamics on offense were all screwed up. Many teams were willing to play soft and wait for our offense to self destruct, before tightening the screws once we approached scoring range. W/o a run game or a credible threat at flanker/TE it was difficult to get Marshall any 1 on 1 matchups. W/o a deep threat it was tough to get Marshall any space in the short-intermediate areas. Our offense overall just sucked and when I think about it I wonder how we ever moved the ball at all. I'm cautiously optimistic that if we can fix the run game and improve our spacing we can have a top 11-15 type offense. Couple that w/ a top 7 defense and a ST that doesnt implode again, and we have a good shot at being in contention.

Coincidentally, Ireland drafted to fix the run game (Pouncey/Thomas), and add speed & spacing (Clay/Gates). Sparano hired a coordinator who's stated he wants to find ways to get Marshall loose, whereas Henning stated flatly that he doesn't cater his pass game to anyone, except maybe the opposing defense. Henne does better in spread looks, and in spots where he can get rid of the ball quickly, and again, the new OC is on record saying he wants to spread the field more and utilize the quick passing game. Instead of banging our head against a wall w/ power run after power run, we're installing a more versatile run game that features more zone plays. It seems like common sense is descending over our offense for a change. If we get it right, we'll be well on our way to catching up w/ where NY has been since 2009, which is both encouraging and infuriating at the same time.

 

Totally agree with you, as usual. Also on the Jets OL, add in Brandon Moore, maybe the most underrated guard in the league.

Who in their right mind would think if the Jets had Henning, Hartline, Marshall in 2010 and the Dolphins had Holmes, Edwards and Schottenheimer that Henne wouldn't have done much better? Well...

That's not even taking into account the Jets fine receiving TE, in Keller, a luxury that Henne has NEVER had in the NFL. Of course some would have you think that would not make any difference for Henne.

 

Yep.

Brandon Moore's no slouch either. Meanwhile we played how many OL vs Carolina in 2009? Grove was out, Smiley was out, Garner played 3 different positions, Thomas was out too. Same crap this year, 3 centers, 3 RTs, 2 RGs, 3 LGs, Jake was the only guy to play all 16 in one spot, and he was hurt half the year too. But hey, I guess none of that matters if your sole motive is to bash the QB.

Gotta admire NYs attention to detail. Everything from the diversity and timing of their play calls, to the execution of thier play fakes and dummy/hard snap counts. They are a well coached team accross the board and it shows on the tape. Not to mention they have A TON of talent. Hopefully Cromartie, Holmes, Edwards, Smith & co will be gone this year.

Ginn vs Edwards we lose. Cam vs. Cotchery we lose. Keller vs Fasano we lose (in the passing game). I'll take Bess and Hartline over Clowney and Smith, but as a group, gimme NYs bunch. In 2010 it wasn't all that close, IMO. The Jets had a WR corps, good mix of speed, size, vertical and possession guys. Guys who could punish 1 on 1 coverage and make big plays. We had all possession guys, only one playmaker, and we did a terrible job of using him.

Ireland neither. Brown and Williams are both fired. Cobbs? Fired. As is Henning. One big firing squad.

Won 7 of his first 10 starts, swept the Jets, outplayed Brady in a come from behind win. Completed 21 straight passes vs Jax. Last minute come behind wins vs NY, Tampa & NE. Not bad for a guy who sucks.

20 INTs will do that for ya. Good thing they don't include fumbles in passer rating, he had 10 of those (4 lost) as well. Lost fumbles by Chad Henne in 2009? Zero. For his career? 2. Both vs NY last year in the rain game. The game where Ronnie fumbled, Holmes dropped an easy TD, Sean dropped 5 picks. I think its safe to the ball was a little slick. Sanchez fumbled 3 times in the same game IIRC.

It's all good DJ. There will be many "I told ya so's" being dished out. Soon.

 

****...My...***! Not another Henne/Sanchez comparison thread. Are you trying to make us schizophrenic?

 

We can debate the hell out of this until the season starts, but at the end of the day there's two facts that favor Sanchez even if statistically Henne's better in certain categories.

1. He's made the playoffs twice to Henne's never having been there.
2. He's played pretty damn well for the most part once he's gotten there. Will we ever get to say the same of Henne?

Say what you want about Sanchez's QB rating and completion percentage, dropped INTs, etc. He's manned up when it's counted and he's knocked out Carson Palmer, Philip Rivers, Peyton Manning, and Tom Brady. Don't discount the man's abilities, even if he is a bit fruity. Just keeping some perspective.

 

What Sanchez has had is a much better Offensive Line in both pass and I suspect run blocking, the Jest running game has been consistently good and that has certainly made his life easier, unlike Henne's time in Miami.

 

Here is why Deej:

-no Qb had more passes tipped at the Los then Henne
-the throw away balls, iirc he led the nfl in balls tossed out of bounds
-lack of deep passing success
-negative Td to Int ratio
-train wrecks of attempts at a 2:00 offense

Blah blah blah, there are reasons why I'm fairly neutral on the Fish, and do not buy into statistical analysis as I posted a thread last yr about Henne's play in the 2nd Jest game, a win, where his QBR was 27% and statistically speaking he would have had a better QBR if merely threw the ball at his linemen's feet rather then attempting to complete passes.

Will say, give the man a effective running game then judge him, 11th in total carries, 31st in YPC, this is not a gunslinger Qb what was he supposed to do?

 

i dont know about schottenheimer as some of you guys claim he is a better OC, for sure better than henning, but from what i read at ganggreen during my time when we play the jets and afterwards, he is not much respected over there

 

The number of tipped passes at the los is something that does concern me about Henne, probably as much as any single thing. I'd guess he ranks pretty high in # of passes tipped at the line.

The throw aways are a good thing in a sense that rather than trying to force it into coverage or taking a sack which does not hurt your QB rating, he throws it away. If all his throw aways were sacks instead, his QB rating would be a lot better, and on the surface one may say he was a better QB because well heck, his rating was higher. But in the sense of which is better for the team, obviously it is the throw aways.