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Hyde: This is competition for Henne?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ckparrothead, Jul 30, 2011.

  1. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    no they didnt lie, they apparently just felt that there is no one out there worth the cost/compensation and since we needed a backup who would also sign for just backup money they decided to sign matt moore
     
  2. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, it depends, if one steps back and just looks at the personnel groupings, we have two distinct units, one that is more or less traditional, Bess Hartline Fasano etc, and one that is highly flexible, Gates, Clay, Bush, how they manage that situation will go a long way in answering your question.

    I have pointed out, but not banged the drum, that instead of rehashing the Dolphins 2010 season, people need to look at the Browns 2010 season on offense to get a feel for what may happen this yr.

    Daboll got production out of Hillis, Watson, Moore, and that was about it, the Browns were so shallow on talent that roles for Bess and Marshall just do not translate to our 2011 season.
     
  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    huh?, dramatic?, ive lost ya 79, you know what being overdramatic is, not putting a mammoth rebuild into proper context or perspective, and firing a staff after three years, firing a staff that posted a winning record and a division title in their three years while they were rebuilding one of the worst football teams in history..
     
  4. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    no, not you BK, so you expected no drop off after accomplishing a historic feat, while the rebuild had to take place?
     
  5. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I really just think......

    Miami knows what situation they are in regarding the QB position. In their minds....nothing this season was really a huge upgrade over Henne. I think they have their eyes on the 2012 draft, where they will be in prime position to take maybe not Luck, but either Barkley or Landry Jones....

    I tell you...the guy I would love to see them get.....is Brandon Weeden....
     
  6. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Marino was an illustration of what Padre was saying....the "cockiness" to throw deep. If you watch that video...the whole video talks about Marino's swagger....how he handled the huddle....other players. Thats what Henne is missing I think...
     
  7. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Hey Im with you DJ....
     
  8. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

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    'One of the worst teams in history'. Recordwise yes, but not hardly. Just one among many bad teams in the history of the league. This is an exaggeration with the purpose of relieving Tony Sparano of accountability for a bad 2010 season that ended with his team quitting on him and embarrassing everybody affiliated with the Miami Dolphins.
     
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  9. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

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    Everybody expected dropoff. We got that in 2009. Then we expected some progress. Instead we got more decline. And finally complete collapse. If the Fins would have finished 9-7 last season and not humiliated themselves nobody would even be having this discussion.
     
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  10. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    I'm not really sure about that. There's been quite a couple of successful quarterbacks without that "swagger" - guys who'd never been mistaken for natural leaders if they hadn't won a lot of football games and got that leader label attached to them by virtue of being a good quarterback. Players don't buy into personality; players buy into success. Marino could have gone into that huddle doing a little nursery rhmye or quote from Shakespeare; his team mates knew that he would get the job done and that's all that matters. Henne doesn't lack a swagger or an attitude; he lacks some fundamental QB skills. If he can improve those, he could be Robo-Henne all day long and his team mates wouldn't mind one bit.
     
  11. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    Look at Jay Cutler or Eli Manning. Hardly the pictures of bravado and machismo, but they throw TDs. That's what players respect.
     
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  12. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    A four year plan means championship contention in the fourth year. If DJ thinks we MAY make the playoffs then he's not buying a four year plan, he's buying a five year plan.

    And I don't think he has any clue how long it takes to rebuild a team, personally. I don't mean any offense there, I don't know that any of us really knows how long it takes to rebuild a team and I don't personally think there is any set amount of time. But the most commonly accepted amount of time, the one Bill Parcells HIMSELF laid out for the Dolphins, was a three year plan.
     
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  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    That's a good question. Objectively speaking, I don't think it will. I mean you have to look at this from the mile high view so that you don't lose the forest for the trees. Tony Sparano hired almost the entire offensive staff before Brian Daboll arrived. They fired some people last year, the QBs Coach, RBs Coach, TEs Coach and of course Dan Henning left as he had agreed he would well before the 2010 season started (Tony had begged him to stay on one more year). But who did they hire in all those peoples' places? They hired internally, Tony Sparano guys hired by him and schooled in this "one and done", "low football IQ" offense as you put it. The only external hire was RBs Coach Jeff Nixon from the Eagles.

    So Brian Daboll has to deal with almost an entire staff that are incumbents, were here in Miami before he arrived, and then he also has to deal with Sparano himself who is an offensive guy and once called plays in Dallas. He was never a true offensive coordinator, which I think too many people ignore. He was a run game coordinator and game day play caller, but he's never coordinated a passing attack. Tony has always stated that Dan Henning's offense here was a marriage of the offense Henning liked, and Tony's influences he brought from Dallas. I don't expect that to change. Brian Daboll doesn't exactly walk in with a lot of clout to start throwing his weight around. No other team in the league was about to hire him as a full OC, I would guess.

    Then you look at some of the offensive tendencies that Miami had under Henning versus what Henning himself has taught in offensive seminars, which we know courteous of alen1 who has notes on Henning's offense. There were GLARING differences. Henning preaches screens and quick game. Miami hardly used it. Henning has a stated directive not to use play-action in obvious passing situations. Miami did that several times. Henning laid out a formula for distribution of throws deep, intermediate and short. That formula called for about 17% throws deep (4 of 24 pass attempts, 20+ yards downfield). In Miami from 2008 to 2010 that was consistently halved, whereas in Carolina both Rodney Peete and Jake Delhomme threw deep almost exactly as much as in Henning's notes.

    To ME the glaring differences between what Dan Henning has always stated he wants to do, and what happened in Miami...point to Sparano and his conservatism. That's not certain, I've not been in those meetings, I have no clue. But that's what it points toward. Given that, given the fact that the entire staff are hand picked Sparano guys that were here prior to 2011, I don't really imagine that Brian Daboll is going to be able to seriously transfigure the mentality of the offense...and that's what is important. Changing the X's and O's is one thing, but changing the mentality requires a lot more work. It would have been easier with a QB change to a guy that came from a more aggressive system. If the Dolphins acquire Orton after all, bully for them. But if not, they've put themselves even further behind the 8-ball.
     
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  14. Abbi Normal

    Abbi Normal Banned

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    I think we're in the 8th year of our 4 year rebuilding plan and were still talking about a good "nucleus". hmmm

    CK

    As One of the few here who I actually feel has some realistic takes on things, I'm I just miss reading our organization?

    I mean ya defense is pretty good but WTF are we unwilling to get quality Offensive players who could be there down the road when we find or develop a real QB. QB I don't even want to go there...........

    I'm finding it so hard to fathom that teams are in the hunt for quality veterans for several years now and we are saving money and trying to figure out how to sign roll players..........

    sorry

    10 years of this crap and my fuse is getting shorter and shorter. Just like to see a GM that makes moves that make many of us see why these guys get big bucks.........

    guess I'm just jealous of those in here who are able to see the glass so full when I see it about to fall off the table.......

    Well FA isn't over and hell we're tied for first place............just hope that the offense catches up to the defense before we need a new defense.......sometimes I think we're more of a construction company than a football team........
     
  15. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    So 7-9 is a complete collapse? You say it would be so much better to be 9-7. It is a two game difference.
    Sorry to say but you look like a whiner in this thread. Along with many others.
    It's close to being just as frustrating to see the fans act this way as it is to lose football games.
     
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  16. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

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    The point I've always tried to make is that I would have no problem if we missed the playoffs last year but were trending UPWARDS. But the end of last season was a disaster. And with that we are in this year's camp with huge question marks at QB, RB, and interior offensive line. And what it seems isn't talked about much is the defense. People say 'well our defense is probably going to be elite.' Is that a given? Our defense did not take the ball away last season. No they will not be elite unless they figure out how to do that a whole lot more. Then of course there's the assumption that Tony Sparano was some kind of helpless victim to Dan Henning's horrid offensive playcalling and game planning. I just don't buy that and it's something you've addressed pretty thoroughly already. The best part is that using wins and losses as a bottom line for a regime after FOUR years would be a 'shallow' way to judge the coaching staff.
     
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  17. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, it looks as if the Orton trade is dead so Henne is "the guy" and I can live with that as I've said that our season hinges more on the running game then on Henne carrying the load again.

    And do agree, only Jest fans are allowed to be confident, which is just silly, but I've seen dire predictions that the D will regress, and of course ST will still suck, and Thomas is just to unknown to be positive about him..kinda sad really.
     
  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think the reality is this and it's fairly simple:

    They view the QB position to be a 'core position'...but that's it. They also view NT, RB, LT, CB and WR to be core positions. In other words, there's nothing 'special' about the QB position, it's just another position on the football field.

    IMO, this is admirable in its being the football equivalent of egalitarianism, but it's also very unwise.

    If you look at all their moves from 2008 to present day through that lens of an acceptance that the QB position is just one among many key positions, their moves make a lot more sense for them.
     
  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Did he say "complete collapse"? Those are your words, not his. He said we expected PROGRESS in year three, and instead got "more decline".
     
  20. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

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    What world do you live in where December 2010 wasn't a collapse? Can you take me there too?
     
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  21. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

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    Taking everything out of context makes it easier to just dismiss me as some doom and gloom whiner rather than actually discuss the valid points I and others have made.
     
  22. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I agree with you, especially on the highlighted part. Cam Wake and Paul Soliai had career years in order for the defense to be as good as it was, and even so because of the lack of turnovers I would say the defense ranked no higher than #12 or #13 in the NFL...barely upper half. They were good at stopping teams from gaining yards and first downs, but that's not a defense's only job. You have to prevent points from being scored, and you have to force turnovers.
     
  23. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    CK....

    Given what we have all discussed....

    Im of the opinion that the most likely scenario we see this season...is that Henne shows he can be a good...mid range QB. Not bad...Not great..Good. Lets assume for a second two scenarios....

    This regime is back. Is "good" enough? Would they make a play for one of the top three QB's in the draft? If so..which one at this point intrigues you the most.

    This regime is gone. If this is the case..I think they would def want to draft their own QB. Even if Henne has a good season.....
     
  24. steveincolorado

    steveincolorado Spook, Storme & Pebbles

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    IMO, I believe we're a better team today then when we won the division back in 2008.
     
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  25. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    The reports when Parcells hired Henning were that Henning was promised complete control of the offense. IMO the biggest problem with our offense has been the system. Without being inside I don't think anybody can say whether that was due to Henning or Sparano. My guess is that Henning was in charge of the offense based on how similar Miami's system was to Carolina's. We'll see this year if there is a change.
     
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  26. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Talent wise?

    Sure, not sure about the unit cohesion aspects of the 08 team, that squad's sum of it parts was better then the individual pieces.
     
  27. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

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    I agree except for at the QB position. That is a reason for optimism if Henne can step his game up. We'll have to all cross our fingers since the FO has yet to bring in any serious competition.
     
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  28. steveincolorado

    steveincolorado Spook, Storme & Pebbles

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    I'm saying overall this team is better, not pointing to certain positions.
     
  29. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    I'm sorry, I have no more optimism left. This teams Qb position is woeful.
     
  30. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    "Good" and "mid range" implies to me that he can be as effective as Kyle Orton was in Denver. I don't see that happening for Chad Henne. We'll see. I think Kyle Orton is the superior quarterback. He sees the field more quickly.

    If this regime stays on, the chances of them drafting a QB high next year are slim to none. I'm just being honest. FIRST off, I firmly believe they have to be picking #21 to #32 in order to stay on at all (i.e. they have to make the playoffs). If they don't do that then Sparano at the very least is gone, if not both Sparano and Ireland. Ireland may survive because of his relationship with Carl Peterson (remember, King Carl was the first person to hire him as a scout). So keep in mind the very nature of what we're pondering means we've missed out on the top QBs in the Draft.

    I want you to keep another thing in mind. The rookie wage scale has CHANGED things significantly. The financial risk component of drafting at the top end of the 1st round has been dramatically lessened. Cam Newton just got a 4 year $22 million contract. That's it! Yeah it may be fully guaranteed but who cares! Sam Bradford made $50 million in guarantees. With the financial risk component of picking a bad QB taken relatively out of the equation, a LOT of those teams that were squeamish in the past about taking a QB because "Oh, we have Ryan Fitzpatrick..." or "Oh, we don't KNOW that Chad Henne is a bust yet...", etc...totally different now. The game has changed. If this wage scale was in place back in 2008, Matt Ryan would be our quarterback today. I guarantee that. Absolutely guarantee it.

    What this means is that if you're picking #21 to #32...you don't even have a shot of getting the kind of quarterbacks you might have seen reach that low in the past. Keep in mind the last 10 QBs that went #21 to #32 were Tim Tebow, Brady Quinn, Aaron Rodgers, Jason Campbell, J.P. Losman, Rex Grossman, Patrick Ramsey, Drew Brees, Jim Druckenmiller and Tommy Maddox. As things stand, that was already a pretty THIN area to be drafting a QB. Now with the rookie wage scale in place, it'll be even thinner. With that area being so thin, do you really see THIS regime taking a chance on a QB, if they just reached the playoffs with Chad Henne? You know the answer.

    And in the mean time, trading up will be damn near IMPOSSIBLE to do. You can thank the rookie wage scale for that as well. Before you had a lot of incentive to trade down because the differences in salary were pretty massive up at the top. Now, they're gradual, and the salaries at the very tippy top are not in any way scary. If Miami is picking #21 to #32, you can kiss the idea of trading up into the top 10 goodbye. They'd have to trade Jake Long or someone of that caliber to do it.

    I share your passion for Brandon Weeden as a QB prospect. But he'll not suit up in an NFL game until he's 29 years old, and his shoulder is full of wear and tear from his pitching career. He left baseball because he couldn't pitch without pain anymore. Does that sound like a 1st rounder to you? When QBs generally peak by their 2nd or 3rd year we're talking about a guy with wear and tear on his shoulder not being in his prime until he's north of 30, and that's IF he even reaches any kind of prime at all. Most teams will remember Chris Weinke and say guys that start this old just don't make it, period. He can look like Andrew Luck out there and he still won't be a 1st round pick. You can pretend like "Yes but what if you're SURE that he's a good QB" but nobody is ever really SURE about anyone, not even Andrew Luck...and he's not on Luck's level.

    IF this regime stays on, the only premium caliber QB I could see them getting is indeed Weeden, but that's just because I know he'll not go in the 1st round.

    Otherwise, this regime and an elite QB prospect are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.
     
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  31. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I read no such reports.

    I did however hear Tony Sparano say specifically that the playbook was a marriage of what he used in Dallas and what Dan Henning brought with him.
     
  32. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    The report I recall was about how Henning initially didn't want to return to coaching. IIRC he had been out of coaching for a year or so. As part of convincing him to return, Parcells promised him full control of the offense.
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I recall the part about Henning being reluctant to come back, but I read no reports that Parcells dangled complete control of the offense in order to lure him to come back. Henning himself said many times that it was meeting and talking with Sparano that made him excited to come back. He said he didn't want to come back, and Parcells told him just do him a favor and talk to Sparano. By the end of the conversation, Henning said that Sparano got his juices flowing, got him all excited about coaching football again, and he became a Tony Sparano guy.

    Never read anything about Henning having complete control. However, I did hear and read several times Tony say that the playbook was a marriage of his Dallas playbook with Henning's playbook.
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    from a rebuild this size, By the 4th year, your team should have balance, youth, size, talent, be in good cap shape and ready to compete consistently for the foreseeable future.I dont look at specific numbers on wins and losses, there are too many variables involved that could either cloud or sway my judgement if I rely on just that.. I look at individual players that make up the team, I believe from where this staff started from, the balance, youth and talent throughout the roster is evident, and I like the individual parts, do we need to make something happen at the QB position, yes, and until I find that right guy, I will build the team around the position, which I think is happening..When I listen close to your vision, I see no regard for variables, the starting point, how depleted the roster was relative to now, the patience for proper player development, the room to make a few mistakes along the way, and we haven't even started the 4th year..But your ready to blow the whole thing up...last year.

    I want to give these individually talented parts, a proper time frame to play together..I don't think your allowing that in your vision.
     
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  35. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    I think you've got it nailed there. I keep reading a lot about "I don't want to trade for Orton, let's keep our picks together, so we can trade up for a QB in case we have another 7-9 season under Henne" - and I think that's an illusion. With the rookie wage scale, uptrade prices will reach the level they had before the rookie salaries exploded in the first place. And teams in the top spots - which are usually teams with quarterback woes that brought them there in the first place - will have little reason to trade out from there if that potential franchise guy commands as much money as a mediocre FA.
     
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  36. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

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    Why does bringing in a better coach mean you have to dump all of your talented players? It doesn't. Even after 2007, which according to you was supposed to be the worst team in the history of football, many players from that team were retained and were part of that division title you use to justify giving Sparano a super long leash. If a player underperforms they are liable to get cut. [See Channing Crowder] But Sparano is getting a free pass because there are some good young players on the team. Once again, at the end of year three with a shot at the playoffs his team was outperformed multiple times against bottom feeders and backups. Many players on this team had been playing together for two full seasons now. Three for some.

    The kind of timeline you're giving for a team needing to come together makes me think you're talking about an MLB organization developing prospects in the minors, bringing them up, and then watching them mature into the core of a team over team. That is not the NFL. Good players don't take THAT long to start performing at a high level. Of course when the coaching is poor it does take a long time for good players to realize their potential.
     
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  37. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I agree. The one exception I think though is the 2nd rounder. That's really the only pick in anyone's arsenal aside from next year's 1st that is going to get anyone anywhere in a trade up. I don't think the Dolphins are going to be able to trade up from #21 to the top 10 period, but that's not necessarily the difference between a QB you love and missing out. For instance, we have reports that the Dolphins were IN LOVE with Jake Locker. If that's the case, from #15 to #7 was the difference between getting your #1 QB in the Draft and not getting anyone at all. We also had reports they liked Christian Ponder and would have taken him. Well, if that's the case, #15 to #11 was the difference between getting a QB and not getting one. I think these smallish gaps can still be crossed in large part using that 2nd round pick, even after the wage scale. But, it'll have to be more than a 2nd from now on, and a 3rd isn't going to make much of a difference anymore.
     
  38. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    No go back and read his post...... He said "complete collapse".
    Not sure at all what you are looking at. Those weren't my words.
     
  39. Abbi Normal

    Abbi Normal Banned

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    Staying on topic

    Who'd a thunk Devlin would be competition for Henne..............

    several posters are not surprised

    Actually beginning to think we could come in first place ....................for the draft
     
  40. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    Yep back on topic..... let the whining commence
     

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