Brian Hartline

Hey even a broken clock is right twice a day

 

exactly.

 

IMO Gates worth will be determined not by how many plays he makes but how well he compliments Bess and Marshall. We need a deep threat to create room for our main guys to work underneath. Anything past that is a bonus for me.

 

Nothing on the field, really, except maybe some histrionics. If he ran a faster 40 time and did something worse than fleeing the scene of an accident with a parked car we'd be square.

 

Not trying to bash the guy. I just disagree w/ the notion that we're in any way set at his position. I have a differing opinion on what we need from the flanker position, my apologies if it came off as adamant criticism.

I don't want Hartline to catch a lot of balls b/c that means that teams are taking away Marshall. I want teams covering Hartline, or whoever the flanker is, while Marshall makes them pay. Hartline has not shown the ability to force defense to change their coverages. His numbers are fine, it's his impact on the game that I think needs improvement.

 

We want him to score more TDs and take better advantage of the opportunity Brandon provides by playing opposite him.
We want him to be a legitimate vertical threat that defenses fear rather than a sneaky guy who occasionally beats his man using double moves etc.

But mostly, we want him to be a guy who allows Marshall, Bess, our TEs, and the ground game play to it's max ability b/c a group of possession style receivers and TEs do no favors for an offense.

Hartline makes everyone else easier to defend or bottle up as soon as the ball's caught b/c he doesn't scare anyone.

 

adding speed still wont improve his ability to catch down field, track the ball better, or win jump balls.

As a vertical threat, he's lacking a lot more than just speed.

 

Bingo. I could care less about Hartline having 1000 yards.

I don't want that kind of distribution b/c it would mean Marshall, Bess, Clay, Bush, and Thomas are having less opportunities to make plays. That should be close to 2500-3000 yards right there without including Fasano and the other WRs/RBs. It's a no brainer as to what would compliment that group the best, and it's NOT a possession receiver.


It makes MUCH more sense to have a guy who catches 700 yards and 5-8 TDs (who can LEGITIMATELY stretch the field and open up better opportunities for everyone else) than it is to have Hartline catch 1000 yards, 3 TDs, and everyone else's production suffers b/c of it.

People need to understand that MARSHALL is our playmaker, not Hartline..... and as such, our #2 WR should be about "who makes Brandon better" rather than "how many yards our #2 gets". If our #2 can pick up 1000 yards while making everyone better, then of course that would be acceptable.


There's plenty of talent to this group to where Hartline should NOT be looked at as the savior or integral component; however, he is a guy who is keeping this talent from reaching it's full potential.

 

make judgement on what? Much of the 3 year curve is learning related. That's not his problem.
His problem is he's not a true vertical threat and will never be b/c he lacks the natural ability to be so.
His problem is he's not a scorer and hasn't displayed the ability to be such.

His problem: downfield-- he shows poor tracking ability; shows little natural ability to make plays while the ball is in the air; is not physical; not a great leaper; doesn't attack the ball. Basically, he's shown nothing to inspire confidence to throw a ball up to him if he only has a step on a defender.

He doesn't have great speed to keep defenders from recovering if a throw is slightly off mark.
he doesn't have great speed to run under passes to where they're now caught rather than grazing off his outstretched fingers (like the Jets game). After all, it's a game of inches.
He lacks the speed and natural playmaking ability that keep defenses a little more honest, which in turn would benefit the ground game and give our other guys more space to make plays.


Anyone who disagrees with this only has to rewatch our games and pay attention to Marshall's effect on Fasano's performance. We need a #2 who returns the favor to Brandon. Things need to be more symbiotically comprised. Instead of thinking of our receivers in terms of individual performance, they need to be thought of as ONE UNIT WORKING TOGETHER. As one unit, they're sorely lacking someone who's a legit threat to help open things up.

We already have 2 premium, reliable receivers capable of moving the chains in Marshall & Bess (with one of the best receiving backs in the league). 3rd down conversion is the LEAST of our worries. Reliable is done. Hartline is overkill in the reliable department.

The department that's lacking is the speed & playmaking department on the perimeter (at least until Gates develops). This is the department that will improve us on 1st & 2nd down.

 

the biggest misconception on this board..That some of us, including GM, are just optimist's..

 

I look at it this way:
1st down IMO should be about running effectively and the potential for big plays. (A true vertical threat would fit better than Hartline)
2nd down: if we're running well on 1st down, 2nd down should be about running or the potential for a big play. (again, a true vertical threat is a better fit)
3rd down: we have Bess & Marshall acting as one of the premier converting duos in the NFL. (Hartline is an afterthought).


He's a good receiver, but I don't see a need for him to where he becomes more important than a guy who can truly stretch the field and compliment the offense better.

 

So, you're judgement on how well Brian Hartline is as a player, are the statistics that Brandon Marshall and Davone Bess achieve?

You're basically saying that there is nothing Brian Hartline can do statistically as a player that would make you change your opinion on what a number 2 WR should be.

I will tell you this...If Brian Hartline puts up over 1,000 yards with 5-7 TD's, you will be the only Miami Dolphin fan clamoring for him to be replaced. ONLY one.

The Miami Dolphins have only had 14 WR's put up 1K yard in a season...IN THEIR HISTORY. And now, we're going to say that if he does it it still won't change your view?

Your view of Brian Hartline is already flawed. It's because you believe he's an inferior player to all three of those guys. You believe his skillset to be ordinary, or rather, similar to the others. What you're failing to realize is he might just be a better player than those guys.

I can assure you that Kevin Walters is not the reason Andre Johnson is the player he is. He's the player he is because his QB allows him opportunities to make plays even in the face of difficult matchups. It's not because Kevin Walters frees him up.

This faulty logic of you need a speed guy to help Brandon Marshall, or speed guy, a possession guy and a quick slot receiver is so damned bogus. The Eagles have 387249837298372 speed WRs on their team. The New England Patriots have 3223798374032972 possession WR's on their team. It's about the offense and getting guys who have the ability to make plays. In Hartline's short time here, all he's shown is his ability to make plays.

Unbelievable. There are 23897432948230942709 other areas on this team that could use an upgrade, other than Brian Hartline or WR.

Not to mention, why do we need a deep threat to help Marshall when he's shown that ability in the past and from all indications looks capable this year?

 

Yes, he would make an awful rebounder. Fortunately we have Brandon Marshall, who would fulfill the need for someone to catch jump balls (although I'm not sure throwing up jump balls is ideal?)

Yes, he doesn't have straight line speed. Fortunately, that doesn't really matter. His ability to get off press coverage, or to run a route efficiently is more conducive to creating separation.

Who filled this role when Marshall was producing in Denver????

This might be the first time I've ever heard an argument for a player who isn't reliable. I would hope everyone who goes on that field is reliable.

 

How many yards did he average on the ball he coughed up to the Steelers. lol.

How many big plays did he create? How many critical passes did he drop?

How many TD or YAC opportunities did Marshall miss out on b/c defenses weren't concerned with Hartline?


One of the reasons Marshall had half the YAC of everyone else is thanks to Hartline not preventing defenses from draping coverage all over Brandon. I've seen Hartline run a post route and the safety on his side was still initially frozen by Marshall. That tells me that Hartline is doing Brandon NO favors.


Who's success is more important to you? One of the elite receivers of the league?..... or a 4th round guy who wouldn't start for half the league? You're missing the bigger picture here.

 

No, I'm saying Marshall & Bess's production are more important than Hartline's b/c they're greater contributors......... so I'm not going to prioritize Hartline's play at all, especially if his presence on the field impairs Marshall and Bess's opportunity to make plays.

 

10 plays over 20 yards. On only 73 targets. 4 drops (although I couldn't find the stats on "critical drops")

This argument falls flat on its face, because Marshall put up big numbers in Denver, with Jabbar Gaffney as his #2 WR.

 

Let's delve into that then. Let's take a look at all the "#2" WR's that you said were better than Hartline, or he'd struggle beating. Let's compare "big plays".

In 2009, Brian Hartline played 16 G, only starting 2. He had 7 catches of 20+ yards and 2 catches of 40+ yards (so 9 big plays in 09)
In 2010, Brian Hartline played in 12 G, starting all 12. He had 10 20+ yards catches and 1 catch of 40+ yards; He also had 1 rush for 20+ yards (so 12 plays of 20+ yards in 2010)

Kevin Walter of Houston:

2010: 16 G, 16 GS, 8 20+ yd REC, 0 40+ yd REC (only 8 big plays in 2010)
2009: 14 G, 14 GS, 7 20+ yd REC, 1 40+ yd REC (only 8 big plays in 2010)

So in less games in 2010, Hartline was a bigger play receiver. In 2009, as a starter in only 2 gams AND a ROOKIE WR he had more big plays. Plus, let's not discount how grossly different these teams are in the passing game, where Houston lights it up!

Jacoby Jones - OH WAIT HE'S REALLY FAST!!!

2010: 15 G, 6 20+ yd REC, 1 40+ yd REC (7 big plays in 2010)
2009: 14 G, 7 20+ yd REC, 3 40+ yd REC (10 big plays in 2009)

Again, doesn't match the BIG PLAYS of Brian Hartline, even as a Rookie WR in a much worse passing offense.

Malcolm Floyd has more big plays than Brian Hartline, but look who's getting him the ball, the offense their running, and the attempts he's receiving. Also, look at this first 5 years! Then look at Hartline's. It isn't even close.

Louis Murphy:
2010: 14 G, 9 GS, 10 20+ yd REC, 2 20+ yd REC, 1 20+ yd RUSH, 1 40+ yd RUSH (14 big plays)
2009: 16 G, 9 GS, 6 20+ yd REC, 2 20+ yd REC (8 big plays)

So in 2 less games in 2010, Hartline has 2 less big plays. As rookies, Hartline made one more big play than Louis Murphy. So, how is he no better than Murphy? Again, because he's not as fast? Production is the same..

Jacoby Ford: A guy who you act that Hartline isn't even worth of holding his jock
2010 (his Rookie year): 16 G, 9 GS, 8 20+ REC, 3 40+ REC, 2 20+ RUSH, 1 40+ RUSH (14 big plays)

So in comparing their rookie years, in which Hartline had 7!!! less starts, he only had 2 less big plays. Hmmm....trust the trend keeps going that Hartline is so bad here.

Nate Burleson: Here's a hint...Brian Hartline has more big plays, but let's check out the stats!
2010: 14 G, 14 GS, 8 20+ REC, 1 40+ REC, 2 20+ RUSH (11 big plays)
2009: 13 G, 12 GS, 10 20+ REC, 1 40+ REC (11 big plays)

So, in 2 less games in 2010 Brian Hartline has more big plays than Burleson. As a rookie in which he had 10!! less starts, he had only 2 less big plays (1 more 40+ too)

Nate Washington:
2010: 16 G, 16 GS, 11 20+ REC, 3 40+ REC (14 big plays)
2009: 16 G, 16 GS, 6 20+ REC (6 big plays)

As a ROOKIE, Brian Hartline outperformed a guy with his contract. Then with 4 less games, he only had 2 less big plays. Here's the kicker...That was Nate Washington's second best year in terms of big play production! So, it's one of his best seasons. It was in terms of TOTAL YARDS and TD's. Yet, Hartline still extrapolated over a 16 game schedule was outperforming the guy with that contract!

Anthony Armstrong had an amazing year last year. Easily outperformed Hartline and anyone else on this list. Yet, the Redskins still felt the need to go out and sign Stallworth (another fast guy), Stokley, & trade for Gaffney?

Brian Hartline wouldn't have started on the 2010 Jets. You are right about that. However, that's because they're much more enamored with crappy, useless statistics the same way you are. Why is that NO ONE is going after Braylon Edwards? Plaxico Burress just got out of jail and he got a job. I think Rae Carruth might have a better shot at signing with someone than Braylon Edwards does.

Mohamed Massoquoi:
2010: 15 G, 15 GS, 7 20+ REC, 1 40+ REC (8 big plays)
2009: 16 G, 11 GS, 11 20+ REC, 2 40+ REC (13 big plays)

Hartline crushed in 2010 with less plays, but Mohammed had a better rookie season that saw him start 9 more games. So again, just average it out what the amount of touches he receives as a starter and it's not a stretch to assume he couldn't put up the same numbers.

Brian Robiskie: I'll stop here because it isn't even close. Brian Hartline dominates him in absolutely every statistical category imaginable.

Lee Evans:
2010: 13 G, 13 GS, 9 20+ REC, 3 40+ REC (12 big plays)
2009: 16 G, 16 GS, 10 20+ REC, 1 40+ REC (11 big plays)

He had as many big plays as Hartline in one more GS in 2010. in 2009, when Hartline was a ROOKIE, he averaged out to more big plays and still finished with only 2 less in 14!! less GS.

Broncos (Demaryius Thomas): Not even close so it isn't even worth doing it. Hartline crushed him. Although Thomas played in only 10 games. He still had 5 less big plays. So even averaged out, Hartline again makes more big plays.

Jordan Shipley (Bengals): He had as many big plays as Hartline (9) in his rookie season. He did have 2 more GS than Hartline also.

Again, this proves from production that Brian Hartline is as good or better than most of the options you said he isn't better than. ACTUAL PRODUCTION indicates he's better than your warped view.

And please don't give me this crap about someone scoring more TD's. You've used the crutch all spring long about how Chad Henne's TD numbers are so far down because opportunities are taken away from him with playcalling and Wildcat. That same logic MUST be applied here. I'm prepping myself because you've done it before and it's absolutely senseless to use to help a player you have bias for/against.

No matter how you shape it up, he's a good player and better than most of the players you consider better than him. You view the #2 WR as a guy that is supposed to make big plays and help take coverage off the #1. He makes big plays on the same consistent basis as most and in most cases more than others.

The #1 WR is always going to receive the respect and coverage. Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Wes Welker, Roddy White, Miles Austin, Steve Smith (Car), etc. etc. have all had very great seasons even with most of the coverage shaded their way.

 

I'd love to see his big play average in a percentage of touches. I mean he's been such a great draft as a #4 WR. If he was in Indianapolis, all you'd hear about his how he's come out of nowhere and it was another great draft pick by the Colts, etc. Yet, here, all we want is some guy that can run a 4.3 because we just think that football works in this linear way that you have a guy that runs fast and on the opposite side a guy that catches the ball really well. Then you line a guy up in the slot that can find ways to get short yards, quick plays, 1st downs. It's so rudimentary and not how football is played it's pathetic.

 

It seems to me that everyone who gets the ball should try to make plays. Like it or not, we were more productive/efficient throwing to Hartline last year (9.0 ypa) than we were throwing to Marshall (7.7 ypa). Hartline can and does get open deep -- the problem is that Henne was not very good on the deep throws. The Haden interception in the Cleveland game is a great example of a play in which Hartline was wide open (4-5 yards) deep and Henne badly underthrow him and got the ball intercepted. You also have to take into account the pass interfence and defensive holding penalties that Hartline has a knack for getting (against the other team). I want Hartline to try to get open on every play and to get as many yards as possible when the ball comes to him. I'm not that interested in having a no. 2 receiver whose role is to just pad Brandon Marshall's stats.

 

Great write up you did earlier man, hellvuva post. I don't agree but I respect the effort.

I think you're dumbing down TPs arguement, and mine as well. We never said 4.3 we said "big play threat" or "stretch the field". Larry Fitz runs a 4.6 and he a tremendous weapon down the field. A WR who can take a short pass and create a big play with his YAC ability could also get the job done. The key is to have a guy who worries the defense enough to where they at least have to play Marshall honestly.

We've been screaming about the lack of spacing, speed and play making in this offense since the middle of the 2010 season. We talked about not having a threat in the flats for Henne to check down to. We talked about not having a seam threat to keep safeties honest. We talked about a deep threat to create space for Marshall and Bess. Most of the feedback we got was "Henne sucks we need another QB" and not much has changed between then and now.

Ireland talked about it ad nauseum during the offseason. Ross called for more dynamism on offense. Enter Thomas, Gates, Clay and Bush. Gates being the big play - stretch the field guy. Clay is the pass catching TE-H-Back type who can get behind the LBs. Bush is a major upgrade as a check down target, no LB in our division can handle him. I wont go into Henning b/c most of us agree on his performance last year. I'll just say I'm interested to see what Daboll chooses to do w/ what he's been given.

You can call our assertions rudimentary and pathetic but Jeff Ireland went out and acquired guys who could add all of things TP, I and others have been clamoring for since October of last year. Meanwhile, the Henne bashers still don't have a (new) shoulder to cry on. Not gloating at all but the facts speak for themselves dude. If you want to add our front office to the list of people who are pathetic and rudimentary go for it but if you look closely they did almost exactly what we asked of them.

 

Well said man.

 

Are you interested in paying Marshall 50 million so that he can serve as a decoy while Hartline pads his stats on the other side?

 

GMJohnson and ToddPhins, I didnt mean to call the your opinions rudimentary and pathetic. I meant to say the thought that football can be so simple as having those things simple and rudimentary. Sorry for the confusion.

 

They both kept their jobs, I'd say it was a toss up.

I wish we could frame the discussion in terms of what's best for the team instead of pitting players against one another though.

 

I don't think it's a stir the pot question. It depends on how you measure success. On the broadest scape, we didn't win the Super Bowl, didn't make the playoffs, have a winning season, etc. So nobody would really say their season was a success.

Because my belief is that a WR is only as good as the QB throwing them the ball, unless you're blessed to have an elite player, it's really a neither was better. In some cases Hartline hurt Henne. In others, Henne hurt Hartline. Conversely, they helped each other the same way.

If you're just judging by broad, basic statistics, you'd have to say Brian Hartline.

IMO, neither player's season was more successful than the other's. However, I have a stronger sense of excitement and less doubt that Brian Hartline will wind up being the more productive player for this franchise for years to come.

 

TOO LATE!!! You hurt my feelings .








































Seriously though, it's all good man. My words can be a bit colorful sometimes as well so I'll never take offense when it happens to me. We're all men here, well most of us .

 

Who is Cam?

 

It wasn't even close, dude.