Ireland thread because we are desperate

I definitely disagree with you there. Winning a free agent does not automatically mean you overpaid.

However, I'm not going to allow you to just straw-man me. I know what I said, and I said nothing about Ireland overpaying for anyone named Wake or Bess.

 

What evidence do you have?

We have Parcells words. We Have Irelands words.

Not too mention any player Ireland brought in had to meet Parcells blueprint, like Henne. A blueprint he is obviously not using since Parcells is gone.

You're basically just making things up.

 

My point was he found us two quality players and paid little to nothing for them. W/Wake the $ was insanely cheap. He's done well acquiring quality players while paying good value. Look at the deal we just gave Soliai as well. That's how you win in free agency.

 

Those well versed in pollstering would probably have a field day with the way that poll was engineered. Just sayin.

 

He finally made the QB position a priority and has made himself available to the media. Consider this Ireland "basher" placated. For now.

 

I believe he's controlled the draft for two seasons now, for me nothing's changed, his evaluation for me is midseason, by then we will know how good or bad last years class is, and how this years class flashes..I heard and read enough good things about his eye and work ethic, so I wanted to give him a fair chance to find out if the dudes eye is special..

He didn't take the players I would of, but we need to see if he's right in his evals without Parcells being in charge of Ross's checkbook.

"Ireland does have a good reputation among his fellow talent evaluators. Charley Casserly of CBS, who had long GM stints with Washington and Houston, and longtime Cowboys Player Personnel Director Gil Brandt both have said he’s in the upper echelon of the profession. In another year or two we’ll know for sure. But what do you think now?"

I do understand that both analysts opinion from that quote aren't the best sources, but their formers gms and probably connected on some levels.

 

OMFG... Google it, dude. There's about a hundred different sites you can learn this from. Look it up, or believe whatever you want to believe. I'm tired of arguing about this.

 

No, no, no. You have it all wrong. Let me educate you, and set you straight. It's very important that I do this. Wake and Bess were acquired in 2008, through the magic of Bill Parcells.. and ONLY BILL PARCELLS!!! Not Jeff Ireland, who, at that time, was a mindless, silent servant to Parcells with absolutely, positively, not one iota of influence over the draft or free agency whatsoever until Bill Parcells left the building. THEN... and ONLY THEN did the magic ink on Ireland's one and only contract in Miami reveal his secret power over personnel decisions. Glad we got that straitened out!

Boy, you sure are lucky I'm here to show you how wrong you are! You may now fist pump this post.

 

Ah but Slick, that is not good enough.

For context, even Wanny developed OGun, you have to do both developing and drafting to be competitive in the AFCE.

 

So you have no evidence. Got it.

 

Stop being emotional for a minute.

Parcells quite a few times overrode Ireland and drafted another player, like White for example. That's known. Its also known that Parcells has a blueprint for every position and that it is fairly obvious choices were made based on that blueprint, like Henne or Long or Turner or Merling, etc.

So, I ask you, when your boss is Parcells, he gave you the position of GM, he has a time tested blueprint and the ability to overwrite you....do you follow his blueprint or not? Be honest and rational. Now, what if it turns out, the blueprint doesn't work in the NFL anymore, is following the blueprint your boss expects you to follow your fault? Of course not. It doesn't mean Ireland did nothing. It just means his hands were tied. The proof of that is the dramatically different players he drafted since Parcells is gone. Players who do not fit the mold of a Parcells player at their position. Oh and that Ireland has also admitted that's how it was.

I get it, you want to hate Ireland because your taking decades of the Dolphins not winning the SB out on a guy who comes across as an *******, because.....well.....just because. It doesn't mean your assumptions to how the FO worked is correct.

 

Please do not make your posts personal.Attack the post NOT the poster.

 

I agree with you, but to call somebody Lucky is going too far.

 

After reading this............uhhhhh........debate?..........The biggest point, IMHO, of who was REALLY in charge, whether on paper or for REAL, is how much difference the process and picks are since Parcell left. It is no where NEAR the same anymore. This tells ME..........Ireland was NOT the man his contract said he was. This MIGHT be part of, or MOST of, the reason he was not fired when Sparano was. Ross realized what had been going on and he was giving Irish a REAL chance to show what he could do.

Ireland was basically given a new start when Parcell's left, like the whole TEAM was given when Philbin was hired. So it COULD be argued..........we DID get a new GM.

 

Dont you think its a little self serving for Ireland to say he killed it and what is worse some fans repeating it as a matter of fact when we dont know how any of the draftees will work out .

As Padre says we are all enthused after the draft but that wears off as said players are cut or disappoint.

 

I'm late joining in, but I said the exact same thing prior to the draft about whether Ireland would take Tanny or not...it's a win-win for him...lets face it, his job is on a 3 yr lease like any other GM...the only thing different about Ireland situation is that it started in 2007, then restarted in 2011 and again this year because of changing regimes...it's pretty simple. Ross has Peterson tickling his ears and Peterson is an old-time GM, where the GM ran the whole show. That's not always the case now, depending on who you get for a coach, but that's what he's whispered into Ross's ears so Ireland is an old-time GM and will get the time to prove himself unfit starting with this year. Drafting Tanny just cemented that process for this organization and Irish.

 

Oh, I see... This is classic...for months those supporting Irish have used the argument that he didn't have total control on personnel decisions and that Quitcells over-rode many of those decisions...but when that argument was being used the Irish haters were saying 'No way, Ireland has had 4 yrs to build this team and he hasn't gotten the job done"....so now, when you need some argument against Irish because it appears maybe he's not the idiot some seemed to think, you backtrack and turn the same argument around and now don't give him ANY credit for ANY move when Quitcells was here....

Classic...So what you are saying is that you think that Ireland should be absolved of all personnel moves while Quitcells was here...ok, I'll buy that...hehehe

 

He said, based on his board, he killed it...fine... We all know, and even he knows that we have to wait and see how these guys develop before we give him Ozzie Newsome status as a GM... Anyone who really believes he 'killed it' at this point shouldn't be watching the draft...Like you said, let's see some football before we either hang him in effigy or raise him onto our shoulders...

 

CT.. don't forget the small proviso before the phrase "We killed it." He qualified that with "If our board was right!" Now that is a double edged sword. If the players pan out, then his board was right. If they don't, the evaluations were wrong - which opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.

Also... in cautioning us about attacking the post and not the poster - some of the arguments which have been presented on this thread are so deeply intertwined with the manner of the poster's thinking and the depth to which some basic assumptions endemic to the argument on some subjects (ahem... Ireland) are held that to deal with the post, some of that poster's thinking and assumptions must be examined - and also challenged. Most of us do not like that. Nobody is calling someone a "no good, low down, dirty mother stabber" or something to that effect. There has been some rather vigorous riposting, but all in all, it has resulted in not much more than a rather creative, though somewhat condescending, attempt at sarcasm.

All in all, somewhat mild repartee compared to some of the brawls you and I have seen. But it could degenerate quickly - so thanks for the caution.

 

I said that's how you win free agency. Wasn't talking about the draft.

 

It's like a little kid swearing to you that the Easter Bunny is really real.

We get it, you have an emotional bias w/the situation. Enjoy that.

 

The same can be said about your argument as well. You presented no more fact than he did and share the same emotional bias on the opposite end. We all have an opinion which when in an animated discussion will show as emotional bias. It's inherent in anything you feel strongly about.

 

Have to have both, the draft provides cheap talent that is locked up for 4-5 yrs.

 

I was being sarcastic. I thought that was pretty obvious.

 

Jeff Ireland has only had one contract in Miami. It was extended in 2011, but it is the same contract he signed on Jan 2, 2008. It is well known to everyone who reads things and pays attention that Jeff Ireland, officially according to his contract, has final say over all personnel decisions. It is... famously... one of the reasons Fisher would not come here. In fact, 'one who has final say over personnel decisions' is the absolute definition of an NFL GM. Some GMs share that responsibility with the head coach. However, if anyone else has final say over personnel decisions, the 'GM' is actually a Vice-President of Football Operations. You can't hire a guy to cut the grass on the practice field and then give him the title of 'NFL General Manager.' It does not work that way. There are guidelines, and rules for this sort of thing.

Now, understanding that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Ireland

http://dolphinsindepth.blogspot.com/2007/12/tuna-helper-on-menu-for-afternoon.html

http://www.dolphinstalk.com/2012/01/details-on-jeff-ireland.html


NOW... I've now done the legwork for you. It really didn't take that long. There is a lot more out there, and I encourage you to look it up if you still have doubts. Or better yet... you have your links... I've given my proof... now, the onus is on YOU.

If you can prove it, I will fully admit that I was mistaken, and Jeff Ireland should get absolutely no credit or blame for any personnel decision from 2008-2011.

 

What was that earlier about attacking the post, and not the poster?

 

And yet, that's not what happened, by Ireland's & Parcells' own words. The contract is one thing, what actually happens is another. EVERYONE knew Parcells was going to do as he pleased regardless of a contract, we also know if he wasn't going to pick the actual player, then Jeff Ireland had to follow Parcells blueprint for a player. This has all been confirmed over and over and over.

Then, we have the drafts and off seasons Ireland had autonomy for real and the type of players brought in are dramatically different than when Parcells was here. So...you can pretend the evidence you posted proves your point and not mine or you can just be rational and admit that you cannot point to a certain player picked while Parcells was here and 100% guarantee that was an Ireland decision. Seriously, have you ever had a boss?

 

There is no question that Ireland has total control over personnel since Parcells left. And obviously his contract would have said as much even before since it was used to get him out of Dallas. But everybody knows that Parcells had final say while he was here. Ireland admitted that Parcells took people off his board. Ireland admitted that in one of his pre-draft interviews. And Parcells admitted that he made the call on certain picks. For example in his draft special, he admitted that White was his mistake. The only areas that Ireland had true final say over was the UDFAs. Even the big trades and FAs he had to get permission from Parcells for (Both Parcells and Ireland admitted that Parcells only allowed the Marshall trade if Ireland went out and replaced a 2nd round pick). I would not give Ireland credit for Long since Parcells was clearly in control of that one and in fact, the reports were that Ireland wanted Ryan. (I personally prefer Long to Ryan). Ireland clearly gets credit for the UDFAs brought in over the whole tenure. And clearly the Marshall trade was Ireland's call. Other than that the only draft picks that we know Ireland had final say on was the last two years. Frankly, I find the whole "his title was GM so he must have final say" argument to be simplistic and so obviously inaccurate.

 

You guys who keep apologizing for Ireland just kill me. You ask others for 'proof', yet you don't give any yourself. You cherry-pick personnel decisions, based upon nothing but speculation, to determine what good personnel decisions Ireland 'gets credit' for (see: Wake, Bess, insert new guy with potential here, etc), and what bad personnel decisions were the fault of Bill Parcells (see: Wilford, Gibril Wilson, Henne, Pat White, etc). Do you have video of Parcells making these bad decisions? Confirmed witnesses? Sworn affidavits? Parcells DNA swabbed from Pat White?

Every bit of this is speculation... that is, except for this fact:

'Ireland's contract, officially, says he has final say' + 'Ireland has only ever had one contract as Miami GM' = 'He has always, officially, had final say'.

Period.

You can speculate all you want, just like you accuse others of doing. Good decision = Ireland. Bad decision = Parcells. Whatever, man... I'm guessing that you're going to just think whatever you want. However, while everyone knows that Bill Parcells, actually, did have ultimate final say over these decisions, Ireland most certainly DID have a great deal of influence in all personnel matters. We can, therefore, assume that there were at least a few players that were signed or drafted by Jeff Ireland, personally. Understanding that, there is no way you, or anyone else, can ever possibly confirm, 100%, which player was 'Ireland's guy', and which was 'Parcell's guy'. No how. No way.

So, pardon me, but, I'll stick to the facts.

Like the fact of the continuing trend of piss-poor 2nd round picks while Ireland has been GM... both PRE-and-POST Tuna. Hopefully Ireland finally got lucky, and Johnathan Martin bucks that trend. I think Martin was a great pick. However, I thought Koa Misi was a great pick, too. So far, I was wrong, and... boy, was the guy who made that decision wrong. I wonder who that 'mystery decision maker' could have been. It was, so far, a bad decision, so... I'm sure it was Bill Parcells.

Yes. I also am a boss. What could that possibly have to do with what we're talking about?

 

How is Parcells saying "White was my fault" not proof? How is Parcells saying that he only allowed the Marshall trade with conditions not proof? How is Ireland saying that Parcells took players off his board not proof? Those are all proof that Parcells had final say.

 

I also think it's simplistic to assume that every decision was Parcells', and to completely absolve Ireland of any responsibility whatsoever. So, no... my argument isn't inaccurate at all. It's dead-on accurate, unbiased, and well-formed.

I have links. I win.

 

You're woefully missing my point.

EDIT: My point is... everyone is responsible since day one. Everyone.

 

My point is that we don't know which players Ireland preferred or how he would have drafted if he had final say prior to the last two offseasons. Saying "everyone is responsible" is simplistic and pointless as a basis for evaluating whether Ireland will do a good job of picking players going forward. That is the goal right? It's not about pointing fingers.

 

Wow.

FTR, I've never given Ireland credit for the good pick ups while Parcells was here. Secondly, having a contract is proof there's a contract not proof X or Y happened. You're still completely ignoring anything anyone is saying to you, because....a piece of paper exists. Its silly.

If you want to believe that Ireland is horrible, by all means do it. I just don't understand what evidence you have that he is and believe it so strongly that you're willing to argue about it. Even in the "proof" you provided it proves Parcells did what he wanted. Its bizarre, that your hatred of Ireland is sooooooooooooooooo important to you, that you refuse to give it up in spite of the evidence.

 

Agreed.

Saying an NFL GM should share responsibility in personnel decisions is in absolutely no way simplistic, or pointless. To do otherwise is completely ludicrous. It's the definition of the freaking job. Also, to not allow a GM's previous success or failure at his assigned job to speculate about the possibility of his future success or failure is equally ludicrous.

Not in my opinion. It is most certainly about pointing fingers. It happens every day. That's how you come up with solutions. By holding everyone responsible, and not absolving any particular involved party as if they weren't even there. That, to me, is downright stupid... and just begging to get the same results you always have been getting.

 

But pointing fingers only makes sense if you know what they did. That's what your not getting. You're pointing at half the facts and using it to lay all the blame. Ross would have the ability to speak with the staff and know exactly what players Ireland was pushing for or against and why. You don't have that ability so you're looking at the title and blaming Ireland for everything when we know for a fact that Ireland did not have final say. That's not how you come up with solutions. That's just blaming for the sake of blaming. Nobody is apologizing for Ireland. I have certainly criticized him and blamed for many things. But I blame him for things I know he did, not just everything b/c he had a title in name only.

 

It's not. I assess the situation based on facts and not who I want to root for. I feel strongly about being unbiased.

 

I don't disagree. However we were just talking about one at the time.