Chuck Pagano Comments, Plus Media Comments On Vontae Trade

So on that basis with worst secondary, worst WRs, poor OL in the NFL i guess then we surely have the worst team in the NFL?

 

Pretty close

 

Your wired different I guess, to me every man who gets the job, needs a fair chance, a clean platform to build the team for which they were hired to build..That being said, we can critique the coach once we know his decisions have failed in developing the team. Right now were all on gut, I mean whatta you gonna do, be more critical of Philbin because of some other phonies that said they cared about the team and didn't? That's not Philbins fault, we'll never know his best work if we rip him for things he may not be responsible for.

 

My instinct about V.D. is that he'll never reach his potential. I said it when we drafted him and I haven't seen anything to change my mind. I see him as a player who gets by on his talent but has never and is unlikely to ever put in the work to become a great player. I think that at best you get a player who is great sometimes. People like to say he was our best CB, but in terms of a full season, I don't agree. He's been the best CB for a game or even a few game stretch, but over a full season SS has been better. I wanted Hakeem Nicks with that pick and I still think that would have been the far better choice. I don't have much of an issue with this trade. I can't say I'm happy about it, but I think we got decent value. Maybe Davis will someday become a top 5 CB, but I think the odds of that are slim. Personally, I was more bothered by the Brandon Marshall trade. He was a guy who was willing to work and had produced at a top 5 level. He had his issues, but he produced. We also got less value for BM. The one part I understood about that trade is that we did dump a huge salary.

 

Would love to know when coaches are going to do there job and coach troubled players instead of trading them before the season starts.

 

So do you think that ireland sets the depth chart then?

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I will tell you exactly what all this trust has gotten the fans of the Dolphins. Since Shula left as the HC of the Dolphins 16 years ago, the Dolphins have a combined regular season record of 128-128. So while fans have placed their trust in the organization, the organization has rewarded the fans with a decade and a half of truly mediocre performance on the field.

Since Ross has been the majority over the last three seasons, the Dolphins have been a below mediocre 20-28. I for one no longer trust this organization to provide the fans with a winning football team. If they want me to once again purchase season tickets, it is up to Ross to prove to me that this organization actually knows how to build a winning football team. I am sick and tired of promises from the organization that they want to win, while they continue to sink to the bottom of the NFL. Enough is enough.

 

Now that I’ve had a chance to calm down and get a good night’s sleep, this trade makes a little more sense. Apparently, it was the Colts that were aggressively pursuing Davis, not the Dolphins trying to rid themselves of the sometimes knuckle-headed player.

Now it’s up to Ireland to somehow parlay this pick, the one he received for Marshall and the roughly $3M in cap space into what this team needs most – playmaker(s) on the offensive side of the ball. And I’m not talking about waiting around until next year’s draft either, it needs to happen now or Ireland needs to be shown the door.

 

Do you legitimately believe that Richard Marshall is a better and more talented football player than Vontae Davis?

 

Maybe he reaches his potential at Indy but it sure wasn't happening in Miami.He never seemed to play that well on a consistant basis but with a new team ,we will see.

 

You just brought up the last game not me. I just commented on that. And if what you said is true about the cardinals, then why would any good player ever hit free agency?

 

Two things are bothering me about this thread...
1...The idea that someone can actually believe Richard Marshall, a player best suited for safety and so mediocre at CB that he was actually moved to safety by the Cards, is actually better than Vontae Davis. You may want to re-watch some game film on Davis and some actual game film (not just preseason) on Marshall.

2...The idea that "its ok to trade a young player just because we have decent depth there" or "because Vontae was supposedly behind Marshall on the depth chart". Well, whoop dee doo. The Giants dont trade talented DL because they have an embarrassment of riches there. Pittsburgh doesnt trade their linebackers just because every LB they ever put on the field seems to perform great. Even if Vontae had a so-so camp well, his results on the field during games are just fine. Plus players get hurt. Id wager that at some point during the year SS24 or Marshall will miss some games. I dont wish it of course but its football and it happens. So why again are we trading a young up and coming player who should be part of our core for a 2nd round pick? Unless that pick is flipped for a WR it makes no sense.

After sleeping on it, this just makes even less sense.

 

Yes. For our D this year, yes. Why wouldn't I? What has Vontae shown this year? Is my opinion influenced by his demotion? Of course. But, what has he done that makes anyone disagree with his demotion? I keep reading about potential or a game here or there where he looked great. If you don't have consistency from that position how do you have confidence in a game plan?

But all of that has nothing to do with my point. Which is that I disagree with the notion that it’s on Ireland that Vontae was demoted. That was a decision made by the coaching staff. I have no insider knowledge of the workings of the team, so that is just my opinion, but I’m fairly confident that it’s correct. Ireland took a position that the coaching staff felt we were deep in and got the best value he could, so that we can address other areas of greater need.

 

Let me flip this question back on you: what has Richard Marshall shown to make you believe that he's a better cornerback in this defensive system than Vontae Davis? You at least admit you're being influenced by Vontae's demotion, but you don't stop to ask whether or not that's a reflection of talent or merely a reflection of disfavor.

Let's phrase it another way: if Vontae Davis and Richard Marshall are both free agents, which player gets signed first and which gets signed to the bigger deal?

 

1. The coaching staff clearly disagrees with you here. They demoted him and kept him demoted. Why did they do that if he is so clearly a better player?

2. Do the Giants or Steelers have the holes in their team that we do? If we didn’t have such glaring needs I could see your point. Regardless if the WR position is addressed now, or in the draft, or even with the pick, that 2nd gives us options. Also, do you think Davis would have resigned with the Dolphins?

 

This just isn't true. He played all over the secondary. They didn't move him because he was mediocre at CB. Marshall was great last season. He certainly has never put anything on tape that is remotely as bad as Vontae's for the first half of last season.

The reality is that Vontae Davis isn't any better today than he was when he entered the league. To keep hoping he will get better - after his second coaching staff seemingly gave up on him - is just relying on hope.

 

His play was equal to Vontae's in the preseason. Why was there disfavor? Why is the disfavor being so easly dismissed, or pawned off on Ireland? I want a winning team, not a talented roster.

I think Davis gets the bigger deal. This is the reason why he was traded; he has more perceived value around the league. We don’t get a second for any other CB on the team. This in spite of the fact that the coaches felt at least two of them out played him.

 

People overpay for potential all the time. I'm not sure thats a very accurate way to measure ability. I am fairly certain that Marshall will sniff a pro bowl before Davis does though.

 

I've been reading a lot of angry posts from people about the VD trade. I'm like all of you, a Dolphins fan. So when he was traded I was upset because he was a Dolphin. However, it does seem that our DB's and passing defense have been horrible over the last 4-5 seasons and VD has been playing. Am I wrong? So, either he's not as good as we all hoped or thought he was, or Ireland is stupid.

Now, since Ireland has been out from under that total eclipse shadow named Parcells, I think he's done well. Only time will tell if he's done great. However, anyone remember the off season and the entire Matt Flynn fiasco? How many here were upset that Ireland passed? That's just one example of many that shows that Ireland (and company) are making smart moves. Will they all pan out? No, no one is perfect. Hell, even the great New England Patriots (and every other team in the league) passed on Tom Brady 6 or more times.

My point is: Don't be so quick to bash a move.

 

Yep, we don't get a 2nd if not for Davis's potential. We don't get a 2nd for anyone else in our secondary.

 

I don't see Marshall ever making the Pro Bowl, especially not in the AFC.

 

1. Then the coaching staff should really re-evaluate what theyre watching. The secondary wasnt exactly Philbin's area of expertise in GB. Why did Vontae Davis then have a positive PFF ranking in a secondary where everyone elses player ranking was towards extremely negative last year? No one else was even close to being neutral among our secondary last year. Yet somehow during the games, when it mattered, Davis was on the right side of that analysis. How is that possible?

2. You dont rob Peter to pay Paul. Its as simple as that. Youre building a team. Marshall's history in Carolina and Arizona is not good as far as his CB play goes. So what if hes having a good camp. The on field results during games which is what actually matters says otherwise.

As for Davis resigning thats an entirely different issue. If the team knew he wouldnt then yes that would change things. If the team didnt even broach the subject or it was still open to negotiation than that just falls on the wrong side of things for me.

They did move him because he was mediocre at CB. Richard Marshall was moved from CB during week 9 last year. Before that he had negative rankings in 6 out of 7 games at CB, 5 of which PFF gave him an extremely negative grade. He committed 5 penalties, missed 4 tackles in those games.

Week 1 vs Carolina: Targeted: 5 Completed: 3 YA: 47
Week 2 vs Washington: Targeted: 6 Completed 3 YA: 32 INT: 1 Passes Defensed: 1

For copyright reasons I cant post every game but rest assured, the washington game (with LOL@John Beck quarterbacking) was his highlight. The rest of the games were even worse then the Carolina game and he was merely a nickel corner.

At FS, he compiled very good rankings in every game but 1, committed just 1 penalty while missing 4 tackles. In every facet of the game his play was better (run d, pass d, completion % against). Marshall was great here after being one of the worst CBs in the league through the first 8 weeks.

The idea that Vontae Davis isnt any better now then when he entered is crazy. While I agree with Rafael's earlier assessment that Vontae does get by on natural ability a lot that just relates to my earlier point that Vernon Davis was exactly the same way for the first few years. It took a while to click. But Vontae has made noticeable improvements in his awareness, his tackling, and his strength (much better playing press coverage now). He still has a ton of upside and to give him away for a 2nd round pick is flat out idiotic.

Unless this pick is flipped for a WR (Bowe/Wallace/etc) or the FO knew Vontae wouldnt resign this trade is a straight F for Failure.

 

Needless to say, our opinions on the players are pretty different.

Resigning both Vontae and Sean Smith was not in the cards once they signed Marshall.

 

Well simply put then they packed the bags of the wrong player. Smith has been even more inconsistent then Davis which seems to frequently be the biggest complaint about Davis.

And those arent opinions. I actually LIKE Richard Marshall. I just like him a lot more as a safety then as a CB. As a CB his career stats say hes pretty poor. But as a FS he was borderline exceptional. Vontae Davis, say what you will, has a boatload of talent. And you just dont give up on that unless youre blown away. But I wouldnt expect El Jefe to understand that. Just when he starts to win me back by doing something intelligent in drafting Tannehill and cutting Chad Johnson he does something this dumb.

 

Short of a great year, I thought there was almost no chance that we would re-sign Davis. My guess was that he was going to be allowed to leave without us ever even making him an offer. I didn't think it was going to be an either/or thing. I saw the decisions on them as individual. If they both played great we try to re-sign them both. If they both failed to develop, then neither would be re-signed. My feeling was that Davis had dug a deep enough hole that he was unlikely to ever get out of it with this organization.

 

The world is littered with exceptionally talented players that never reach their potential. The reality is that this is now the second coaching staff that has failed to get Davis to play to his expectations. What exactly is going to be the catalyst for him improving? There is no new coaching staff coming here.

 

The coaching staff didnt even give him a CHANCE in game action! Hes been a good CB for a few years whats to say he wouldnt have taken the next step? Nothing.

 

The coaching staff's evaluation? A poor work ethic? Being immature?

What if we put him out there starting for a few weeks and he gets destroyed? How's his trade value going to look then?

 

I have a hard time taking PFF’s analysis over Blue Adams’s and Kevin Coyle’s, when those two had a whole offseason of work with Davis, and access to film that PFF does not. One thing that I have taken away from Hard Knocks is that Philbin puts a lot of value on what his position coaches tell him about the players. I doubt that Philbin demotes Davis without those two telling him that he should, so it doesn’t matter what his specialty was in GB. You're also looking at what he did instead of what he was doing. Players change. I’m giving the new staff the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong.

 

Even Philbin himself said on HK for all to see, that preseason depth charts don't mean much. Of course I do not think Ireland sets them. You must think I'm pretty stupid to ask me that. I think he has final say on personnel decisions though. I also do not believe this trade was made at the demand of Philbin and the coaching staff, and/or them saying they just couldn't work with Vontae. It appears from what Mando said in the Herald that had the Colts not improved their offer to a 2nd plus a conditional 6th, that Vontae would still be on the team.

 

Its not the new staff that I felt was behind this to be honest and if you dig back far enough you'll find I wanted Joe Philbin when people were riding Jeff Fishers jock in to the ground. I still like Joe Philbin, maybe even more then when we were discussing who we should hire. I just dont agree with what JEFF IRELAND did here.

 

Anyone know what the conditions is and what that 6th can escalate to?

 

I'm glad to see at least one person around here has a clear understanding on this situation and it not just a blind sheep following the shepherd Jeffy as he leads his loyal minions through the valley of darkness.

 

Why do you mention Blue Adams and not Lou Anarumo?

 

I think that is an unfair characterization of the opposite viewpoint.

 

I see what you guys are saying. I just don't think this trade happens if Davis isn't the nickel and doesn't have the maturity issues that have been covered ad nauseum. Ostensibly Ireland turned the 3cb into a 2nd and a 6th, if that's all you know, I think you have to call it a good move. He was able to do that because Davis has shown good to great things during his career. Which is why there are questions about the trade. He doesn’t do it if Davis wasn’t out played by Marshall in the off/pre-season, that's what it comes down to for me. Davis has been around long enough that he should be judged by his play and conduct, not his potential or promise.

 

Cut and pasted wrong name. (they're right on top of one another on the website) I don't know the staff off the top of my head. You're right I should have said Lou.

 

-Being labeled as having character concerns coming out of college.
-Showing up out of shape last season, then subsequently getting injured at the beginning of the season.
-Showing up drunk to practice; subsequently receiving condemnation of his behavior from Brandon Marshall
-Being demoted to the 3rd CB by new coaching staff

I think all those things in aggregate contribute to a very solid picture of why Davis wasn't going to take the next step in his career, especially not here.

Because he was passed over by someone who wasn't on the team last year, and someone who is just as talented, but seemingly has better character.

 

The Cardinals signed him for the 2011 season and though so little of him that they let him go after just one season. That tells me all I need to know about Marshall. He also wasn't deemed good enough to be resigned by the Panthers after the 2010 season. A season in which the Panthers had the worst team in the entire NFL.

The fact that he is now starting for the Dolphins should be a reason to be very scared about where this season is headed. Instead you seem to think he is somehow an upgrade at the CB position. I just don't get it.