The Trenches: The Dolphins are a Very Talented Team

Would love to see PBE's from PFF on this. I know bad tackles give up around 4-5 pressures a game.

 

the most important thing that did not happen, philbin switching the oline around in TC like the sparano regime used to do for weeks, this unit with the exception for jerry is playing together for weeks now, jonathan martin after a rough preseason has really stepped up his game

 

It is interesting to me that the top two rushers in the NFL are CJ Spiller and Reggie Bush, two runners who are almost identical to one another. Spiller is averaging an insane 10+ ypc this year and has 292 yards on 29 rush attempts. That will even out over time, but he's been dynamic.

 

I think you bring up the right points.

Wins, especially big ones, can really cloud judgment.

But take a step back for a second and think about this. Joe Philbin came in thinking that passing and stopping the pass wins ball games. He's given a GM holdover from a regime and philosophy that are clearly constructed on running and stopping the run to win ball games. Philbin has done a good job adapting, as you suggest. Has Ireland? Trading away the team's top WR and top CB, having his 3rd round "pass rusher" be a draft pick that even lay people could watch in college and see was mostly a run defender, trading up in the 4th round to "build (their) strength" at the tailback posiiton in Ireland's own words, while not addressing the WR position...it doesn't seem to me like Jeff Ireland is adapting to Joe Philbin the same way Joe Philbin is adapting to Jeff Ireland.

Is this going to work? I still don't know the answer to that. Put that together with the obvious differences we saw in philosophy between the two on Hard Knocks...it's tough to say this Head Coach and General Manager are really on the same page.

 

He's not playing up to 'his' standard IMO, for whatever reason.

We've played two games this year. And he's given up sacks, hits and been penalized in both of them. All three in both games. To guys not named Ware, Pierre-Paul, Abraham, etc. That's not good enough for the $90 million or whatever he's in line for.

Not saying he's all of the sudden terrible. I just think we've seen better from him. He was hurt a few weeks ago and I just wonder if he's playing thru some type of injury again.

 

I'm not even counting that one against Long. I haven't looked at it again, but first impression was it was a tough adjustment for him to try and make.

 

Is he really in line for that big of a contract? What are the recent comps for tackles in free agency? Honestly I'm not sure, but I think that market isn't as strong as it was a few years ago.

 

I'm not sure there are obvious differences in philosophy. I think both guys value smart, self-motivated players that embrace leadership. Schematically you could argue that historically Ireland hasn't built teams for what Philbin is running. But at the same time I'm not sure we can accurately say that Ireland has a preference schematically or what his preference is.

You look at guys who have played the best so far this year - Bush, Pouncey, Wake, Hartline...and they are guys that could succeed in any type of scheme. They are successful because of their character as much as their physical ability.

I think its also important to keep in mind that Philbin was hired by Ireland. I have a hard time seeing Ireland hiring someone that would be so far apart from him philosophically.

 

Joe Thomas got 7 years $84 Million with $44 guaranteed.

Long will be asking the same plus the slight increase

 

Very good point(s) and certainly bears tracking.

Even the way he said it, it was clearly more about adaptation than core philosophy. "It appears, ya know, as I told the team in the locker room, our philosophy right now is we've got run the ball...."

I don't know about Marshall, but it seemed like Philbin was ok with moving Vontae. But he clearly doesn't want distractions (and Marshall was supposedly still a big one), and Jeff's big move at WR was to sign Chad Johnson.

You want to believe that he's truly in rebuilding mode. And that some of those head-scratchers were more long-term visions. They've got additional high picks and gobs of money to spend next year (appear to be taking the cap lumps this year).

 

Sure, he'll ask for that. But I'm not sure there will be a market for him. Time will tell I suppose.

 

have you seen an illegal contact penalty?

I haven't. Which is weird because I am used to seeing them all the time.

 

If that's the case, then get rid of Ireland, because philbin is the man. However, is it likely or even fair to have the next GM keep Philbin?

 

I almost choked to death reading this.

Ouch.

 

Jeff Ireland? Is that you?

 

But what did Duane Brown just get?




6 yrs for $53 million.


That seems more in line (albeit less overall) with what he should expect to get.

 

I'm not sure I have, but I have seen pass interference calls. There were two in the Dolphin game yesterday.

The assertion being made was that they are calling more defensive holdings, i.e., illegal contact, than pass interferences. I'm not seeing/noticing that. But I'm also not noticing an inordinate number of plays where a DB is mugging a receiver and nothing is being called.

 

wow that is so solid...a bargain for a LT IMO....Would love to see Miami sign him to that type of contract...

If Long wants Thomas money forget it....

 

I think Joe Philbin has been pretty consistent on the distraction thing. But I happen to know that it was Philbin who was skeptical the entire time about Chad Johnson and had to be convinced to accept him as a signing...so I'm not sure that's an issue where Ireland and Philbin are on the same page. When you get to the Vontae thing, I don't think Jeff Ireland was OK with trading Vontae because he was a distraction, that wasn't why he took that phone call. I think Jeff Ireland was genuinely frustrated that after 3 seasons and 4 training camps, Vontae Davis is still inconsistent on the football field. Jeff Ireland is all about arrow-up and arrow-down and for him, Vontae was ceasing to be an arrow-up guy. That's based on what I saw on Hard Knocks. Given that, it wouldn't surprise me if for Philbin trading Brandon Marshall was all about the distraction while for Jeff Ireland trading Marshall was all about those dropped touchdowns.

As for those asking about what other philosophy differences we saw on Hard Knocks, this is something Alen brought up that I agreed with. I think Ireland (and Gaine) showed himself to be quite a bit more about the measurables and athleticism than Philbin and staff.

Thing is, we don't know whether this disagreement is going to be an impediment or not. We just have to find out. For all we know the whole yin to his yang thing could be great for the team. Or the two could find themselves never on the same page and not clicking.

 

A year ago I hand this to him on a silver platter. Now, I don't know.

I think Ireland has to get Bush locked up to a new deal, tag Long this offseason and make him show he is worth the mega deal.

 

Because Jake Long is more akin in talent to Duane Brown than to Joe Thomas?

 

I don't think we saw disagreement. They both believed in the BM and VD trades. The suggestion that they had different motives or reasons for that is purely your speculation.

The Chad Johnson signing was the epitome of a low risk signing. There was no financial risk and if he wasn't fitting in he could be cut with no financial ramifications. And he was. I don't think there is anything to suggest Ireland saw it any other way.

 

So much of this stuff for OLs is based on reputation though. You're paying a guy based on league value, what another team out there will pay him if you don't. Jake Long to the rest of the league is "Jake Friggin Long" the perennial All Pro, guy who has never NOT been to a Pro Bowl since entering the league. And now on Hard Knocks everyone sees him taking a big step up as a leader. He's a slam dunk player.

The other thing to keep in mind is everyone knows that the salary cap is about to take a big step upward when TV contracts are renewed. Any new contracts you sign for a guy are going to be reflective of expectations, reflective of expected future realities, not current realities.

So yeah I'm pretty damn sure that Jake Long is going to ask for more money than Joe Thomas got. He might even get it.

 

When Jeff Ireland drafted Jonathan Martin, it wasn;t just to play Right Tackle, imo. It was a contingency for Left Tackle in case Long asked for more than Jeff wanted to pay.

 

here's my question.

Does Jake become more or less likely to get that contract because the Dolphins have so many draft picks?


Argument A) Because we can use those picks to address needs at WR, Safety and DE, we won't have to find those in Free Agency, meaning we can spend money on keeping Long.
Argument B) Because we have more picks, we could conceivably use a high pick on a LT who either starts right away at LT, or moves to RT with Martin shifting to LT. We save money by not re-signing Long and use that money in Free Agency isntead to get WR, Safety, DE etc.

So the real question, in my mind, is a bigger-picture one than Jake Long or LT.

The question is a total value one... is it easier to get talented LTs in the draft and spend money on another position in free agency, or is it easier to get the other positions in the draft and spend the money retaining Long.

 

I'm somewhat certain from past comments that CK will believe that letting Jake walk rather than paying him a chunk of our cap is the better value play.

 

I haven't seen more defensive holding calls, however I have seen A LOT of bumping passed 5 yards and I haven't seen one illegal contact call being made. In fact I am seeing/noticing an inordinate number of plays where a DB is mugging a receiver and nothing being called.

It gotten to the point where I am questioning whether or not they have eliminated illegal contact.

 

I agree, and then they will call PI on a play where there is absolute minimal contact.

 

No, because I think Jake should end up getting about $10M per year, which is closer to the ~$9M per that Duane got than the $12M per that Joe got.

And I certainly don't see the difference between Brown and Thomas as being worth $3M per year even though I think Joe is the better player.

 

always contra...there is no other way for you right ?

 

Depends on the chunk.

 

Then the discussion will be like this, I believe:

1) Ireland will want to let Jake go (value philosophy)
2) Philbin will want to keep him (keep talent on the field, build lockeroom with team leaders philosophy)
3) Ross/Dees/Biz Side will consider how it affects fan perception, loyalty, sales and brand image (I think they could let Jake go and focus on Tannehill and Bush... unless they plan to let Bush go too).

From a team loyalty, chemistry and locker room standpoint, letting BOTH Bush and Long go could really cause some disgruntled players and strain the sense of "We" that the team is just starting to build. I'd expect EITHER Jake OR Bush to be back. Not both.

 

Because of league-wide perception it will be more than Ireland wants. I think we both strongly expect that.

Here's the part of the iceberg that's under the water, however.

Jake is playing injured. (Talking to several sports injury professionals here in L.A., I found out that none of them think Jake's knee could be anywhere close to 100% in the timeframe he returned in from the sprain, even a grade 1 sprain).

Jake will obviously not play as well injured as he will healthy. Ireland will point to Jake's lower performance in negotiations. Jake's agent will point to Jake playing through injury for the team (think Will Allen).

Now in Will Allen's case, we still rewarded Allen. But Allen was a LOT less money than Jake. Plus, there are real questions about whther Jake's body could continue to deteriorate... which makes Ireland hesitate to pay top dollar imo.

I think the big gap in negotiations will be the Dolphins coming from a 'look how you played, you have issues' standpoint and Jake's side coming from a 'pay me for what I can do when I am healthy' standpoint.

(which, by the way, other players will watch to see if they should sacrficie their bodies. will good soldiers be rewarded, or told they underperformed and aren;t worth the money? I think Hartline doesn;t trust Ireland to pay him properly if he plays through a nagging injury with lower numbers, which is why he took a nice long vacay through training camp)

 

Joe Thomas is the benchmark for Jake Long. His agent will make sure of that.

Their career paths are almost identical. Both drafted top 3 a year apart. Both are perennial pro-bowlers, and the general consensus among ranking LTs in the league have Thomas and Jake at 1 and 1A.

The two were first team All-pros twice.

Duane Brown, on the other hand, was 2nd team all-pro and has made only 1 pro bowl prior to his new contract.

I'd like the asking price to be more in the Duane Brown region. But I'm certain Jake's agent will be using Joe Thomas's contract as his benchmark.

 

Jake was already making $11.55 million per year (original contract 5 years, $57.75 million according to RotoWorld). His agent is going to say my guy has made the Pro Bowl every year he's been in the league, and you want him to take a 13% pay cut?

And you say yes, because no other tackle in the league is making that kind of money, except Joe Thomas who is...clearly better than Jake Long? You have to think of this from the agent's standpoint. He's got legs to stand on in this. You're asking his client, perennial Pro Bowler, All Pro, some say future Hall of Famer...to take a 13% reduction on his second contract compared with his first contract. You could MAYBE make this case if the reason was because nobody else makes that kind of money and the only reason Jake made it with us was because we made him the #1 overall pick. But then he gets to say yeah but Joe Thomas makes that money. And you say but Duane Brown doesn't. And he says but Duane Brown was a late 1st round pick and didn't even start to play well until 2011, so when they signed that contract there was an understood risk that they didn't know if Duane just had a great year coincidentally in his contract year, or if he's a consistent every year kind of guy...whereas Jake Long has been a great performer every single year. Meanwhile he points out that everyone knows the salary cap will take a big jump when the TV contracts get renewed (I believe 2014), so he can't afford (from a business standpoint, as an agent) to negotiate some cheap deal for his client who is commonly viewed as an absolute slam dunk, when other guys in a year or two are going to be negotiating deals that make it look puny.

I think people are trying to have their cake and eat it too, a little. They want to re-sign Jake Long but don't recognize what the cost of that will be. It'll be a lot.

 

I disagree with this. Jeff Ireland will want to keep Jake Long here. He has his name attached to Jake Long, there are people that know it, and he's going to want to keep it that way. He loves every bit of Jake Long. If someone steps in and questions whether this is a smart move, it would be Steve Ross. Joe Philbin will not do it. As Philbin says, he doesn't get into the whole numbers aspect of the discussion.