The Trenches: The Dolphins are a Very Talented Team

If there was no other interest in Mario Manningham, I highly doubt he would command a $4 million dollar per year contract.

At the very least: I'm sure the Giants had a number out there to retain Manningham, and SF had to top it.

 

That's not a reliable indicator of how good someone is.

I also don't think its a forgone conclusion that Manningham is $7 million dollars better than Naanee. His stats certainly haven't been.

 

I completely disagree. And I think another fault I'm seeing here is that you guys are using last year's stats alone as an indicator of A) who is the better player and B) who got the better bargain.

Mario Manningham caught 60 balls for a 15.7 AVG in 2010. He caught 57 balls for a 14.4 AVG in 2009. Had he played 16 games and not gotten the concussion last year, he was on pace for similar numbers.

Legadu Naanee also played 3 more games than Naanee last year and had a lower AVG.

Manningham has had almost twice the production throughout his career in a year less time. With 4 times the amount of TDs.

I'm not upset we didn't explore Manningham. I simply disagree when comparing the two players. They're not similar or equivalent or even generally equivalent. Manningham is the superior player.

And the fact that Naanee doesn't have a catch this season justifies it.

Finally, to answer FinD's question. I'd probably rather have Manningham given what Shou just posted and the cap hit he poses rather than Naanee.

 

His stats throughout his career certainly have been

 

0 catches isn't significantly less than 7 catches for 57 yards. It certainly not $2 million signing bonus more.

 

Not last year and this year so far. And his career stats have not been $7 million better which is what i said.

 

Last year:
Manningham played 12 games
Naanee played 15 games

If they play the same amount of games, Manningham has more catches. And a greater AVG per catch. The guy went out with a concussion for 4 games.

And how is 7 catches for 56 yards not better than 0 catches for 0 yards?

 

Over a 2 game sample size...... it is significant.

 

I'm not trying to highlight how good Mario Manningham is here. Because I don't think he's all that good.

What I do believe, however, is that Legadu Naanee is taking up space on this team. And that in itself is hurting our team. On one of his rare targets he failed to break up an interception (even Philbin has said that more needed to be done by the receiver there). That hurt the team. I think he's a bad NFL receiver, and I won't be surprised when he's either released or loses snaps at an alarming rate to guys like Matthews and Moore.

 

I feel like you're not reading what I'm saying.

Last years stats for both players do not show one player to be worth $700k and the other $7 million. And a 2 game sample size at this point isn't significant for either but the stats certainly do not justify the money. I don't know why you aren't understanding that very basic concept.

 

When this season is over, provided both players are healthy, what do you expect their numbers will look like? Naanee has already seen his snaps reduced now that Hartline is starting. My guess is this trend will continue. When Armstrong gets healthy, and reports are he practiced today, Naanee will likely be phased out even more. I'm not even sure how this debate even came to be other than a straw man to justify Naanee even being on the roster.

 

I don't think anyone including Jeff Ireland would deny this.

There's a roster building element that you can't ignore though. Signing Legedu Naanee to a one-year, minimum money deal and having him do nothing is arguably a better outcome than signing Mario Manningham to a 2-year, bigger money deal and have him perform better, but not particularly well. It's not the best thing for short-term performance, but it's also not the most negligent thing either.

 

My point has always been that Manningham is better than Naanee and everyone knows it except a few here. Especially the people handing out the pay checks

 

I'm sure Manningham will have better numbers. I do not think they'll be $3.5 million better.

Again, I don't think of the WR position like you do. I think WRs can be divided into 3 categories GOATS, bads and everyone else.

GOATS:
Jerry rice, Megatron etc.
They have the ability to be great wherever they go regardless of system or QB.

Bads:
Nannee, Hagan, Manningham
They will never be great or good regardless of their surroundings. They just are warm bodies.

Everyone else:
Marshall, Bess, Welker, Hartline
They need the right surroundings to be considered good. Welker can be a Camarillio here and what he became in NE.

I make these distinctions based on their impact to the team they are on. Not on physical ability.

 

Better is relative though.

Its better to get punched in the face then kicked in the balls, but if I have to give up $700k for the kick to the balls and $7 million for the punch to the face...then kick me in the balls.

 

Have you read the past few pages of this thread? There are people here denying it

I agree. And I was never upset that we didn't explore Manningham. I don't think he's that good. He's average to above average.

 

Your classifications are off if you include Marshall. He made a pro bowl here. His QB's have been Cutler/Orton/Henne/Moore. Check his numbers.

As for Manningham, he had two very productive seasons as a Giant, and as the third banana, he had good numbers as well. Hardly a warm body.

 

I would have more tiers. Below the GOATS, there's a tier of good WRs who can produce very good to great numbers in the right system. I would put Marshall, Bess, Welker, Hartline, etc. in there. I would have a middle tier where the WRs are about average but can produce decent numbers in the right system. I would have Manningham in there. And I would have a bad tier where the WRs don't produce regardless of the system. That's where I would put Nanee. I don't think you can win if you're expecting production from those in the bad category. I think you can get by with WRs in that middle tier. I don't see any reason to consider Nanee a good signing. I think signing Manningham to that contract is debateable.

 

There are only 3 elite WR's BTW...Megatron, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald. If we are gonna make that the standard, we might go the next 30 years without one. They are rare.

We need to find guys in the second tier that Marshall occupies. (Nicks, Bowe, etc...)

As for our guys...Bess is the type that in the right system can be a mega star due to his skill set. Hartline is a clear cut #3 pushing for a #2 spot.

 

Well, the last sentence explains why I said what I said. For me its not so much about their stats its about their positive impact on the team. I just don't see enough info to break down the classifications more. Marshall was not that good for us in terms of positive impact for the team. He probably will be for the Bears, hence why he belongs where I put him IMO.

 

He'd fit no doubt. No matter who is covering him you need that coverage over the top. I like him in that he won't take too many receptions away from Hartline and Bess. His game is very different from Marshall who constantly needs the ball.

I really would like to see Armstrong turn it around. What's left unsaid about deep threats is that often times they take the best CB on the other team regardless of how good the player actually is.

 

Those pcts mean very little if anything when determining which receiver is better. Hartline caught 35 passes on 454 pass plays last season. 7.7%. By this stat, he isn't as good as Naanee. I am surprised you even brought up this pct thing. It seems a very futile attempt to try to paint Naanee as being better than he really is, to justify Ireland's signing him rather than spending a little more for someone like Manningham. That stat does not give any indication of the number of times a receiver was open but other receivers were also, and the QB just chose to throw elsewhere.
Last year if you look at catch pct, number of times thrown at compared to total passes caught, Naanee was about 59%. So were Hakeem Nicks and Miles Austin. So in that respect, Naanee is as good as they are. Which is laughable to even suggest. Just like looking at number of passes caught as compared to number of passing plays a receiver was in the game as an accurate way to compare receiver ability is too.

 

He hasn't had opportunities? He played with Rivers and Newton, and couldn't produce. He has another opportunity here, and apparently does well in practices but disappears in games.
I've watched Manningham a lot going all the way back to Michigan. He has the ability to be an explosive receiver and has demonstrated it in this league. Leading WRs in missed tackles caused and broken tackles such as he did in 2009 is something Naanee could only dream of. Manningham is also 3 years younger at 26 years old.
It's not only Manningham. Any of the other free agent WRs that Ireland could have tried to sign would have been better. Ireland chose to scrape the bottom of the barrel and we got this bum.
I swear, some of the forum members here will go to great lengths to twist and spin anything possible to justify and defend the personnel decisions that Ireland makes.
Has Ireland ever made a personnel move that you disagreed with?

 

That is a lame comment. Manningham's cap hit this season is 2.5mil. So that is what you're paying for this season's production and yes I'd rather pay a WR 2.5mil to catch 56 passes than 540k, Naanee's cap hit, for according to you: nothing.

 

That's not lame on my part, its a bad business decision on your part. Sorry.

I wouldn't go with either and play Matthews instead.

 

Why do you want to limit it to just last year? Is it because Manningham had very good years in 2009 and 2010 while Naanee as usual did very little, which wouldn't support your lame attempt to defend Ireland over any personnel move no matter what?

 

When he is released, we'll see how good he is, when no other team tries to sign him and he sits at home the rest of the season, enjoying the rest of his 700k gift he got from the Dolphins.

 

I posted the stat in response to the comment that Naanee could never put up numbers like Manningham because he doesn't get open enough. The facts don't suggest that. Catch% isn't everything and I didn't say it was. In fact, I pointed out that there are a lot of factors that go into it. Nor am I saying that Naanee is as good as Manningham. My sense is that he's a shade worse, but I'm not going to pretend that I have broken down all of their plays and compared them in any systematic or scientific fashion. Are you? What I do feel fully prepared to say is that Manningham is an average receiver, at best, and would not have made a significant impact on this team in terms of increasing wins or reducing the number of losses.

 

I don't agree. MM is still young. Only 26. There is no logical objective reason to think he couldn't replicate his 2009 and 2010 seasons. He had a down year last season because of the concussion. Yet the Naanee defenders want to just compare only 2011 because it supports their agenda of making Ireland look smart for signing him rather than any of the other FA WRs available.

 

That is just ridiculous. Comparing MM to Naanee and a journeyman like Derek Hagan? How sad. MM is already good. Proven to be a good WR in the NFL, based on two seasons where he had extensive playing time, 2009 and 2010. Your comments indicate to me that either you just want to argue or will go to any length to defend Ireland.

 

The "indication" you received is ridiculous and based on nothing but your own bias not a perceived bias of mine.

But then again, according to your thought process there's no difference between spending a 6 or 7 on Cunningham than taking Eddie Moore.

 

It's reasonable to think MM could replicate his 2009-2010 seasons barring injury, and by doing so it would certainly have significant impact, compared to whatever Naanee manages to contribute.

 

Wrong again as usual.

 

Naanee produced about as much with Newton last year as Manningham did with Eli. By opportunities, I meant targets. As you correctly pointed out, the lack of targets doesn't mean that Naanee wasn't open. What we know, however, is that he didn't get the targets.

I get it, you think very highly of Manningham. I don't. He's very average. Could we have added him? Sure. do I think he would have increased the team's win total at all? No. I guess you disagree. That's fine, but how many wins do you think Manningham adds?

Yes, Ireland has made many personnel moves that I disagreed with. More than the number that I agreed with. But I guess I don't expect any GM or coach to do things exactly as I would. It would be great, but it isn't realistic. I certainly don't see the point in complaining about the failure to add a mediocre WR like Manningham or the signing of a guy like Naanee at the vet minimum for one year to compete for a roster spot. My strong impression is that if Philbin, as the new HC with the passing offense expertise, had wanted any of the available FA WRs or draftable WRs, Ireland would have made an effort to get the guy. He did it with Tannehill. He did it with Jorvorski Lane. He did it with Jeff Fuller. I don't believe for a nanosecond that Philbin went to Ireland and begged for a particular WR or any one in a group of WRs and Ireland simply refused. All of the evidence suggests to me that Philbin was pretty content with the WRs we had and had high hopes for Hartline. When Hartline was hurt in camp, I think there was some concern about the group, but as he got healthy that concern dissipated. So far, Hartline has looked very good. If he keeps it up, he will put up some pretty nice numbers. I expect the same of Bess as the season wears on. It's still early, but I don't see that we have had any real WR problems after 2 games. We haven't had an inordinate number of drops. We haven't had an unusual number of coverage sacks, even with a rookie QB still learning his progressions, etc. The batted passes against Houston may have been Tannehill's fault and they may have been the OL's fault, or some combination of the two, but they were not the WR's fault. So while you seem to think the sky is falling with regard to the WR position on this team, I look up and see a normal partly cloudy sky that will allow this team to go out and do what it wants to do.

 

You yourself said you don't distinguish between things like that. Its a good move or a bad move. That's not me being wrong, that's you going back on what you said.

 

Wait, so you're projecting that a guy that caught 57 passes in 09, 60 passes in 2010, was on pace to catch >50 in 2011 (had he been on the field), and is on pace to catch >50 passes in 2012, should indeed catch ~55 passes a season?

Nah, I'd rather just take the guy that caught 24, 23, and 44 (also in pass heavy offenses) with a significantly lower YPC, and pray that he can produce 60 catches and a higher YPC with a rookie QB..............because I'll save a 1.8 million bucks.

 

I don't think he'd replicate those seasons because I think he'd still be playing behind Hartline and Bess.

This isn't really about Manningham vs. Naanee. They weren't the same cost. Manningham costs 5 times as much and is not as good a blocker or special teams player. The team (which I think includes Philbin and Sherman and not just Ireland), did not think Manningham was enough of a value over Naanee to justify the cost difference. We'll never really know if that was a correct decision or not because we don't know what Manningham would have done here. And it also may be that Philbin didn't want Manningham for reasons unrelated to his actual performance on the field. FRom what I recall Manningham had some drug issues in college and then got caught lying about it. He also had one of the lowest Wonderlic scores of all time, a 6, which makes him about half as smart as Vince Young. He doesn't seem like a Philbin type of guy to me.

 

It was not my intent to boil things down to just a Naanee vs Manningham thing. I think it helps a rookie QB to have at least some mid tier WRs who have been productive in this league. When I look at all the WR options that Ireland could have pursued, Manningham, Lloyd, Meachem, Garcon, Robinson, Morgan, Royal, Gaffney, Stallworth, etc, he decided to go all the way down to bargain basement and sign the worst starting WR in the league last season. Now, perhaps none of those other WRs wanted to come here, and their agents wouldn't even entertain offers from Miami. I guess that is possible, but IMO not probable.