Hyde5: Dolphins attendance drop worst in NFL

BTW, remember that the heat's secondary market is usually a false one as well....since the schedule is so large, most people do what my friends do....they list every single seats all year for double and triple and go to the games that don;t sell.

My friends had 2 spare tickets for ALL of last year. They sold them at a 100% markup all year. They got 7x the value fro the Laker game. They failed to sell once, for a game vs. Charlotte.

 

Because Ross isn't sweating $10M/yr?

 

you are missing it.

DEMAND is DOUBLE for the Heat as compared to the Dolphins, and you have to pay TWICE AS MUCH.

Get it now?

Oh, and the Heat will make more money than the Dolphins going forward from this season if the Dolphins continue their current income levels.

 

So you're telling me one team has twice as much demand, yet brings in less revenue. MAKES SENSE.

 

In simple terms:

Miami Sports fans are buying:

TWICE AS MANY Heat Tickets than Dolphin Tickets.

and paying at LEAST TWICE AS MUCH for them.

 

But still generate significantly less revenue.

 

Look at Gate Receipts.

Heat has beaten the Dolphins in Gate Receipts each of the last 3 seasons.

So no..they don;t bring in less revenue as it pertains to what we are talking about.

STADIUM receipts/expenses...the Heat thump the Dolphins.

Dolphin revenue is helped by the NFL as compared to the NBA. NFL merchandising and TV contracts are better than what the NBA gets....



You get it now?

 

They don;t have the NFL's TV contract for ****s sake.

Again...stadium revenue...the Heat is beating the Dolphins in each of the last 3 years.

 

People forget that I have two programs proving my point...canes fans despise the stadium..despise it..you don't think cane fan doesn't go because they hate the experience? ...that's exactly why some are not going, thousands.

Now if you wanted to combat that issue, your going to have to do something drastic, if you want to thrive for a loooong time, then you build the building that's special.

 

But hey...go look at the Forbes list.

The Miami Dolphins would need to host an additional Regular season home game to come close to the Heat in Stadium revenue.

The Heat turn a $21 profit from each fan....while the Dolphins turn $17.

 

OK, now we are making progress.

So, if anyone wants to hit Stephen Ross' wallet, stop watching NFL football all together.

 

Yeah, I totally get it. Stephen Ross has insulated himself from the South Florida market.

 

stadium revenue is still a huge part that can be augmented.

it can devalue his franchise significantly.

For example...the very best NFl teams in stadium revenue beat the Heat by almost 15% and the Heat is #2 in the NBA.

 

I don't understand why Stringer is taking up the fact that the NFL is subsidizing the Dolphins. That doesn't seem to have been part of anyone's point.

The average Dolphins ticket this year is $71. The average Heat ticket last season was $67. Section126 is pointing out that with Miami's attendance at 55,000 for 10 home games and the Heat's attendance at 20,000 for 44 home games, there's a strong possibility that the Miami Heat are quite literally drawing nearly 2x the amount of home attendance revenue as the Miami Dolphins.

 

Sec, can you explain to me how the heat cost more to run then what they brought in?

Arison said that after winning the championship..could never understand how that is??he actually said its a bad business to be in.

 

I'm saying that attendance is extremely overstated, and really has a small effect on the Miami Dolphins' business.

 

As for total revenue, on Forbes I believe revenue for the Dolphins in 2012 shows about $265 million whereas revenue for the Heat in the year in which the Heat lost the championship to Dallas was $158 million. So yes the Dolphins are drawing more revenue than the Heat, because of the TV contracts.

But that was never anyone's point so it seems to me like Stringer is erecting a straw man.

 

Everyone's point is that low attendance is problematic for the franchise. My point is that it is negligible for the business.

The Miami Dolphins brought in $56M in gate receipts last season. You could literally cut that in half, and the organization could easily recoup that.

 

Well, in a sense . . . The difference in the NFL's TV contracts is so great that the Dolphins can generate more revenue than the Heat even when they draw half the fans at roughly the same average ticket price. Losing 10,000 fans per game for 8 games at roughly $50 per ticket is still only $4 million per season. That is virtually nothing compared to the revenues the team gets from the NFL's TV contracts. So, in a way, Ross has insulated himself from the South Florida market by buying into an enterprise that generates so much TV revenue that the South Florida market's revenue contribution is not all that meaningful.

 

Distracting in a good way though.

 

For one thing Stringer, you said the following:

I think the Heat data certainly shows that in South Florida, winning CAN dramatically alter attendance and revenues. The Heat's revenue jumped +27% the year they got Lebron James and lost the championship to the Mavericks. You can try and take refuge in the point that attendance didn't change (because attendance was already at capacity) but that's a very, very weak point that does not take into account total demand at all. It's a simple fact that demand for Heat tickets has sky rocketed since they started winning.

 

Agreed. I thought you were trying to argue almost the opposite. My bad.

 

I think there is a difference between being a championship level team and just a regular good one. Sure, if the Dolphins go 14-2 the next few years and win a SB or two, attendance will go way up. But I tend to agree with Stringer that a few 9-7, 10-6 or even 11-5 seasons won't help all that much. It will help some, but not dramatically. And it really won't matter that much to Stephen Ross' pockets because the incremental difference in those gate receipts will be a small part of the team's revenue/income anyhow.

 

I don't know that Steven Ross would agree with you. According to Forbes, he's lost $40 million in asset value since he bought the Dolphins in 2009.

I don't think Steve Ross particularly enjoys the fact that the worth of his team is going down every year while the worth of the NFL in general goes up. Nor do I think he enjoys losing $40 million in net worth because his team stinks.

 

$40M is less than 1% of his net worth.

Just for comparison sake, Stephen Ross pushed for a $250M taxpayer subsidy, which he lost.

Which do you think he lost sleep over?

 

Apparently neither, according to you. Since that $250 million subsidy would only represent about 5% of his net worth.

But I don't particularly think Steve Ross enjoys the fact that he's $100 million poorer today than he would've otherwise been, because he bought the Miami Dolphins instead of just investing in treasuries.

 

I picked treasuries simply because that's a minimum risk investment.

If he'd invested in equities instead of the Miami Dolphins he'd be about $700 million richer.

 

Right, but surely he's already invested in equities, and has a certain risk-tolerance. There is a lot more risk in owning equities than there is owning an NFL team. The attendance is lower than that of the Raiders', and it barely is affecting the finances. Even a worst case scenario where the team literally draws 0 fans, and he still maintains most of his investment. He paid $1.1B for the team. Just being a member in the NFL is worth ~$700M. The Miami Dolphins brand wasn't worth much when he bought the team.

Either way, my point is that Stephen Ross' angle for adding value to his investment isn't about putting 20k more fans in seats at Sun Life stadium at $60/ticket. His value is in getting tax payer subsidies to develop real estate. Thats what he knows how to do, and thats what he's been very successful in life doing.

 

With more games, less seats and cheaper options for the Heat, the numbers don't really equate.

Look, I'm not saying our W/L record isn't a factor...it is, absolutely. But when you factor in cost & the needing of the whole day to go to a football game, its little wonder why basketball is doing better than football down there. Think about it, you can go to a basketball game after work.

 

They do that in Atlanta because that's what was done to them for decades!

 

Jesus H Christmas! Thank you very much!!

 

And if you look hard enough, I'm betting you can get a parking pass free as a perk to take them of their hands.

 

I'll explain it...

He's lying. LOL

 

You missed the part where there are no cheaper options.

Again, Miami Sports Fans are buying TWICE as many tickets at TWICE the price for the Heat over the Dolphins.

 

The thing being overlooked by this is also the fact that operating income on the Dolphins' $265 million in revenues is only $14.5 million. That implies operational expenses of $250.5 million. Coincidentally if you look at the New England Patriots their total revenue is $380 million and their operational income is $118.8 million, implying that they have $261.2 million of operational expense. The operational expenses are more or less the same and so the delta between Miami's $56 million of gate receipts and New England's $97 million in gate receipts, plus the additional revenue the Patriots get just because they're a more popular team (wonder why that is? mm?) represent the delta between our paltry $14.5 million operating revenue (about what Jake Long will make on a franchise tag) and New England's healthier $118.8 million.

But again I guess we've reached the point where a hundred million dollars doesn't matter to Steve Ross. After all, he's rich. I'm sure it's exactly that sort of (lack of) attention to detail that got him rich in the first place.

 

Don't do that. Don't try to win the argument by screwing with the facts.

You can buy tickets to a Heat game for $10. That's a cheaper option than a Dolphin game.

Again, you cannot compare basketball and football in this discussion. The tickets prices are different, there are more games, one game takes up different amount of time, different capacity, different game times, different importance to regular season games, star power's effect on sales is different. There is virtually nothing that is similar enough to compare.

 

Oh sure when in doubt blame the mexicans