For a few years, we had rosters many said were bereft of talent. I feel like we now have at least average players at every spot, and above average players at several. It's time to change draft philosophy. Where it made sense to trade down before to select more decent players to fill more holes on a poor roster, now we are purely in upgrade mode. That means drafting high and not trading down. It may even mean trading up. Imagine this roster, if we resigned our free agent players... Then aggressively used all five of the picks we have in the first three rounds to select a stud pass rusher and a stud WR or TE. I think we'd see a team that went 10-6. Instead of 6-10 as the may do this year. Conversely, if we brought in five average players, what impact would that really make?
It really depends on how the draft lines up with the juniors and all, and where we wind up slotted to draft, if its me, I trust my eyes to find two players with that hi #1, unless its a game changer,a franchiser... And if we go defense, it better be the next ray Lewis, otherwise I think we should go loco on that offense.
Before we get the "How could you think we have decent talent?" reply, here's what I think of the roster in each area (Below Avg, Avg, or Above Avg) Defense Defensive Line - Above Average Linebackers - Average to Above Average Cornerbacks - Average to Below Average Safeties - Average Offense QB - Average (likely to improve with experience) Offensive Line - Average to Below Average Running Backs - Average Tight Ends - Average Wide Receivers - Average Special Teams Punter - Above Average Place Kicker - Average to Below Average Coverage and Return Teams - Above Average
QB: Dan Marino RB: Barry Sanders WR: Happy Randy Moss WR: Jerry Rice DL: Reggie White DL: Bruce Smith LB: Ray Lewis
I haven't watched nearly as many games as I will when this season officially ends, I always wait for it to end before I really go there..if we lose Sunday, I'll be in the draft forum for the next 6 months..I'm looking to trade down.. Tyler Eiffert..Brandon Cooper..Manti t'eo ..B Werner...Tavon Austin..Cordarelle Patterson..Stud Bailey..Cobi Hamilton..T Williams Justice Cuningham..Shane Skov..Chase Thomas..Stepfan Taylor...Andre Ellington..Matt Elam..Tyronne Matheiu..Ryan Swope.. Those are a few players that will go from top 5 til the end of the third.. Give me five if those bad Boyz and I'll be dreamin.
Nah. I want one of Jarvis Jones, Bjoern Werner, or Sam Montgomery with the 1st then WR Robert Woods by trading up with our seconds. Or CB Johnathan Banks with the first, then Woods with the lower picks (trading up if necessary) or Tyler Eifert. I want two great players out of those five picks.
I don't really think there is a "stud" WR in the draft this year in the sense that you are thinking. It's ballsy to trade a bunch of picks for one player but it would really depend on who we re-signed and who we brought in via free agency before I would say "yeah I'm OK with this."
Werner and jones will go top 10 so I don't think their realistic at this point, unless you wanna suck for em.
I would try and sign Greg Jennings..which would mean I need one 2 nd rounder who compliments Jennings, Bess, Hart, to round out the group.
I just don't like trading down. As was pointed out in the Miami Herald this morning, the Dolphins decided to trade down in the first round in 2010. They ended up drafting a very average Odrick and Misi with the picks they received for their own first round pick. They ended up losing out on a chance to draft players which have proven to be far better NFL players. Having additional picks doesn't make much sense if the person making the selections doesn't know how to pick the best talent. Unfortunately I see Ireland just continuing to pick mediocre talent if he is still the teams GM. Until he is replaced, this team will continue to be what it has been since he first became the GM five years ago, which is a very mediocre team in the NFL.
We had a great need to accumulate more players at multiple positions. our defensive LB corps from the start of the 2009 roster, had 1 player (Wake) who is still on the roster. that LB corps was terrible. our defensive line was pretty good (Soliai, Starks) but depths was mediocre (only McDaniel) the other 5 players are no longer on the roster (and Ferguson retired) and Langford moved on. I have no problem with the tradedown. Misi is playing pretty well. Odrick is better than we're giving him credit for. He's the 4th best Dlineman, but our first three - Soliai, Starks and Wake are pretty damn good. We need a 5th lineman who can rush from the outside, then that rotation is top notch.
I certainly appreciate your opinion on the trade in 2010. I just think that drafting Thomas at safety or PierrePaul, or even Weatherspoon would have given the Dolphins a much more talented player than Odrick or Misi. Odrick was a first round selection and as you stated, Soliai, Starks, and Wake are all better players on the defensive line. Starks and Wake were free agents and Soliai was a 4th round draft pick in 2007. The fact that Odrick is only rated the fourth best defensive lineman on a team made up of two defensive lineman who were signed as free agents and a fourth round selection, shows that Odrick was a major reach in the first round of the 2010 draft. He was more suited to be a mid round draft pick. Koa Misi is okay against the run, but he has no pass rushing skills. He also is consistently beat in pass coverage and lately he has been replaced in passing situations. To me he also is no better than many players selected in the middle to late rounds of the draft. So basically the Dolphins gave up a chance to draft a pro bowl level talent in 2010, and instead traded away this chance for the opportunity to draft two very mediocre players. Personally I'll take one impact player over two mediocre players any day of the week.
I think the real difference maker is going to come from Free Agency this year ! #1 Wr has got to be priority #1...... I think we address this in Free Agency. Someone we can plug in for Tannehill and not expect growing pains. This will be the difference maker we're looking for. Than you draft one with potential to grow into a #1 role in the early-mid rounds. Our LBS are old, luckily Misi is really coming into his own. If we already had a QB i would have thought Keuchly was our pick. I anticipate we draft a few backers next year.
Odrick isn't mediocre as a 3-4 end. We drafted and developed players for a different team previously. To use an analogy: We have a few square pegs in round holes, and a bunch of oval pegs in round holes. We need to replace or reshape a bunch of pegs still. A team isn’t just about talent, it’s about how the talent meshes with each other and the system. We are on year 2 on the offensive side (I think last years offensive system needs fit with this years) and year 1 on defense with regards to team building.
I disagee. I think Odrick is very mediocre as a DE in the NFL. He has limited pass rushing skills and he decent against the run. If a team isn't about talent. Why is it that the teams who make the playoffs year after year are usually the the teams with the best talent on their roster? I guess it is okay with you that after five years of Ireland as the teams GM, we are still in a rebuilding mode. I have no problem giving Philbin and his staff time to rebuild around players they want for their system. I just don't have any confidence that Ireland is the right Gm to draft and sign the players Philbin is looking for in his system. Ireland has been here five years and this team is merely mediocre. Keep Philbin and get rid of Ireland after this season. Let the new GM work with Philbin and his staff for a year to see if they can get this team headed in the right direction. If after a two years with a new GM, the team is still going nowhere, the new GM can replace Philbin if he doesn't think he is the right man for the job. Hopefully with a GM who knows what he is doing, Philbin will have the type of players with the talent needed, to turn the Dolphins into a consistent playoff team.
Without turning this into a thread about He Who Must Not Be Named, I think one mistake I see consistently out of football fans is a blurring of the lines between "average" and "below average". The average football player in this league isn't really average at all. Don't mistake me, there are some terrible football players out there that get playing time, but not that many. The guy that "can play in this league" is really below average, IMO. That said, as far as this Draft is concerned I have been a proponent of doubling up on corners, ends and receivers. Receivers and corners because of desperate need, ends because of a combination of demand and inordinate supply.
I am right there with you. Ireland was onto something with the double drafting. The draft is such a crap shoot that backing your picks up was a smart idea. I'd go one step further though. 2 DE's, 2 WR's, 2 CB's, 2 TE's and a challenger for Clemons job.
Right, and this is my point. For the situation we were in, we had to stock the larder with decent players first. Now we have done that. We have a pretty good roster, though not a great one. It's time to switch philosophy now to target premium talent, meaning fewer picks, but being aggressive about going to get the great players. I'd rather bag a Revis or Julio Jones by trading up at this point, than to trade down and pick up a nickel corner and a #3 WR.
I think you can argue, as Ohio and I are, to defend the approach of stocking with lots of average talent with some small upside back when we had little talent on the roster. Now, I think you're right that it's definitely time to take fewer players with more impact, rather than more players just to fill holes.
I am not a fan (at all) of building in free agency. The ONE area of the team I think you can consistently get decent players in through free agency is along the Offensive Line. That's where I'd look for our O-line help.
This is only true fo half the defense. The Safeties and CBs, if talented, should be able to apply themselves equally well in Coyle's system. It's not as big a difference being a CB for Nolan than Coyle as it is o go from 3-4 End to 4-3 End.
How can the average football player not be average? That's a problem with the working definition, rather than the reality. Being a starter doesn't mean you are an average player, but you can most certainly put players into an appropriate context.
I don't agree with the double-down philosophy at this point. I think it hedges bets if you doubt your evals. Instead, ientify the highest chance player who will give you what you want and go get him. Agree that DE / pass rusher seems to be a great thing to pick in this draft. I'm glad our need is matching the talent available for once. That said, I am not feeling the receivers this yer. Disappointed in what's there and it has me wondering if it wouldn't make more sense to go after Banks at CB, then take one of the pass rush options in the second round.
A good distinction to make. By average I do NOT mean average relative to all starters ANd non-starters in the NFL. I mean average relative to starters... because that's what determines the roster that plays Sundays and that has us win or lose relative to other teams winning and losing. Average Among Starters in the league, is more the focus.
Disagree. It seems like Ireland has done best when he picks high talent can;t miss picks, not in the second third and fourth rounds. Hell, even low first round! Tannehill, Pouncey and Long were top of the first round picks and easily Ireland's best hits. His lower 1sts even, like Odrick, Vontae etc have not come close in terms of the same talent and production, imo. So use our 2nds, 3rds and next year's 2nd to move back up into the 1st round again. If we picked at #12, and again at #14 (trading 2 seconds, 2 thirds and next years second.. which would get us around the 1100 points the outdated draft value chart gives to the #14 pick) I'd be thrilled. And we'd be content to wait until the fourth round for Irealnd to pick again. Because the truth is, Ireland does his BEST work low in the draft and with UDFAs and off the chart FAs like Wake (CFL). Picked in the 4th Round or Later Chris Clemons (Starter) Brian Hartline (Starter) Reshad Jones (Starter) Nolan Carroll (Starter) Jimmy Wilson (Starter) Charles Clay (Rotates In Regularly) These guys start for gosh sakes. Could they be better? Yes, but truly, Ireland does well in the 4th-7th rounds. AND in the TOP half of the 1st round. Compare that to the returns we've gotten from the mid first round down to the end of the 3rd round. Vontae Davis (gone) Sean Smith (a win) Pat White (miss) Patrick Turner (miss) Phil Merling (gone/miss) Chad Henne (gone) Kendall Langford (gone) John Jerry (decent starter) Koa Misi (good starter) Daniel Thomas (decent, but not proven as a starter) You expect better results from your mid 1st to end of the third round picks than you're getting from your 4th-7th rounders, no? But that's not the case. We do almost as well with late round picks as with high picks, with the exception of can't miss top 15 guys. You wanna win a Superbowl? you have to get the most out of your picks. For us that means trading our low 1sts , our 2nds and our 3rds to always pick in the top half of the first. Then use our 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th to fill out the roster. Judging by history, if we used this approach in the 2013 draft, we would end up with TWO bona fide great players (high 1sts), plus two decent starters/rotational players from the lower rounds. We could live with that. Imagine adding a dominant pass rusher and a great receiving tight end or WR to this team, plus a mix of four O-line and DBs who are good enough to compete for starting spots. We'd be happier with that than to simply draft 18 new players by trading down, none of whom performed any better than the guys we already have.
What CK said. Playmakers at WR, DB, and pass rush..... and perhaps a stud LB <if the value presents itself> or a playmaking Hback (Jordan Reed preferably, Chris Gragg, Arkansas, as a fallback). There seems to be enough guys at these positions to go around this draft over the first 3-4 rounds to make a splash. Ideally we'd fix the offense in FA with seasoned players who can contribute immediately [Mike Wallace/Jennings/Bowe, Jared Cook/Finley, Kraig Urbik] and then use much of the draft to build a sustained defense for the future, while possibly using a 2nd or 3rd rounder on an irresistible offensive complimentary piece and couple mid to late round picks on Oline depth.
I'm not a proponent of doubling down if you're entering the draft with the mentality of "we're taking 2 players at this position regardless" [like Parcells seemed to do] to where you reach for a player..... but if the doubling down happens b/c each player represents great value in his own right and could each contribute to the offense, then I'm ok with it, especially if it's a position of need like WR, DB, and pass rush.
Do you understand the difference in the position that odrick played last year compared to this year? He doesn't get drafted to be a 4-3 end, that's the role he has now, but no way he gets picked with that as a goal. The fact that he isn't horrible speaks to his talent level. You need to re-read my post. I said it's not just about talent as talent. It is about how talent meshes together and fits the system. Do you understand what I mean? This post seems to imply that you don't. Just because you have talented players doesn't mean you have a team. That's why teams can stay good despite picking late year after year, while other teams can dominate free agency, pick high, and still suck. I don't remember mentioning Ireland at all. The team has new system's on both sides of the ball that try to do different things then we did before. Wake could not play DE in last year’s 3-4 base, Odrick was a great fit. Wake was great as an OLB, but I think he is even better as an end. Of course we are rebuilding. The systems we had failed, now we are transitioning. It would be silly to say it's been the same rebuild for five years now. The last build was a failure. Was it because of the talent or the system, or both? I put the system on the coaches and the talent on the GM. My opinion is it was on the system. NFL has changed. Ireland right now gets a pass because of Parcells. The system was all Parcells, the coaches were hired to run the system he wanted, and talent was acquired for that system. It doesn’t matter who picked whom. Rookie QB, new Offense, new D, and we’ve been competitive in most games this year? We have talent, now we just need to get the right mix and make a few key replacements. If Ireland is fired I’m not losing any sleep. Just like I’m not losing any sleep if he stays. I will have the same hopes and fears with a new guy as I have with him now, I’m not sure of anything with him. This is not the point of the OP. The point was to discuss what moves need to be made to complete this build, not to whine about the past.
Linebackers have a transition too, I think. That's more than half, but we have enough talent that some players can make transition to new positions in the front 7 fairly well. I'd say we need more pressure players at DE and more speed at LB. I thought going into this season that safety would be the weak point of the secondary and corner the strength, which is clearly reversed.
The Dolphins pass rush isn't as bad as people think, IMO. I believe we're a top 10 team in sacks. Of course, the more pass rush you can get the better, but I don't think it's as glaring of a need as WR or DB is. Plus, I'm going to keep beating that Olivier Vernon drum. I think he's going to be a pretty damn good player.
Or what the colts did with Luck..last I checked that freak is in the afc.. With our current situation, I think it's imperative to go after offense..I think the vision from up top is to up tempo the game and have an exciting offense.. The resources are there, the payers are there..Like I said, if there is a defensive player on the board thats better than what's on the board defensively than sure, otherwise, go offense.. I mean we have so many picks that it could balance out by the end, I would just make sure my offense gets the influx of hi level talent.
He *is* going to be a good player, but not a good pass rusher. The reason I'd like a great pass rusher is that it make more overall impact to get one great pass rusher than to get one great DB... usually. A great passrusher gives the QB less time on every pass to every part of the field. A great CB or Safety can only influence the area or man they are covering. One great pass rusher can help an entire secondary.
It is. Though if we sign Jennings, assume we are letting one of our own FAs go. Meaning a hole somewhere on the roster.
