Well you could use the logic that the more players you have out there being blatantly held the more likely a ref will call a ......well never mind.
I read the piece, great job. http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/41889/321/hard-work-is-the-ansah I agree with you in terms of his awareness, his read and react. His timing/awareness/length makes him outstanding and knocking down passes at the LOS. His sideline pursuit is superb, and as you mentioned his ability to read/react and peel off the QB pursuit and track down RBs on screens, etc. What I'm trying to figure out is whether or not that elite speed that he has for a man of his size will translate into him being a true attack player and a threat. I'm just not seeing it yet- DE is one of the positions where I want to see explosion in a player (especially the last few years hoping that we would draft a WR with some), and I want to see more of that out of Ansah. The obvious comparison is to JPP because of the size and speed similarities- with Ansah being so new to the game, I wonder how high he'll be drafted on not only his physical attributes and production, but on the sheer potential that he has. I'm not seeing JPP type of attack capabilities and explosion out of Ansah yet, I wonder if that comes with more experience or not. He's a very interesting prospect, but I also wonder if all of the recent hype has led to him now being overrated. I don't know, quite frankly. BTW- do you see him as an OLB candidate? I'm thinking no, but I'm not sure. Where did you see him listed as 6-5? Everywhere else I've looked he's listed at 6-6.
I don't see JPP in him. Different kind of rushers. He has at times reminded me of a taller LaMarr Woodley because both are power rushers. He just needs more work on technique and footwork but explosiveness is not somethig that he will gain much more of IMO. And yes, I do see him as an OLB candidate. As for the height, I didn't see a definitive 6'6", instead rounded and with colleges tedencies of smudging size, I went with 6'5" to be on the safe side.
After week 12 01. Florida State 6'4" 255Lbs DE Bjoern Werner - 39 Tackles 13.0 Sacks 02. Virginia Tech 6'4" 269Lbs DE/OLB James Gayle - 40 Tackles 5.0 Sack 03. Louisiana State 6'5" 240Lbs OLB Barkevious Mingo - 33 Tackles 4.0 Sacks 04. Oregon 6'7" 243Lbs DE/OLB Dion Jordan - 44 Tackle 5.0 Sacks 05. Clemson 6'4" 270Lbs DE Malliciah Goodman - 17 Tackle 5.0 Sacks 06. Georgia 6'3" 241Lbs OLB Jarvis Jones - 71 Tackles 10.5 Sacks 07. Texas 6'4" 265Lbs DE/OLB Alex Okafor - 52 Tackles 8.0 Sacks 08. Auburn 6'4" 246Lbs DE Cory Lemonier - 34 Tackles 5.5 Sacks 09. Louisiana State 6'5" 260Lbs DE Sam Montgomery - 32 Tackles 7.0 Sacks 10. Michigan State 6'7" 278Lbs DE William Gholston - 50 Tackles 3.5 Sacks 11. Ohio State 6'2" 263Lbs DE John Simon - 44 Tackles 9.0 Sacks 12. Southern Methodist 6'8" 280Lbs DT/DE Margus Hunt - 28 Tackles 6.0 Sacks 13. Florida State 6'3" 260Lbs OLB Brandon Jenkins - 3 Tackles 1.0 Sacks (out for season) 14. Texas A&M 6'4" 250Lbs DE Demontre Moore - 80 Tackles 12.5 Sacks 15. Texas 6'5" 245Lbs DE/OLB Jackson Jeffcoat - 28 Tackles 4.0 Sacks (out for season) 16. Southern California 6'5" 255Lbs DE Wes Horton - 34 Tackles 5.5 Sacks 17. South Carolina 6'8" 267Lbs DE Devin Taylor - 40 Tackles 3.0 Sacks 18. Illinois 6'6" 240Lbs DE Michael Buchanon - 57 Tackles 4.5 Sacks 19. Michigan 6'5" 280Lbs DE Craig Roh - 36 Tackles 4.0 Sacks *** South Carolina 6'6" 256Lbs DE Jadevon Clowney - 50 Tackles 13.0 Sacks *** Florida State 6'5" 265Lbs DE Cornellius Carradine - 80 Tackles 11.0 Sacks (Torn ACL) *** North Carolina 6'6" 260Lbs DE Kareem Martin - 40 Tackles 4.0 Sacks *** UCLA 6'4" 275Lbs DE Datone Jones - 50 Tackles 5.0 Sacks *** Cincinnati 6'5" 249Lbs DE Walter Stewart - 22 Tackles 4.0 Sacks (out for career) *** Western Kentucky 6'5" 249Lbs DE Quanterus Smith - 38 Tackles 12.5 Sacks *** Southern California 6'2" 250Lbs DE Morgan Breslin - 53 Tackles 12.0 Sacks *** Connecticut 6'2" 233Lbs DE/OLB Trevardo Williams - 42 Tackles 11.5 Sacks *** Stanford 6'4" 248Lbs DE/OLB Chase Thomas - 61 Tackles 5.0 Sacks *** Missouri 6'4" 295Lbs DE/DT Sheldon Richardson - 75 Tackles 4.0 Sacks *** Missouri 6'4" 265Lbs DE Brad Madison - 18 Tackles 4.0 Sacks *** Texas Christian 6'2" 265Lbs DE/OLB Stansly Maponga - 22 Tackles 3.5 Sacks *** Oregon State 6'3" 263Lbs DE Scott Chrichton - 40 Tackles 9.0 Sacks *** Brigham Young 6'6" 270Lbs DE Ezekiel Ansah - 57 Tackles 4.5 Sacks ***Not Ranked or Freshman/Sophmores
Devastating blow for Tank Carridine. He was on the fast track to being a 1st rounder, IMO. Some team will get a bargain now, though.
How far do you think he will fall, and would you gamble a higher rd pick to secure him, keeping in mind all of our other needs?
It depends on the medical prognosis but I think you begin looking at him with Miami's late 2nd round pick on down. Defensive end is a need. If from a medical standpoint you think 2013 will not just be a throwaway year, then you can justify spending a high pick on him. But it also depends who else is available.
IMO our 1st rounder should be tied to Randy Starks' future. If we keep him, I'd be more inclined to take Barr, with Odrick seeing enough snaps at DE to where Barr could serve as a situational pass rusher while developing as Wake's heir. Personally, I wouldn't draft him in the top 10 hoping he transitions into a 4-3 SLB hybrid. That seems risky to me, and if it doesn't work we just stunted his development at end, no? Plus, is he even comfortable coming off the left edge? I don't recall him doing it, or at least not enough to say I feel comfortable with him there. IMO you draft Barr with the day 1 intention of developing him into the future WDE so that when he's ready to take over, Wake should be at the point in his aging career where he's ready to transition back to situational pass rusher. Someone HAS to replace Wake in the future, and it's not too soon to start the grooming process now. However, if Starks leaves, SDE would be a much greater priority IMO, so I wouldn't hesitate a second to plug Ansah into that spot.
Exactly what I would like to see, with Odrick back inside at DT. Ansah provides run defense as well as a power pass rush and pass-tipping potential. Opposite Wake, he'd be great. Wake takes the weak side, Ansah takes the strong side. Or, Ansah lines up against the weaker OT and Wake lines up against the slower OT, depending on scouting the opponent. You can get Ansah late 1st, by trading our 2nd and 3rd to move back into the 1st round. BENEFITS: 1) That lets you still use your original 1st rounder to meet another need. 2) Get more out of Odrick playing him where he belongs at DT.. rotating him with Kheeston Randall on run downs, and letting him be fresher on pass rush downs. 3) Have extra free agency money by letting Randy Starks leave, and spending it on a CB or towards a WR. 3 scoops of win.
Sure, if there's a potential for Ansah in the late 1st, I'd move up our 2nd for him. Heck, I wouldn't be offended if we took Barr first and then Ansah. Ansah can move inside in nickel when Barr comes on the field. We'd have an ominous pair of starting ends for the next 10 years. The next 3 picks for Quinton Patton, Jordan Reed, and Stedman Bailey/Ryan Swope to bolster the offense.
He really did dominate, although the immobility of the OSU QB and tackles certainly helped. He is an intriguing prospect though.
True, Texas had something like 10 sacks overall, so you have to consider the level of competition as per the less than mobile QB and the questionable play of the OSU OTs. Still he's a very good player that could be a good fit for us, my best guess 2nd rd if he lasts that long. Solid overall DE, he lacks an elite burst but he's still active and strong at the LOS.
I thought that I'd take a look at Alex Okafor and Ezekiel Ansah this morning. The short version is this- I'd draft Okafor over Ansah. Both play with high energy and strength at the LOS, but Okafor has better movement skills imo, a better pressure player. Okafor sure got the job done last night against OSU, but I still look at him as a good but not great pass rusher who should be fine at the LOS in run support. A talented pass rusher who lacks an elite burst. Judge for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFYELG3ItAk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk8xNaqN6bc
Ansah would have to show that he can translate that track speed into actual game speed before I'd consider him in the 1st round. We need explosion, burst and pass rush at DE and when I watch him play I just don't see it. He runs fast track and plays slow football imo.
The problem is that he's not much of a pass rusher. I don't see it at all. He's a tall, athletic banger on the line and his speed shows mainly in excellent sideline to sideline range. It's all the same stuff said before- strong at LOS, bats down balls, heads up player. What he isn't is a pass rusher- this guy plods along, and that's the confusing part given the well documented track speed. If I'm a team in need of a top pass rushing DE, he's just not on my radar. An overall athletic, excellent sized DE? Yes. A pass rushing demon with an excellent burst to compliment Cam Wake? Not even close. He's just not that kind of player imo.
I think it's quite clear he's not a fit everywhere. There's a reason he's not a top ten pick type. He's Justin Tuck like, who could win with hands and inside quickness like Tuck if he develops. Tuck made a living out of it and also had experience at Notre Dame as a linebacker.
I wanted to put this in a Bjoern Werner thread, but there's actually not a Bjoern Werner thread, strangely enough. He's been on radar so long now, that's hard to believe, but I guess he debuted so high on the charts and made good on it so quickly during the 2012 season that he never got his own thread. I've just been hunting out some Werner clips. I've got 137 of them in the can right now. Suffice it to say I've seen a lot of his work. So here are some thoughts on him, at 2:30am. 1. Competition. The point has been raised that having played over right tackles, he didn't play very good competition. I think this point deserves a little bit of exploration. For one thing, if you want to see him face the best, watch his tape against Oklahoma in 2011. That was him facing the guy that is going to be a top 5 or top 10 pick at worst, Lane Johnson. He also faced 2012 NFL Draft 3rd round pick Donald Stephenson and beat him for a sack. In 2012, he faced Seantrel Henderson. Cornellius Carradine never faced a single tackle as talented as Seantrel Henderson, the entire year. Werner didn't have a great game against Seantrel but he did beat him for a sack. He also got a pressure on a 3rd & 5 off an inside move on Seantrel. On a 1st & 10 he beat Seantrel around the corner but the ball came out too quickly. Same happened on a 1st & 10 later in the 4th quarter. What I got a kick out of was on an interception, Bjoern went up and knocked Henderson on his butt as he was pursuing the ball, turned around quickly and blocked OL Brandon Linder from getting involved in the play, then turned around again and ran down the field and blocked Stephen Morris into tomorrow. He blocked three guys on one play. When Ereck Flowers briefly came in for Seantrel for a few snaps at right tackle, Werner promptly handed his but to him on a 3rd & 6. Ball came out just as he was about to hit the QB. When Werner got to flip over briefly to right end to play against Malcolme Bunche (the guy Cornellius Carradine got to abuse all day), he promptly handed his *** to him on an inside move and pressured the quarterback, then beat him on the outside shoulder and got to the quarterback. Against Florida, Bjoern got 3.5 sacks in the game going against primarily Chaz Green, who is regarded by NFL Draft Scout as the 4th best sophomore offensive tackle in the country, behind Cyrus Kouandjio, David Yankey and Antonio Richardson. He beat Chaz to a bloody pulp that day. Tank Carradine faced a mid-round favorite of mine, Xavier Nixon, and overall lost that battle. Against Virginia Tech, Bjoern faced Vinston Painter, the athletic offensive tackle that got invited to the Combine this year and acquitted himself well. He rates about as high as his left tackle counter part, Nick Becton. Against Boston College he faced John Wetzel, who rates about as high as his left tackle counterpart Emmett Cleary (both invited to Combine this year). Not many other teams Florida State faced had any offensive tackles of note, left or right. 2. Snap reaction. Bjoern Werner consistently gets off the snap better than any defensive end in the Draft, and it's not even close. Some players just feel the snap better than others. He's like a veteran that way. It can be a big advantage as it puts immediate pressure on offensive tackles and can make them susceptible to a number of bad outcomes. Sometimes it gives Werner enough of an edge to rush the outside shoulder. Sometimes it causes the tackle to overset and that would give Werner an opportunity to counter inside or convert speed to power. Sometimes the knowledge of how quickly Werner gets off the snap will cause false starts. Either way it's a big advantage, one you most commonly see in savvy veterans. By the end, snap anticipation and reaction was the only thing Jason Taylor still had that he could use to come away with pressure. But back in his heyday he combined that snap anticipation and reaction with his physical gifts and it made for one deadly player. 3. Right or left. Consistently across multiple games in 2012 as well as 2011, one persistent observation is the simple fact that Bjoern Werner was a more effective, efficient pass rusher for Florida State when allowed to rush the passer from right end. That's just a fact. That's not spin, that's not opinion, it's evidential fact. And yes you can see the video clips to prove it if you like, once I get them whipped into YouTube-able shape. 4. J.J. Swatt. Bjoern Werner is the most consistent defensive end I have seen when it comes to anticipating the quarterback throwing the ball in time so that he can A) try and retrace into the passing lane, and B) get his hands up and jump to try and knock the ball down. Again, this is WELL evidenced. It's not just hot air. Werner had 5 pass breakups in 2011, and 8 pass breakups in 2012. Among DLs, only William Gholston had more in 2012, and he had only 2 of them in 2011. It's like clockwork though. The QB starts to release the ball, Werner reacts to it, gets his hand up and jumps, and he's almost always the only one on the defensive line actually doing it. Carradine didn't have a single pass breakup in 2011 or 2012. Pass breakups by the DL essentially function as 0 yard sacks. 5. Technique. Werner has a pretty wide array of moves but the biggest mistake I see him make over and over again is to be a little too oriented toward outside rushing. He's viciously strong and has great initial quickness off the ball. You'd like to see him do more speed to power. You'd like to see him counter to the inside more often. It's good to note sometimes that he really is still a little raw. 6. Frustration. His biggest enemy is himself. With how incredibly heads up he is as a football player, if he had a motor on him, he could be a lot better than he currently is. You marry the awareness he has with a willingness to run down plays, I think you have the makings of a special player. I presume that one NFL training camp with pressure from the coaches and peer pressure from his teammates will cure him of this notion he seems to have that he can make decisions about when the ball has left his zone and he doesn't need to pursue it anymore. But that doesn't have to be true. He may never be cured of it, or it may be a stamina thing. We don't know. It's the biggest black mark on his game. 7. Athleticism. His athleticism on paper at the Combine compares pretty easily with that of guys like Courtney Upshaw, Tamba Hali, Daryl Tapp, Derrick Morgan, Calvin Pace, Terrell Suggs and interestingly enough a guy everyone seems to be talking about as a potential free agent target, Paul Kruger. Kruger's numbers were actually a little worse than what I had for Werner, overall. Numbers are better than guys like Pernell McPhee, Matt Shaughnessy and Michael Bennett. Not that far behind Jason Pierre-Paul, truth be told. The numbers are mediocre. But they're not in territory that makes you wonder, "when has a guy with these numbers ever succeeded?" It's happened, plenty of times. And for what it's worth, Werner looked good in the Combine drills. Even Mayock admitted to that.
For future consideration, if we're lucky: Report: Jadeveon Clowney ran the 40 in 4.5 seconds COLUMBIA, SC (WIS) - Because Bill Brasky, Chuck Norris, and Vin Diesel myths aren't enough, Jadeveon Clowney continues to add to his myth through a new report from ESPN's Tom Rinaldi that says the junior defensive end's 40-yard dash time is stunning. Rinaldi says the 6'6", 272 pound junior defensive end ran the 40 in just 4.5 seconds during winter workouts. http://www.wistv.com/story/21525801/report-jadeveon-clowney-ran-the-40-in-45-seconds
Ansah. By the way, I stand by that he's not a top 10 pick type. Still believe he should be a 20's to early 2 selection based off of his tape.
1. Competition. - good to hear, CK. I would never have gone to this length. 2. Snap reaction. - TOTALLY agree here. Werner gets into motion before almost anyone else. 3. Right or left. - when I watched Tank, I saw Werner having success from RDE on multiple occasions, including some games where he kept getting to the QB a split second before Tank could (if Werner were a split second slower, Tank Carradine's sack numbers would have been eye-popping). 4. J.J. Swatt. - I'd go further than 0 yard sack, because a tipped ball creates an INT opportunity. 5. Technique. - This may not strictly be technique physically, so much as coaching, so we will see what he is coached to do at the next level. Imaginine him next to Starks... wow.. Starks commands double teams. Werner would be one-on-one with a lot of room to counter inside. 6. Frustration. - Sounds like frustration may be stamina, or low motor once he thinks he is not going to reap the glory... is he a team player or a me player? 7. Athleticism. - Not worried about his combine numbers because what he put on film was compelling, consistent and frequent.
Unless it's via a trade. Send Odrick plus our 2014 2nd rounder to someone for their 1st round pick. Then hope they suck.
In terms of the motor, I just sense a very weird, idiosyncratic mentality about it. If there was a stamina issue he'd not have been able to dig so deep and keep going relentlessly all-out at the end of the NC State game (where even though he put in good effort, FSU suddenly found it couldn't cover anyone and they let up the touchdown). If he had that stamina problem he wouldn't have been able to close out the Miami game with a sack on Seantrel Henderson on a pretty nice and nifty move. I happen to think that the mentality can be fixed or coached. It's a theory. I don't know if it's accurate, though.
I agree with 20's, entirely. Not round two though. Too much upside and not enough red flags for that assessment, imo. I think Ansah's biggest knock are people who will mis-assess and mis-use him as if he has a great first step. He is NOT an edge rusher. He is a strong, disruptive pass rusher who will diagnose plays, improvise, stalk and find ways to make plays for you. If someone takes him, puts his hand i the dirt and expects him to bend the arc for 10+ sakcs a year, they deserve the bust that's coming their way. If they use him as a power end, with amazing ability to track down plays, and frustrated linemen by getting in the way of their blocking angles and being where he 'isn't supposed to be' then they will be thrilled.
Based on certain developments I really do question how much Ezekiel Ansah wants football and how hard he'll work at it. I mean I halfway think one day as a coach I'd find myself scolding him for not staying in his pass rush lane and focusing on containing a mobile quarterback given that the defense called for man coverage on the outsides, and he'll reply "What's man coverage?"
The thing is, there are other DEs who can track down QBs and RBs at the LOS- William Gholston, Devin Taylor, Corny Washington, Margus Hunt come to mind. Ansah is a smoother athlete than Hunt and quicker, but not necessarily the better athlete OR player. The combine tests don't lie- Hunt is a phenomenal athlete. And the game film doesn't lie- Hunt can indeed function as a straight up pass rusher WAY better than Ansah, so can Corny Washington but he's a bit suspect as well. If you want a DE that has outstanding SECONDARY qualities and characteristics like tracking down players at the LOS and batting down passes, take a look at some more of the Gholston and Devin Taylor film- here's Gholstion at :30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqCLp7M5AxY These are 4th round types and Ansah is top 10? That's like drafting a RB top 10 who can block and catch passes but is a crappy runner- subpar at the prime directive. Ansah for sure can move, is a fast and smooth athlete- but as a pass rusher he's totally underwhelming, I mean awful, and that's the bottom line. And that pretty much sums up Ansah. Nice story with the kid, but I just saw him in a mock this morning at #2 overall- freaking ridiculous, and imo he's now easily the most overrated player in the draft.
I don't have concerns about Ansah's dedication. And Jim, the combine can lie. As can the tape, depending on who is studying it.
The best player I have seen for next year, right now, is Teddy Bridgewater. I've seen Clowney and he's awesome but I'd take Bridgewater right now if I had the top pick and had to decide between the two.
There was quite some debate a few days ago as to whether Ansah not training specifically for the combine and relying more on his natural ability was an indictment of his dedication. He claimed, through his agent, the combine was the first time he ever ran a 40 yd dash for time, or did the vertical jump.
The combine lies every year as per projecting actual ability, one of this year's top candidates imo is Cornelious Washington, who certainly looks the part and tested well. Look at the game film and another story emerges- not an instinctive or productive player. But he played well at the Senior Bowl game and practices- the search for the truth continues. As to Hunt, the jury is out as per his ability, but my point as per the combine as that it showed what an elite athlete he is, especially for a man of his size. Ansah- you better not need another pass rusher if you draft him high, bottom line. Hunt is flawed as well, but a way better pass rusher. Also, if a football player played for a couple of months, much less a couple of years and didn't know what a 3 point stance was a la Ansah, I'd be concerned. I went into the whole topic of Ansah really wanting to like him a few months ago, but the tape doesn't lie- he's a brutally incompetent pass rusher, bad fit for us. Odrick is better for us right now than Ansah, and will be even more so if he drops 20 lbs as planned. If you want a dynamic player to track down players at the LOS with tremendous closing speed draft Alec Ogletree imo. Bridgewater- I don;t know much, but he certainly looks the part and threw some absolute accurate lasers when I saw him play last year, compelling talent.
