I never had the impression that Ireland and Philbin were in the race for Tavon Austin. I think that was a figment of the media and fans. I think they had 4 or 5 guys they may have taken at 12 and Austin may have been one of them, but not the first option. They had just spent a lot of money on Hartline, Wallace and Gibson. Bess was clearly the #4 guy of the WR group. Bess worst attribute was his inability in the red zone. Gibson is a little bigger and faster/quicker and better in the red zone. Upgrading the #3 guy is not a bad thing. How many times will there be 4 WRs, even in this offense ?? GB doesn't run 4 WRs often. Especially with Keller being added and Miller possibly taking on some of the passing game ?? Bess was simply expendable due to his expiring contract and cap hit. So they enhanced their draft by moving him out... Slot isn't the place to be worried... Bess's situation reminds me of Samson Satele a few years back. He was the arguably the best option on the OL save for Carey (at that time) and developed somewhat of a fan following, but he was an just an adequate player at his position, nothing more. Bess is in the same place....He's been important to us in the past, but he's just not one of our top 3 WRs now...
So, you think they'd have traded up for someone other than Jordan ? IDK, I just had the impression they'd felt they spent enough on WR this offseason. I still think Austin was a media ruse, not how they wanted to spend even more resources...We can speculate, but it's just that.
Maybe I missed that ?? Sorry, I'm not sure I believe it, even if they did say it... A lot of things could have happened in the draft for us to really be in a position to draft Austin, but it didn't happen. I think you look at Austin only if he falls to the right spot. Do you think they look at Austin over Eiffert ? I don't... Doesn't matter now, of course, but I still don't see a reason to be worried about the slot position in this offense. If you look at GBs WRs, they are all mostly interchangeable...Nelson, Driver, Jennings...none you'd really describe as a slot guy (in the mold of say Austin or Bess would fill)... What has been different is the use of TEs and backs in the passing game and we have some flexibility that we haven't had in the past in that regard...
If you go back and listen to Philbin's press conference at the owner's meetings, he touches on this subject. He makes it pretty clear that Wallace, Hartline, and Gibson can all play inside and out. He had to backtrack and include mentioning Bess, he was clearly an afterthought. IMO its obvious that they don't want WRs that can only play in the slot. Need to play multiple roles.
It is my opinion that Bess's fate was sealed during the Buffalo game. There were three corner routes that Bess ran that he had little chance to actually make the catch. The throws had to be perfect because he is both to slow and too short to run that route effectively.
WADR, I think you're telling yourself it wasn't true so you can justify what you previously thought. There'd be no reason for them or Darlington to lie about it. They wanted Austin and were willing to move up for him, but they didn't want to go past 6ish, because they felt like his value wasn't high enough for the cost of the sixth and whatever it cost to move up that far. Dion was always number 1 on their list though, and they sprang into action when he wasn't one of the first two and before Philly had a chance.
.... and also said they didn't expect they'd have a chance in heck to land Jordan going in, so Austin was pretty much plan A based on reasonable expectations.
He's saying it doesn't matter because Gibson doesn't play in the Slot. He's worried about the slot position itself, something Gibson doesn't play, according to him. What he wrote makes sense.
I'm aware of what he said. Neither of you are aware of what you both are actually saying however. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
You can't think of it like that. How many games did we lose by 6 or less? 4 extra TDs = 0 more wins up to 4 possibly. Depending on which game they came in. I like how we only compare the most recent season by the way. Bess has been a good performer. His career and Gibson's have been remarkably similar. I like Gibson, and thought Bess was a bit overrated by Miami fans. Looking at utilization rates they both caught similar rates last year, but Gibson in 2011 was horrid at 50%. But that could be an anomaly. Gibson had a drop rate of 3.66% last year which is real good (almost 10% in 2011, confirming his bad season), vs. Bess at over 5% which is solid.
I'm not saying anything. You laughed at him, but I was pointing out his argument, which should be discussed, not laughed at. He wasn't saying it doesn't matter in the NFL, or in general which is the better receiver. He was saying for the purpose of this thread, that HE started, it doesn't matter. Because it's not what he's trying to discuss. I don't agree with his position, and I'm not worried about it. I like Gibson. But you come into his thread, you should at least get his arguments in order before you debunk them.
No, what you did was take his argument to be the sum total of the one specific post I quoted and laughed at. You either refuse or neglected to consider his argument might just be more than that one post.
I'm not going to go tit for tat here, but it was the OP, then your comparison of stats, and his reply to your comparison of the two WRs. At that point in time there were no other posts. That's what I considered. Anyway, let's not derail it. I get his point, I disagree, let's move on. I like Gibson, and while we loved Bess as our 3rd down crutch let's hope this corps doesn't get us into many of those situations. We have backs, non Slot WRs, TE's who can fulfill Bess' role.
interesting point, one thing I notice about that Green Bay offense and the west coast offense is the continuation of the route, it seems like the route design leads to angles that score tds, stressing the importance of catch and run, Bess was not a catch and run type receiver ya know, more of a comeback guy..seems as though the skillset just didnt fit.
I actually think their board was the same as mine, Dion, Tavon/Eifert, Richardson.. If the deal wasn't so good for Dion I think Eifert would of been the pick..all three are incredible prospects, glad that Ireland recognized the three best.
Solid points on both sides of the argument. I'm really happy that Bess got a 3 yr. deal. He could be any team's Troy Brown, just solid and dependable as hell. Cleveland made a smart move, but he just didn't fit Philbin's mold... I'll still root for Bess. How could you not?
I'm curious how the slot thing plays out because on paper it's a little unclear I think. Brian Hartline has the most experience in the slot, but the stuff he does really well is outside-specific. He's at his best doing comebacks and working the sidelines. Mike Wallace I'm not sure would be a really prolific slot guy either. I hope they'll employ some of the motion tricks Bruce Arians did with him in Pittsburgh, which I think technically would make him a slot guy at times, but that isn't really "slot" stuff. I'm wondering if I don't think they consider Armon Binns the guy there for the most part, supplemented with the other wide receivers and then split tight ends. Dustin Keller as was mentioned, but Charles Clay last year was like 50% slot last year and Dion Sims I think makes it more likely they use a split tight end in 2-TE formations.
Whenever I hear talk of Hartline in the slot, I have images of him getting crushed in the ribs from both sides, while the ball ever so gently flies out of his arms..Brian Hartline has shown to me that he will put the ball on the turf on a physical tackle, and that matches up with his strength level and physique..I don't know how much he played in the slot last year but I'd like to keep it around the same this year.
If Joe Philbin is truly aiming at not having any receivers he puts in the slot more often than others, then that would be a departure from what he did in Green Bay. Until we see it happen, I regard it as just talk. In Green Bay in 2011, Jordy Nelson and James Jones took approximately 9% of their snaps from the slot while Donald Driver and Randall Cobb took 65% of their snaps from the slot, and Greg Jennings took 50% of his snaps from the slot. James Jones has never had more than 7 to 9% of his snaps come from the slot, though admittedly Jordy Nelson had 40% of his snaps come from the slot in 2010 before he broke out (but a very low percentage every other year). Brian Hartline took up to a quarter of his snaps from the slot in 2009 and 2010 but didn't really produce well there at all. He's no good after the catch, which is a must for the slot. In his career Hartline has produced 216 yards on 32 attempts and 219 snaps from the slot. Those are bad numbers. Brandon Gibson has been outside-only for most of his career as well, for much the same reason as Brian Hartline. In his career Gibson has produced 198 yards on 26 attempts and 175 snaps in the slot. Those are bad numbers. Mike Wallace on the other hand can produce from the slot. He's produced 457 yards on 41 attempts and 331 snaps from the slot. He's also produced 7 touchdowns from there. The yards per snap is not great but the yards per attempt is really good. I think they ran him vertically from the slot and you're only going to find the right opportunity to throw that so many times, but it can do some things to the defense that scares them. Still, Wallace only took 16% of his snaps from the slot in his career at Pittsburgh. I don't think that's coincidental. I think you want to keep him mostly on the outside. Overall the explanation that the Dolphins want guys like Wallace, Hartline and Gibson to go in the slot as much as the outside...I find to be disingenuous until we see it on the field. And if we see it on the field, I find it to be misguided until we see it WORK on the field. And if we see it WORK on the field, then obviously I'll have been wrong. The BETTER explanation to me is that the Dolphins want to get their tight ends Dustin Keller, Charles Clay and Michael Egnew on the field more often, and those guys are best used when detached from the line (i.e. in the slot). They drafted Dion Sims so that they'll be able to put an on the line guy on the field when they need one, but I think they're going to use Keller, Clay and Egnew to take up a lot of those slot snaps (303 of them) that Davone Bess took a year ago. The best slot WIDE RECEIVERS the Dolphins have on roster are Mike Wallace (by virtue of his just being overall talented), Marcus Thigpen, Chad Bumphis and Rishard Matthews, FWIW. I expect Thigpen and Matthews to also share in some of the leavings from Bess being traded. Perhaps Bumphis as well.
I'm not "worried" about the slot "position" but I am puzzled by what the Dolphins have done there. Multiple seemingly reliable sources said Austin was in the Top 3 on the Dolphins' board and that there was interest in going up to get him. That suggests that Dolphins had an appreciation for what a dynamic slot guy could do and an interest in doing it. But then we trade Bess and don't really replace him, even though we had several opportunities to draft guys who would have at least been interesting options for the slot. While some denigrate slot receivers, I think they may be the most important receivers because they are easy to get the ball to, require little pass proection and can be virtually uncoverable. I think the team is making a mistake in not bringing in short area quickness guy with some RAC ability to round out this receiving corps.
On paper Hartline transitions quite well to the slot. Good acceleration off the line (1.50 ten yard time), an outstanding 3 cone drill (6.65) that shows up in his ability to get in and out of breaks quickly and run sharp routes, good hands, and the potential to become a great option route receiver b/c of his intelligence and understanding of the game/coverage. Plus, from the slot he's more of a vertical threat when mismatched on linebackers than on the perimeter vs corners. I wouldn't mind having him inside next to Wallace to overload the free safety's responsibilities and create extra opportunity for Wallace, or at least limit the coverage placed on him. Rishard Matthews has the physical skill set to play inside, too. He moves well for a 215 pounder.
I'll disagree with you here just based on some physical liabilities, I think he would take a beating in there and consequently because of his lack of physicality have some issues with ball control.
neither are Hartline or Gibson. that's my whole point, Bess is limited, not just athletically but obviously his size as well, which is why I had no problem trading him, as long as they replaced him with a RAC guy, which they didn't. They tried to with Austin and Boyce.
This is why I call your stance into question. If we didn't trade Bess you never would have made this thread, but you turn around an admit that Bess was not really good in the slot either.
IMO with Hartline in the slot you can give him more opportunity to run routes heading upfield with greater potential for RAC, stuff we didn't see with Bess. Slants vs man coverage and subsequently splitting defenders, posts vs Cover 2, skinny posts vs Cover 3, corner routes, 2 verticals on the same side with he & Wallace, all of which Bess couldn't offer us.
True, though Gibson is a bit better with his long speed, Wallace is, Keller is, Miller is nice out of the backfield..I would of added a receiver Instead of Davis but we'll see who becomes the better players between Wheaton, Patton, Swope, or Davis..I really like our first three picks.
I'm inclined to agree with DJ here. First and foremost the slot is a run after catch position, IMO. You're catching the ball short and running with the football after the catch. Slot receivers on average seem to be given the ball at least a yard or perhaps even two yards on average closer to the line of scrimmage than perimeter guys. They have to make up for that with run after catch. Brian Hartline is not a good RAC guy and so I don't think he makes a very good slot. I don't think he's physical enough.
I disagree with the notion that Davone Bess was not a catch and run kind of guy. That's just not the case. He very much is. Enough to be a valid slot receiver. He consistently ranked about 50th percentile in yards after catch. And when you're working the slot, that's not always easy.
true, I do agree that Bess is good at temporary escape and jukin for some needed yardage, I was really just referring to long tds or routes where you need more speed to get to the top of it without sacrificing timing.
Hartline doesn't have to break tackles or juke defenders to contribute some YAC plays. He can be a catch and run guy b/c he has the initial acceleration to split defenders if you put him in the slot and get him the ball while moving upfield.
I wouldn't want Hartline as a permanent slot guy and wouldn't want to be throwing him WR screens from the position, but with Wallace now on the perimeter I feel schematically lining Brian lining up next to him could be productive.
Davone Bess is a punt returner. Punt returners are almost to a man run after catch guys. It's part of their very being. But as a punt returner, Bess was a consistent guy that could get you that 9 or 10 yards like clockwork (when he wasn't calling for fair catch), but could never break the big one. That's exactly who he was as a slot receiver. Consistent 4 or 5 yards after the catch, but doesn't break anything big.
I'd rather line Dustin Keller up next to him. Or Marcus Thigpen. Or Rishard Matthews. Or Charles Clay. Or Chad Bumphis. Or even Michael Egnew. The order of my preference for players in the slot would probably look pretty close to that.
Matthews would be my first choice from a traditional standpoint, but I don't think any of them are as vertically capable from the slot as Hartline, which is why I'd like to use a rotation of bodies in the slot. 2 TEs, Thigpen like you mentioned, Matthews, Hartline, and obviously Gibson, too. They all bring something unique to the table.
Dustin Keller runs just as fast as Brian Hartline, vertically. If not faster. Overrating vertical ability. Useful when a guy has actually outstanding vertical ability (e.g. Josh Gordon). But when it's mediocre, it's not important. It's way too easy to guard. A slot player almost by definition has an umbrella on top of him.
