which is great and should open up opportunities for Hartline with Keller to one side of him & Wallace the other. That umbrella also has to worry about Wallace next to him and Keller inside opposite. I'm not just talking about downfield routes but slants, too, which he can run and does have the initial burst to turn into chunk yardage, especially if he's mismatched vs a linebacker or safety. Stuff like in the plays below. 3:23 3:43 3:50 [video=youtube;NzkFONkaQUY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzkFONkaQUY[/video] [video=youtube;N9MCecVQ7oY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9MCecVQ7oY[/video]
For me Todd the slot is about physicality, foot quickness, a compact build with natural strength, Harts game is predicated on deception, that boundary out there allows him space to get off the line and set up his moves downfield, I think if you take him out of that element and throw him in tight quarters your not using Hartlines skillset correctly..
now that we have Wallace & Gibson capable of lining up outside, we can actually run verticals from the inside positions (slot & TE) to attack specific coverages and stress the safeties, which we couldn't do last year with Bess & Fasano.
This is a valid viewpoint, but it looks like they prefer multiplicity and unpredictability before YAC.
Late to the conversation, but I think Keller will make up for the Bess loss. Bess was certainly dependable, but I think Keller is not far behind. I also think Binns and Matthews could feature quite nicely when spelling Gibson/Hartline in the middle of the field.
I'm going to ask a silly question so excuse my ignorance, but why can't Hartline play inside? He's seems to be a good fit there...more quick than fast, relaible hands, and big enough to get off press coverage from nickelbacks.
I respectfully disagree Deej. In the slot he'll often be facing off coverage, and he has great quickness and lateral ability over the first 15 yards to use to his advantage. He doesn't have to physically break tackles from the slot to pick up RAC b/c he can use his initial burst to split defenders. If you wanna get him some more TDs then throw him some quick slants from the slot with safeties now having to also be worried about Wallace & Keller IMO. I also disagree about his game being predicated on deception; I feel the deception occurs as a result of his ability off the line and over the first 10-15 yards b/c he has great acceleration and can move well laterally which defenders have to be prepared for. That's what initially sets his game up and allows him to utilize his deceptiveness. That same acceleration & lateral ability/speed would do him well in a part time slot role. I mean, if he's in the slot you're intending to play him to his strengths there. I'm not gonna put him in the slot and use him like Bess or throw him screens. He's not a bum from the slot; there are scenarios where he's actually a plus receiver there, and that's how I'm talking about using him. I'm not talking about making him a permanent slot receiver BTW. For me the slot is about creating and taking advantages of mismatches, and there are times where Hartline will offer that independent of specific positional parameters such as physicality, strength, and a compact nature. Brandon Marshall & Calvin Johnson line up in the slot occasionally; they're not compact. Austin Collie was quite effective in a similar type role in Indy, and he's of comparable stature to Hartline at 6'1, 200, and ran a 1.50 ten yard split with a 6.78 3 cone (great time but actually slower than Hartline's blistering 6.65). I understand you want a slot guy to X, Y, Z traits to him, but that's kinda like crying over spilled milk b/c we don't have a guy like that. If we did we wouldn't be having this discussion right now and he'd be our primary slot receiver; he'd be Tavon Austin. So we have to make do with what we have unfortunately which likely means a bevy of guys sharing duties there.
If you read up you'll see some answers to this. As I've said a couple of times already a slot receiver position is first and foremost a run after catch position. That's his biggest weakness as a receiver.
it isn't a weakness if you can get him the ball while he's moving up field and can use his lateral speed to split defenders, which is where Hartline's best RAC ability comes from. He can execute this better from the slot where the play is quicker to develop than on the perimeter. It's something Bess never offered us.
Meh, I don't think that's as big of an issue. Guys like Welker and Amendola aren't YAC demons or anything, they're adequate in that respect. Brandon Stokely and Troy Brown made a career out of the slot and they were both marginal with the ball in their hands. I think Hartline could do wonders for you guys in the slot but that's just me. He understands the little nuances of positioning and winning in short areas that could serve him well inside.
It's not just about the slot, it's also about Davone Bess' role in the offense. You can be on the perimeter and still play the same role. You can also be the outermost receiver on your side but still lined up inside the numbers, which is still a three-way go position, which is what makes being a slot receiver what it is for the most part. The question is whether you see Brian Hartline assuming Davone Bess' role and doing much with it. Tell me here, do you see Brian Hartline making this catch, making the defender miss and running for the 1st down? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lxgjPED1Us&feature=player_detailpage#t=33s Can you count on Brian Hartline to turn this kind of catch into a 1st down on 3rd & 7? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lxgjPED1Us&feature=player_detailpage#t=101s Do you see Brian Hartline running after the catch like this after catching the ball short from a typical slot out route? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lxgjPED1Us&feature=player_detailpage#t=113s Does Brian Hartline convert this catch into a 1st down? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lxgjPED1Us&feature=player_detailpage#t=136s Do we convert this 3rd & 11 against the Patriots, if Brian Hartline is being asked to run after the catch like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lxgjPED1Us&feature=player_detailpage#t=143s Would Brian Hartline catch this underneath pass and bring it for a 1st down? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lxgjPED1Us&feature=player_detailpage#t=229s Does he convert this into a 1st down, on 3rd & 7? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lxgjPED1Us&feature=player_detailpage#t=260s I just think DJ has the right of this. What we asked Davone Bess to do here over the years as a slot, I don't see Brian Hartline doing it. Most of these catches, history's shown that Hartline would just fall to the ground after he caught it, or try and make a move on the closing defender and end up just diving forward for as much as he can because he doesn't have the leg strength to cut like this. Many of these routes, I doubt Hartline even has the leg strength to run them and get open as effectively as Bess.
Bottom line: quite often we'll likely see Wallace, Hartline, and Gibson on the field together. Someone will be lined up inside, and Hartline will be that someone on more than one occasion. When he's there he will be used to his strengths, so all this talk about him being bad at this or that shouldn't apply b/c we won't be using him in ways he's not best suited for. If you're playing Brian in the slot it's to create or take advantage of specific matchups, and I strongly disagree with any notion of him being incapable of such.
I think most receivers in the league can run a slant, what I'm most worried about is impact and strength, I think in the slot your opening the door to more impactful contact and more attention on the player, I don't think Hartlines body or strength is up to par as it relates to taking serious punishment, balance in that congested area, and holding on to the football..I would be afraid of the knockout hit on the guy..I understand your point about being somewhat interchangeable and unpredictable, but I feel like his skillset has demonstrated what it's good at, and the perimeter is where i see him being most effective..Gibson or Matthews seem to have more stability in their frame, good hands and would be better suited.
I think if your offense is ok with what Bess does in terms of his route tree, then your getting a good clutch player, but it seems to me the route tree that he can run is what became the concern relative to what Sherman has in mind, I'm really not sure if Gibson is the better player, we'll have to wait for preseason on that to see if the routes change in this years offense..
why would we care to see Hartline assuming Bess' role? They're different players. I'd care to see Hartline assume his own specific role in the slot tailored to his specific skill set, not Bess's. You listed a bunch of clips of things Bess can do that Hartline can't, but that can be reversed as well b/c there's plenty Hartline can do from the slot that Bess can't, and in those ways is how Hartline should be used. You play him to his strengths, not to Bess's, and to pretend he doesn't have any is unfair b/c he offers a skill set from the slot in 3+ WR formations that no one else does when Wallace & Keller are reserved to the perimeter and TE respectively. I'd run slants, corner routes, seam routes, speed outs, go routes, and any of the other stuff the slow and shorter Bess can't reliably offer. When you want to execute plays like your above Bess videos, then have someone else in the slot on those plays b/c Brian obviously won't be there full time.
You don't have legitimate concern about his ability to take punishment inside? It's pretty rough in there, and I don't think regardless of his shuttle times he reacts after the catch as quickly and explosively as a Davone Bess.
You're underselling all of those guys' run after catch skills by a pretty wide margin. Of the guys you named, only Brandon Stokley is not also a standout punt returner. In fact, two of the guys you named are among the NFL's all time leaders in punt return yardage. Danny Amendola has averaged 10.5 yards per return on 89 punt returns in his career, and in college he returned 116 punts for 1283 yards which is an 11.1 yard per return average. He's marginal with the football in his hands? Wes Welker returned 152 punts for 1761 yards in college at Texas Tech. In the NFL he's returned 241 punts for 2417 yards. He's marginal with the ball in his hands? At Marshall, Troy Brown led all of Division 1-AA in both punt and kick return average. In the NFL, he returned 252 punts for 2625 yards. Marginal with the football in his hands? The difference between the perimeter and the slot is that on the perimeter you're often asked to get open, and as a result of your getting open you end up with an opportunity to run after the catch. But the run after the catch opportunity is more predicated on how well you got open. In the slot, you're already for the most part schemed open by all the spacing you have underneath and the three-way go that you have, and from there you've got to make your mark on the play by how well you transition to running after the catch and are able to keep the defense from properly putting a lid on you. In the slot, you're going to catch something like 65% of all the passes thrown your way, which is 6% higher than the average number on the perimeter. Getting OPEN is less of a problem. It's more about what you do after the catch. That's why the NFL likes punt returners for the slot. It's not a coincidence that most of the guys you just named as your epitome of a slot receiver, are not just punt returners in their career, but big time standout punt returners.
Outside of Wallace, the guy with the best capability of taking a slant to the house from the slot is Hartline b/c he has the best combination of acceleration & lateral speed at WR/TE. 1.50 ten yard + 6.65 3 cone just about translates to quick slant paradise (those times are better than Victor Cruz and comparable to Percy Harvin's by the way). He doesn't need strength; doesn't need to take a hit; just needs to get a step on his man and split the defense, and then from there it's however long it takes for him to be chased down from behind unless he's already in the endzone. Likewise, if he's running a seam route, post, corner, etc, I'm not sure why there's concern for physicality & punishment when he'll likely be receiving a free release and having rules protecting him from being smacked around after 5 yards.
I disagree. IMO it expands the playbook by allowing Hartline to add an extra dimension to the slot that Bess unfortunately couldn't; nobody's saying those other guys you mentioned can't contribute in a traditional slot receiver role for the majority of the time when Hartline is on the outside. Brian is still the starting perimeter receiver, so it's not like I'm talking about moving him to the slot full time to where we're forced to take the good with the bad. I'm talking about only playing him there when we know it's to our advantage and involves playing him to his strengths. I wouldn't think about choosing Hartline over Thigpen for a wide receiver screen, nor would I want him operating in tight space over Matthews, and I'm not talking about ditching 2 tight end formations either; I'm merely talking about complimenting it all b/c there are certain matchups/situations that do play to Hartline's advantage in the slot.
Who do you see potentially with that ability that is on the roster right now? Someone like Bumphis? Gibson? Collins?
Exactly.... and, outside of Wallace, who has the best acceleration & lateral speed at WR/TE to split a defense and make something after the catch? It's Hartline.
the funny thing is everyone acts like the team is content with the current group of receivers but seeing as how they were targeting Tavon Austin in the 1st and after missing out on him wanted Boyce in the 4th, i don't think that's the case.
I think the problem may be that many people when they think "slot WR" they automatically think small guy who is quick. And that may be true in some cases, but to look at our WR group and claim we need to fill the slot role is a little absurd IMO.
well hopefully Mathews shows us something because if we're relying on Hartline's to be our 2nd best playmaker then that's not too encouraging.
1) i wanted to add RAC receivers to the offense. we only added 1. if we kept Bess I still would have made this post because having Bess, Gibson, and Hartline is redundant, which is why Bess was moved in the first place, but the whole point was to add another guy either before or after trading Bess, Miami tried, but failed. that's the reason I made this thread. 2. i never said Bess wasn't a good slot receiver, he was, labeling him as limited doesn't mean he sucked dude.
Going by what you started the thread, it seems that those are two different points. It would have been nice to have more RAC receivers. I have hope that Mathews is one. He looked like one in college and showed some promise last season. There is Bumpis, who could be one. I am interested in Thigpen, he looks like he would be a good RAC receiver if he is used more as a receiver.
I believe the Dolphins will regret trading Bess. He is one of the best slot receivers in the NFL. If they were so interested in Gibson, they should have just signed him and let Hartline go in free agency. I believe Gibson does the same things Hartline does, but neither Hartline or Gibson can work out of the slot position as effectively as Bess. I think Bess will go to the Browns and still remain one of the top slot receivers in the NFL. I expect him to have a big game against the Dolphins when the two teams meet in the first game of the regular season. The last time the Dolphins traded a slot receiver to another team, he ended up becoming one of the best receiver in the NFL and the go to receiver for Tom Brady. I don't know if Bess will have the same numbers in Cleveland, Welker had in New England, but it won't surprise me if many Dolphins fans aren't questioning why the Dolphins traded Bess after the 2013 season is over. Just as they questioned the trade of Welker to the Patriots after realizing what a mistake it was to trade Welker in the first place.
Why would they regret trading a player they don't want to use? They obvious have a plan to use Hartline, while having zero plans for Bess. He was going to get paid $3 million to ride the bench.
Not sure if that was the game, but yeah I remember some routes he ran split out where there was really so shot. He is not the athlete like Steve Smith, or good speed. He just didn't make the cut, great player but not what we are looking for
From the perspective of getting the three best receivers on the field at the same time then it's probably a good idea to figure who is the best of the three playing inside, in that context I can see your point..He may not get smacked after five yards, but within that five yards there usually is a hell of a lot more contact that what you deal with out on the perimeter, sometimes multiple defenders within that five yards will take their shots, some ride ya the whole way horizontally, idk, basically I think that in the slot, with the underneath stuff, I think it's more of the physical attributes that get you open, quickness out of the breaks, stop and start agility, I just don't see those things being Harts strength..the cone and shuttle times interest me and make me question my evaluation a little, but it always comes back to physicality for me with him, I think build and strength is important because of the frequency and impact of the contact that happens in those areas..out on the perimeter your mostly looking at arm tackles.
That's a little difficult when he wasn't one of the top slot receivers to begin with. Top 27 year old slot receivers don't get traded for a 5th & swap of 4ths, and then have the other team ask for a 7th in return.
How are we defining "slot" in this conversation, and are we saying that "slot" is attached to a certain route tree?
