Hickey And Wallace Had A Sit Down To Discuss Future

And we've finally arrived at the reason why Wallace was a mere 3rd-round pick despite his decent size, 20+ yards per catch as a senior in college, 40-inch vertical jump, and 4.33 40 time.

Essentially there was once in Wallace's career that exactly the right mixture of ingredients was present for him to play like a 1st-round pick, and when those ingredients have been absent (in both Pittsburgh and Miami) he's played like the 3rd-rounder he indeed was.

 

Now you are just being very "Speedy"

 

Do you understand sarcasm? Honest question. I used a joke, to make a point. The point being, stop reading stuff into my posts that isn't there. I really don't go around writing posts, with hidden meaning designed into them. I asked a guy who he would prefer over Tannehill, and further asked how he would handle a new QB if we drafted one. You turned that into me saying something else, what that something else was, I don't really know.

 

So you asked him that question for what reason exactly? So you could rip apart ANY answer he replied with.

If he said Miami should package Ryan and move up to get Winston/MM you would've spun it, if he replied lets trade for Andrew Luck you would've claimed Luck wouldn't do much better, if he would've said trade for Russel Wilson you would've ignored all his accomplishments as well and said "if only Ryan had that Seattle Defense!"

There was no right answer you were trying to get from his response and that's obvious. Nothing he replied with would've gotten anything but a further "If ryan had ----"

Just saying, be honest.

 

Tannehill and Wallace seem to be two of the few guys on offense who are doing their part, out of 11-13. Theyre being blamed for deficiencies elsewhere on the team. If the OL could protect Tannehillbetter he'd have more time to throw accurately to Wallace, who'd have more time to work downfield. If our other WRs and run game were more of a threat Wallace would see more favorable coverages. Team game. Trying to pick out which individual is responsible for entire facets of the offense is for the birds.

 

I think he's played better than a typical 3rd, but he's just overpaid and we don't seem to be taking advantage of his particular skillset all that well. On the other hand, the thing about deep passes is that they are inherently very hit-or-miss and involve very small sample sizes. The home run potential is there and it may very well be that we revert to the mean in connecting on those and suddenly start hitting on a bunch of them. When Ray Allen starts a series hitting just 3 of his first 15 3-pt shots, you can reasonably expect that given time he'll up around 40%+ and that might very well come about by him hitting 7 of his next 10. The same could be true of the Tannehill/Wallace connection.

 

Absolutely false. I would love to know who he would like to have. I'd like to know what his expectations would be for a rookie QB, if we drafted someone that he wanted. It's not realistic to advocate trading for Russell Wilson or Andrew Luck, they aren't available. I didn't ask for a Madden trade. However, that being said, is it not a reasonable question to ask someone, if Wilson came to Miami, and had similar results, would they then want to dump Wilson in favor of someone else? I don't see anyone disputing that Luck is far and away a better, more polished QB right now.

I wasn't attempting to bait him. I legitimately wonder what he wants. He posts all the time about how much Tannehill sucks, but never gives any input for discussion around who exactly he would like. Again, please stop reading into my posts. Seriously, there is nothing there. You can pretty much take my posts at face value. Perhaps if you just read what I wrote, and didn't try to turn every one of my posts into some troll/bait post, we wouldn't have most of the issues we seem to have with each other.

Maybe you're confusing my intentions with your own?

 

Tell me you guys aren't ignoring the fact that hitting speeding Wallace is the same as hitting a speeding Hartline. Wallace is too fast for Tannehill is what it boils down to. That's neither of their faults, but if you were to assign blame you'd blame Tanny for not being able to take advantage of that and Wallace for not bailing out his inaccurate qb more.

But what do you want Wallace to do, run at half speed so Tanny can hit him?

 

Well, a receiver isn't supposed to be running at a set rate on a set route with no ability to change or adjust. The faster WR should be easier to hit because his separation gives more room for error. Tannehill has plenty of arm to get it to and often past Wallace, so it's not really that Wallace is too fast for him. Many of the misses have been overthrows or Wallace failing to keep running to track it down.

IMO, Tannehill is just more comfortable and better at the 25-32 past the LOS yard soft touch pass than the 45 yard heave. Many QBs are. But with Wallace we more often try for the 45 yd heave; whereas, with other guys, like Clay or Hartline, we go for the 25-32 yarder.

 

I can't imagine a scenario where you was asking that without planning on challenging any answer, but I suppose I could be wrong.

 

I've seen many passes that allow the db to catch up because Wallace had to hold up. Double edge sword. Overthrow and no chance to make the pass at all. Underthrow and you give your guy a chance but then the DB now can Int the ball as well.

 

Was he too fast for Roethlisberger in 2012, in their fourth year together?

 

CLEARLY???

When did I ever say that? I only said that RT17's deep ball sucks. And it does. As for this draft? I don't like any of the QB's.

 

My apololgies. I mistook this:

to mean that you feel he is garbage.

 

And that might be because that's when a guy who is all speed and comparatively little route-running has finally broken open.

When a 4.33 guy who can't shake CBs with route-running is going up against a 4.4 CB, it may take him 30 or 40 yards to get separation. Certainly no one thinks Wallace is blowing NFL CBs away with speed right off the line of scrimmage.

And these were typically the long, downfield passes we saw him catch with Roethlisberger. Roethlisberger shakes off a guy or two behind the line, extends the play, and by then Wallace has not only gotten separation from the CB, but has also changed his route in response to the QB pressure and left the CB even further behind.

That sort of thing isn't happening in Miami's timing passing offense, and it didn't happen in Pittsburgh when they implemented something similar in 2012.

 

I have also seen passes where Tannehill threw it well and Wallace slowed down for some reason or dropped it or was tripped up on purpose(well one).

They are very low percentage passes and if they hit their next three, all of a sudden they will be average.

The problem between Wallace and Tannehill is that they are not working well together on these plays. Coupled with the offense not being well designed for these plays to work.

 

Tell me you don't think that makes sense from a physics standpoint.

Mike Wallace finished his college 40 yard dash approximately .19 seconds faster than Brian Hartline. Even at the end of it, the distance between them would not represent any degree of difficulty in terms of one being easier to throw to, the distance would be a matter of what, like two yards?

 

That tired argument again?

Go check Ben, Browns and Wallace's numbers from 2011 and then 2012. Let me guess, Wallace caused Browns ypa to dip 25% too.

If you can't see Haley was the problem in 2012 than your eyes are deceiving you.

 

It sounds like we're agreeing that Wallace needs a certain kind of offense to thrive.

 

I agree with that. A guy like Hartline or one who does it through guile, moves and route running creates his separation almost instantly when he makes that move and that usually happens around 10-15 yards downfield regardless of how deep the CB is playing at the snap. Wallace's separation happens much later, probably around the 25-30 yd mark. And that is part of why I don't think Wallace is the best fit here even for that deep threat role. And it's not that I don't think he's a good player. He's good. Not great or elite, but good. And he could be a great fit elsewhere; I just don't think he's a great fit here.

 

Were they running with pads on? If you're trying to tell me on the field there ain't much difference between Hartline and Wallace in regards to speed we'll end right there because you're clearly allowing personal feelings to bias your judgment.

Wallace isn't one of the fastest guys in the league because he's two yards ahead of Hartline on the field after 40 yards. Ronnie Brown ran a 4.43 so he'd be only one yard behind Wallace on the field after 40? Don't think so.

 

And this is why Wallace is frustrated, because he's finding himself fairly often wide open 30 or 40 yards downfield at the end of the play, but by then Tannehill, having seen Wallace only stride-for-stride with the CB at the 10 to 15 yard mark, has moved on to the next guy in his progression.

Again, a timing offense, with a "non-timing" receiver in terms of his skills.

 

I've been saying that. He needs a good QB and an offense that isn't dink and dunk. There was a game in 2012 where Ben's passes traveled an average distance of single digits. This is why Ben HATED Haley.

Lazor could be that offense. But guess what Lazor removed this year because he left Tannehill was no good at it? The deep ball.

Guess who effusively praised Wallace all year in the press? Lazor. Guess who Lazor criticized a few times, sometimes very bluntly? Tannehill.

Lazor doesn't want to dink and dunk. He had to adjust to that however.

 

Agreed, it could be remedied a little if Tannehill had faith that even if Wallace is stride-for-stride with the CB at the 15 yard park, we will be a yard or two past him at the 35-40 yard mark. You can't necessarily wait until the WR is open on a pass that will be in the air for 1.5-2 seconds, you have to anticipate that he will be open by the time the ball gets there. Sometimes you just have to let it rip.

 

Exactly this. Last year's Carolina TD pass to Wallace illustrates this. The end result was good, TD, but it could have been worse.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/0ap2000000287545/QB-Tannehill-to-WR-Wallace-53-yd-pass-TD

That video shows everything you need to know about the disconnect. Wallace is wide open, and very very quickly I might add. Tannehill you notice, is staring down Wallace after he starts what looks like a designed roll out. But he takes how many steps before releasing it? The ball is underthrown which allows the DB to close (but luckily Wallace tracks and adjusts) . Starting at 40 seconds you can see how fast he is open yet Tannehill seemed hesitant to launch it. You can even hear the announcer say it was a bad throw and it was all Wallace. At :48 you see at which point Tannehill decides to let it go, and it is several seconds after he was already open. I grant that it could be just a really bad play design but I don't see why as soon as Tanny sees he has a step, start his throw. There was no pass rusher in front or near him. The throw will be easier because Wallace isn't as far down the field.

Compared to Ben hitting him

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d82366a57/Roethlisberger-hits-Wallace-for-95-yard-TD

Notice how Mike goes to raise his hand to signal to Ben but doesn't even get it halfway up and pulls it back down? Because the pass is already on it's way? I sense hesitation in our young QB, but guess what, that will get better. It might not be with Wallace (maybe it's with Devin Smith ...) but he'll get better at it. Yes these throws are low percentage. But one strike and you're in the end zone and can change the game, and possibly a season.

 

Ryans anticipation needs some more work as well, hopefully that comes with time.

 

And more trust. It'll come with more trust. Trust that Wallace will fight for the ball or break the arms of the DB in position to intercept it. That's on Wallace. This year he showed more, so perhaps next year we will see some fruits. I don't have the stats handy, but I think Lazor loosened the reins a little and allowed more deep passes towards the end of the year.

 

[video=youtube;1kDL4rQrJOQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kDL4rQrJOQ&feature=youtu.be[/video]
[video=youtube_share;R_wNziTNgeA]http://youtu.be/R_wNziTNgeA[/video]

 

I'm not sure if it is less about trust and more about ability, it's a tough task to anticipate deep like that.

 

Looks like an underthrow but isn't, Tanny had to place that ball there because of the safety coming over so it looks woefully underthrown but not really. It appears Wallace is the 2nd or 3rd read and Tanny recognizes it pretty quickly. I only saw one stutter/patter before releasing it. Could have been a tiny bit better but considering the circumstances the under throw was appropriate.

Although re-watching it, it's possible Tanny could have led him on past the safety but that's doubtful because we're talking a 50-60 yard pass. Who was the safety on that? Never bit to the other side, Good read and reaction to be that far off and crash down on the play.

 

McCourty was the FS, Butler the CB. Both of them were smoked. Notice Tannehill takes 3 steps, one hitch, throws the ball 50 yards downfield yet its still underthrown by several yards, even though Wallace paused to execute his double move. He's THAT fast.

IMO Tannehill has been throwing to spots, X yards downfield, Y yards outside the numbers, expecting Wallace to be there. That's the design of the offense, throwing to/running to spots on the field. Precision and timing. Wallace isn't that type of WR and on the deep stuff his speed usually takes him past the landmark. That's where he and Tannehill need to decide what they're gonna do.

 

Yes Dang, Wallace destroyed him off the line even with the cushion!! This ability not being taken full advantage of is what frusterates those of us who like what Wallace brings to the team.

By no means was that a terrible pass, but a better pass was 6.

I remember one guy who complained that play was Mike's fault because he didn't slow down to be able to catch and run....wonder if that guy will admidt he was being unfair with that complaint?

 

It's not a bad pass, a better pass may have indeed be 6 but Wallace wasn't the first read. And that might have even worked out, if Tanny looks over any sooner that safety will not have backpedaled so long and may have crashed the party. McCourty backpedals a full 2.5 seconds or so before deciding to commit to Wallace. Maaaybe a pump fake to the right but we're really nitpicking at that point.

Was that Hartline at the top? You can clearly see the speed difference on the field if it is (I'm not sure who it is up there though). Too small to see if it's a white guy.

 

I agree but in Tannys defense, it's kinda hard to let it rip when the pocket non existent and you're scrambling for life.

 

Ah yes, the play where Wallace didn't adjust his speed until he hit the 50. I remember this play being divisive. Fin, we had most of our disagreement stemming from your claim that Wallace "adjusted as soon as the ball was in the air." I simply pointed out, that Wallace didn't slow down until the 50, at which point he almost had to stop, instead of him slowing up earlier, which would have allowed him to catch it more in stride.

Never did I say that Tannehill couldn't have thrown a better ball. In fact, I said it could have been a better throw.

 

I'm not sure if you're playing dumb here or what.

We're talking about the distance it takes for pass X to be notably harder to complete than pass Y. If you put Brian Hartline and Mike Wallace on equal footing, at the end of the "race" the former will not be so far ahead of the latter that it would be significantly harder to complete a pass to him.

It would be difficult to come up with a rational simulation where that would be the case. You'd have to pit Mike Wallace against a 5.35 offensive linemen, or lengthen the race past anything valuable to football to have him that much further ahead of his opponent.Pads don't enter into it. Even if Brian Hartline is proportionately more hindered than Mike Wallace with pads on(Which you have no reason to believe), it still doesn't account for that distance.

What we're talking about is a much larger distance than those that represent meaningful separation between a receiver and defender, which is what you seem to be trying to conflate it with. That is a matter of feet, and even then is most certainly not decided purely by a speed advantage.

 

As soon as he SAW the ball in the air. And atleast you are consistent

 

The team didn't throw the ball downfield significantly less in 2014 than it did in 2013, however.

 

One swallow doesn't make a summer. Exceptions to the rule exist for almost all things.

 

Not really. Mike Wallace gets to that 15 yard mark in less than two seconds. Tannehill isn't scrambling for his life by then. When he waits for Wallace to get past his man 30 yards downfield is when the pass rush becomes a factor.