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NFL.com's Greg Rosenthall has RT17 ranked #25 QB in NFL

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by shamegame13, Dec 17, 2015.

  1. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    Head of nail meet hammer.
     
  2. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    1. Don't speak for me.

    2. Every QB plays better with better supporting casts. I know this is mindblowing to you but it's common sense.

    3. My stance is he's should've done better over the course of 4 seasons and you're exaggerating how bad his circumstances are. Other QBs have done more with less including this season (Mariota and Rivers).
     
  3. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    Rivers has 4 wins and Maiota has?
     
  4. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Umm, the term pocket presence implies a QB who knows what to do when that pocket starts collapsing. The point of pocket presence is to sense when the pocket is collapsing and getting out of the way to deliver a ball, throw it away to avoid a sack, etc.

    I'm not saying Tanny lacks that on the plays where he doesn't even get to the back of his drop and he's smothered.

    Here is a pocket presence drill.

    I showed a gif a while back with a rusher heading straight for Tanny, in his cone of vision, yet he doesn't do anything to avoid the sack. Nothing.

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I'm not speaking for you. I'm accurately restating your stance.

    I'm not talking about supporting casts. I'm talking about 4 specific things. These 4 specific things you ignore or like you just did here, create something different.

    Mariota & Rivers don't have the 4 specific handcuffs I'm talking about. You should stop offering them up as a counter, because they aren't actually dealing with the things I'm saying.
     
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  6. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    No, you're not accurately restating anything I've ever said.

    You're talking about four specific things that you either exaggerate or don't understand what the underlying problems are. You can blame the OL and coaches to an extent but at some point Tannehill has to be factored in.

    The OL often times looks worse than they are because we have a statue for a QB and defenses want to force him to throw. It's the same reason why our running game suffers. At least if his YPA was respectable, defenses wouldn't dare him to throw us into the win column.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  7. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

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    He's had the handcuffs removed these last three games and has been even worse. Maybe, just maybe, Lazor knew what he was doing keeping the cuffs on. Sometimes the coaches who's working with the athletes do have inside info.
     
  8. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Look up their passer ratings. They do more with less.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  9. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Jesus.

    Tell me what I got wrong about your stance? Not a single goddamned thing.

    I'm not exaggerating any of them. No one but you haters think Sherman and Lazor were good OCs. No one but you guys think our oline is anything but horrible. No one but you guys think having the least of amount of rushes in the league is not a problem, no one but you guys think not being able to audible does nothing.

    But no, you guys just hate the guy so all of those things aren't that bad, yet we're to respect your views on football? Puh-leaze.
     
  10. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No he hasn't. The line has sucked and his OC still sucks and we still abandon the running game too early.
     
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  11. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    How about you post proof of me saying Lazor is a good OC? Post proof of me saying the OL is anything but horrible (not that they look worse because of Tannehill).

    If you don't, admit you're wrong.
     
  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No you didn't specifically type out those exact words. that is true.

    However, adults, understand context and inference.

    You do every thing you can to minimize how bad the OCs and oline are. You do that by repeatedly saying they aren't as bad as we say they are.

    If you can't understand how that is essentially the same thing as saying the OCs, the oline, etc. don't suck, then I'm seriously concerned for your ability to communicate the in the real world.
     
  13. bakedmatt

    bakedmatt Well-Known Member

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    :yawn:
     
  14. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Conversely, there's too many things inside his control that he's not doing well.
     
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  15. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    The 1st quarter of the Giants game was perfect play-calling, running by Tannehill and then Miller. Since then they abandoned it... WHY??? Tannehill was good, Miller was good, receivers were ok... then nothing. I guess it was re-applied handcuffs. Geez.
     
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  16. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Why do I have to repeat myself?

    You guys are being myopic. You can pick out the Giants game and I can pick out the Ravens game.

    Over the the course of 4 seasons Tannehill has been inconsistent and underwhelming.
     
  17. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Again, you can't accurately assess that because of the things outside of his control.

    The things you guys claim to see are all significantly affected by the handcuffs I've pointed out.

    If it was just the oline, then I'd agree with you because there's plenty of QBs who thrive with a **** oline. The problem is there's never been a QB to thrive with a **** oline, **** OCs, neglected running game, and not allowed to audible. Its never happened. These aren't just 4 random things either. These are the 4 most important factors outside of the QBs control other than receiver talent (which also sucked for a significant amount of his career).

    The oline sucks terribly bad and many QBs that overcome that, do so by relying oin the running game to keep the defense honest and/or audibling out of plays and into others based on the defense, and having an OC to try and game plan around the poor oline. No QB, has ever, just "willed" his team around those issues.
     
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  18. bakedmatt

    bakedmatt Well-Known Member

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    :sleep:
     
  19. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sigh... follow along. There's been examples of it all season long. Our entire offensive scheme has been a disaster all year long. That's the point. It's not being myopic, or shortsighted or whatever else you want to call it about anything. It's fact. If you paid attention to things that are happening on the field, you will see this. I'm using that play, as an example right now, yes, because there are pictures of it in the link. There was another play in the game earlier, on 3rd and 11, no WR ran a route deeper than 8 yards. NONE. You can't blame that on the QB for not getting things done. You can't say he's got to do more. I know you don't want to look at it and admit it, because you don't want to realize that the answer to this problem lies somewhere in the middle of the two sides. The same way some won't agree that Tannehill has his flaws. Flaws that as an organization, with a poor OL, and poor coaching staffs in his time here have helped to create, and haven't helped him correct.

    What I'm pointing out to you, and encouraging you to do, is look beyond what you think. You think he's a statue, ok, go look at some replays and tape. Watch the fact that he can't even finish his drop on most plays, and can't set his feet before throwing because of our poor OL. Watch the lazy routes. Great example in the first half of the game with Kenny Stills yesterday on an out route that Stills couldn't keep in bounds. Stills lazily let the CB dictate his position to him so he was about 4 yards off his spot before he makes his break to the sidelines. It's all over at that point. Watch the pocket collapsing everywhere because our OL can't control their men, restricting escape lanes for the QB.

    Again, I'm not trying to defend the guy... I'm just saying take a look at things a little more unbiased. You'll see some things outside of the QB that will really leave you scratching your head and thinking... wow... what exactly are we trying to accomplish on offense? You'll get a better understanding of why our offense is so terrible. It's far beyond one player. At times, that one player, the QB does factor into it with a bad throw, etc, etc, but more often than not, it's not going to matter because if he tries to roll out or scramble, someone along the terrible OL gets called for holding because they don't have the talent to get it done. We called a designed rollout yesterday that was completely blown up because the RT couldn't block his guy.

    Things like this have happened all year. Problem is, most people don't notice it because it's away from the ball, or the guy holding the ball. There's been examples of it all season long, not just this one play. So, you're either missing it, or choosing not to remember it.
     
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  20. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Much like it is the other way around...

    If everyone would take a good hard look at things... they'd realize what a mess this offense is, not just because of the QB. There's nothing... NOTHING right with our offense. So to try and isolate one player and make an evaluation on him, is pretty difficult. Sure, some of his deficiencies are pretty obvious, but it's also easy to argue they are a product of his environment as well. The players, the execution, the coaching, everything is a downright mess on this unit. It's far beyond one player, if the last 3 or 4 games haven't shown people that, then there's a big problem in that regard IMO.

    Ryan has his flaws. We do a poor job of trying to overcome them, which magnifies them this year probably for some. In reality though, everything around him is completely awful just as well, and that's not on him, but it's also not going to help him get better.

    Both sides are partially right on this imo, which is why the argument on it is so... insane.
     
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  21. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    ok I'm gonna try to explain what I'm seeing even though I'm considering the factors that Fin and others have brought up..it's about a feel for the game and how a qb should be able to show some sort of adaptability thru his movement, touch, and style of play..during a game when you have 0 protection like we saw yesterday, you expect the qb to change his style up, what you don't expect is for him to stick to the script like a complete robot..there's has to be some acumen where he understands his variables and tries to get himself out of trouble..just a smidgen of improv to the game..this component is pretty much invisible.

    The the main concern for me is I don't think a qb can win it all if he doesn't have any improv or feel to his game, and when I say feel, I mean do you see him do subtle things during a play to show you that he can think fast and change his footwork, his arm angle, can he see chaos and adjust at all?...I'm not seeing any real adjustments to anything in the face of chaos, what I am seeing is a guy dropping back and throwing it to where he is supposed to throw it, and if the protection fails, the play 98 percent of the time is going to fail..

    I look at this like a test on the qb to see how he responds..when everything around you isn't working are you doing anything to make it right, now your prolly gonna tell me it's impossible but I don't believe that's the case, the problem is we're not seeing any improv ability to his game and i think if the goal is to build a dynasty, your qb is gonna need some of that..

    It doesn't look like he possesses that ability..

    So we are left to build the oline to protect him because of this deficiency, and I understand that, it's bad, but at some point, even with a good line, there is a defense across the field that will make plays, if your qb can only play one way ( and that's what he's shown) then I don't believe it's enough in clutch situations..

    We all see the games every week, qbs are constantly making plays that are not according to the script..ours is not...at all...this is an issue, so either he was ruined by having coordinators force him to play this way or he does not have to ability to be a playmaker consistently, it's what we are left with..
     
  22. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    FTR, I've always understood your stance comes from what you call a feel for the game. What I wish you'd understand is that perception you have is based on what you've seen others do at the position and those other QBs have never been shackled the way Tannehill has. You are comparing situations and they are apples and oranges.

    Imagine if there were two syrup spills on the floor. One person had paper towels and spray cleaner and another person had nothing. Then you timed them to see who was the better cleaner. Who'd win and is it even fair to compare the two?
     
  23. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I'm agreeing with tannenbaum and hickey. They are the ones making decisions. Our arguments were up before any moves were made. The moves that were made support our position. Either we are right or you are right. But so far we are two for two. You guys are 0 for 2. We didn't like the receivers you blamed tanny. Receivers replaced. We didn't like the play calling. You blamed tanny. Off coordinator and head coach gone. We don't like the oline. You blame tanny. See what the off season brings

    Edit: Actually you guys at 0-3. Tannehill signed to a franchise contract in offseason
     
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  24. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Dude it is of my opinion that Fin is a very smart person, and he does have legitimate evidence to stick to his side, this is not an easy evaluation at all, there are so many negative variables going against the qb, bad coaching, terrible oline, bad playcalling, it's understandable to not have someone agree with where I stand on the issue...for me this is about how a qb responds in the face of all this, and just wanting to see the ability to get himself out of trouble, not seeing what I want to see, and then projecting that lack of specific talent in regards to what it takes to win a championship..

    Let's try a different way to prove our points and listen to theirs.
     
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  25. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think you did so intentionally but your post is hilarious. In arguing your position you totally destroyed your own position.
     
  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And I've told you many times I am not comparing in a sense, I'm isolating his play totally and unequivocally..I have an opinion as to what it takes for a qb to be successful enough to win championships, I am judging him under that umbrella..

    The comparisons are only to show you what that actually looks like and how it can be categorized as a " winning qb".

    I have told you before that playmaking ability rears its head in the worst possible conditions, because it forces you to engage parts of your skillset that you wouldn't use if everything was perfect..
     
  27. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't disagree with you at all DJ... Well, maybe I do a bit. I've said it a lot here today, I'm not defending Ryan... I'm just trying to make those constantly on his case look at things going on around him. It's not pretty anywhere in this unit.

    You're exactly right about him not really doing much outside of the play that's called. I don't necessarily like it either, but yesterday, there really wasn't much chance of that. The guy was getting hit before his drop was finished. I think he's at least got to get set out of his drop and assess his options on the played called, then if it's not there, bail and move and try and make something out of nothing. I can't agree with you more on the fact that's what he should do, however there really wasn't that opportunity yesterday, especially after Albert went down, and it only got worse after Pouncey went out.

    I think we saw in the Giants game, when given some protection against a bad DL, we sort of saw those flashes again of what you'd want to see in his reaction time to the pass rush and maneuverability in the pocket, similar to what we saw in his first year more often. It was sometime after Sherman left, and Lazor arrived that we've seen the sharp decline in his pocket work. There was that good vid cut up of his movement in the pocket. Now he's not breaking out and running, but he's maneuvering, buying time, getting a better throwing lane. It sure seems as if Lazor really restricted that with his timing, quick read, throw to a spot offense.

    I think it's important we realize his skill set, and the fact that he can move and run, we need to encourage him to do it more. We also though, have to keep in mind, he's not as quick and agile like a Russel Wilson or Kaepernick either. I do agree though, he needs to use those legs more. Sadly though, watching that game yesterday, the one or two times he did roll out, a DE instantly got off their block and was blowing it up. Hell, there were several instances yesterday he didn't even finish his drop back before being hit. He cant just take the snap and run wildly once he gets the ball. I'd like him to at least drop back, survey the D and yeah, if it's not there... get moving, make something happen. That's a fair criticism IMO.
     
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  28. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    It seems to me he is still 'learning' to be a QB as he only really started playing QB in college... right?

    I don't know how to really explain it but I was the QB in HS and there is a certain 'feeling' you have (usually)... being a leader and all. To me he acts just like a WR that was turned into a QB. He hasn't turned all the way yet.

    The team 'could' get it done with him... but not with the disasterous pieces that are around him at the moment.

    I did think things were going to get better a couple of years ago... but it seems we are taking one step forward and then 3 back.
     
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  29. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Now that over 20 posts full of insults, antagonistinic nonsense and other assorted unpleasantness have been deleted can we keep it on topic without making it personal and insulting others for disagreeing with their assessment of things?
     
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  30. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Tannehill was always a qb until his college coach, some dweeb named Mike Sherman who now can't win a high school game, couldn't recognize that he was a better QB than some scrub named Jerron (or Jerrod...truthfully I forget) Johnson. Those two years that Tannehill taught himself to play wr to get on the field cost him valuable time and reps in his development. We knew from the beginning that his development may take longer because of that. I'm still on board though not against hedging my bet and taking a 1st round QB.
     
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  31. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    OK, thanks. I thought it was the other way around. So scratch my theory... re-thinking hypothesis of why he isn't getting it done mentally at this point.
     
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  32. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    I called OJ out on this as well. Maybe he's referring to my tweets?

    My point was 3rd and 18 is such a low % play that "taking a shot" isn't necessarily the best option there, especially with this offensive line.

    Also, OJ couldn't see the receivers on the tv feed and had no clue how they were covered. He's just a frustrated fan like the rest of us.

    Sent from my SM-G925P using Tapatalk
     
  33. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I did not come to any conclusions based on one game or one season Brandon, this is something I have been concerned with since I started watching him at the pro level, so I have taken into account a lot of different things, I've comparmentalized the oline situation and of course I could be wrong, but when I do watch him live from certain angles it confirms what I see on film..he has issues anticipating where the pressure is coming from and what to do in the process...basically he's just late to process those multiple things and come to a solution that is a positive..

    I realize the metaphors that have been put out there, his oline is inordinately bad, but even so, you would still see those things I speak of, and if not, and you telling me that he's been trained to be a robot, then that ain't good either...we're talking about an instinctual thought process/reactionary movement that doesn't seem to be there when protection breaks down..

    Can Ryan play at a certain level if the line is good, yes, you've never read where I said he's bad or he sucks, just that I don't think what he does have, is good enough..

    Here's to hoping the oline has been so bad for four years that it's just a miss evaluation on my part, and like you said if he does get a normal amount of time, maybe his scrambling instincts will re engage themselves..

    My hope is that Ryan sees that he hasn't even thought about running for a conversion in 9 strait games, and realizes...wtf am I doing...I was an athlete who played receiver in a big time program against big time competition..I should just take off if my first or 2nd read isn't there because that's smart football...staying in the pocket at all costs is not in today's game
     
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  34. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Johnson was just as good a college QB as Tanne, possibly better.
     
  35. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Well, we saw Tannehill break the pocket and start to run...then decide to throw to Landry. He missed the throw, but I thought it was the right decision, and is an example from the last two that shows him doing some of what you want.

    I agree, I'd like to see more, where we differ is that I'm not sure that he has a whole lot of opportunity. He can't escape like Wilson or Kap or Newton. So, when the pocket is disintegrating all around, like it has his whole career, from 4 rushers, it's hard for him to
    1. Escape
    2. Find an open receiver

    I just think, what if say, a QB like Tom Brady was behind this line? He'd get killed. He wouldn't be scrambling around. Sure, we've all seen Brady take off when it was WIDE OPEN for him, but he's not juking defenders and breaking the pocket. Tannehill is a faster version of Brady, physically, I think. In other words, he's faster straight line than Brady, but he's limited is escapability just like Brady. Granted Brady is much, much better at shifting in the pocket, but, backups or not, his oline consistently plays at a higher level than Tannehill's oline. It helps to run the ball.
     
  36. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Brady can maneuver in the pocket. His mechanics and instincts are impeccable. He also has better anticipation and can throw quicker as a result. Tannehill isn't even close to Brady in any of those things. Brady makes his makeshift OL look decent.
     
  37. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yea, none of that really relates. If Brady was behind our line, he'd be dead. I don't care how impeccable his instincts are, nor do I care about his anticipation. How often are teams rushing three or four guys against the Patriots? When teams do that, Brady has all day to throw, and he picks teams apart .
     
  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    traits of qb's who know how to deal with protection breakdowns.

    1} perpheral vision..keeping eyes on your oline to see whos getting beat while seeing developments downfield.

    2} quick cognitive skills..reactionary quickness

    3} agility, controlled coordination, precision in escapibility

    4} anticipation..the inner clock..a sense

    5} The smarts to know when to run because of the good of the team, how it can inspire, and how it threatens a defense for future plays within the game.

    things may get redundant when talking about this but its literally going to make or break this qb, even if we get a better oline, a qb has to be able to do some level of these things consistently to win championships.
     
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  39. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Forget what Brady does in the pocket for a moment.. his ability as a passer and as a field general (including changing plays to take advantage of the defense) commands way more respect, automatically reducing the pressure on the OL. So it's not just scrambling ability (which as you point out Brady doesn't have.. except shifting well to avoid pressure), it's how good you are in the rest of the game that can make the OL look better.
     
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  40. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's cute. A guy who couldn't get drafted was as good as a guy who went 8th overall. How very unbiased of you.
     
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