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Marvel Phases 4 & 5 Discussion

Discussion in 'TV, Music and Movies' started by Unlucky 13, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    He did murder a god (his god) right when his kid died and he got the sword, but I hear you - why not show him and Lady Sif battling where he chops off her arm and kills the giant god. That would have made sense. Valkyrie is a tough character, she's been taken in several different directions, but in the end, she's a third or even fourth fiddle in these movies and lacks the time to really develop. She is RIPE for a TV show, that's where she would absolutely shine. Sadly I don't think one is in the works.
     
  2. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Just saw Love and Thunder tonight.

    For me, something has to be pretty epic to earn an 8. This wasn't that. It was however a very enjoyable movie that kept my close interest and made me laugh over and over and over. It was smart, and witty, and knew what it wanted to be and made it happen. If this was a stand alone movie and not a part of the MCU, I would give it a standing ovation.

    However.....these Phase 4 projects keep digging Marvel into a deeper and deeper hole by shooting off in different Galaxy or even Universe defining ways that are going to be very, very hard to eventually ever tie together neatly. I get that it all exists in one form or another in the comics, but that's just a different animal that's always evolving. You can forgive something from the 60s or 70s as being of another time and less forward thinking and just move on in that world, but the MCU is all one connected thing where everything that happens in one movie or TV show happens in all of them. That's the key appeal. And I really worry that they're taking things too far and its going to cause bigger issues. To this point, everything has had a plan and they've made it work smartly, but the very reality of the MCU is getting shaky.
     
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  3. vmarcilfan75

    vmarcilfan75 blah...blah...blah... Club Member

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    It was ok. Pretty let down to be honest Liked Jane/Portman and The fight scenes everyone else mentioned

    IMO tried way too hard to be funny and witty. Every line doesn’t have to funny. Didn’t care much for Valkyrie or Korg or Zeus.

    Maybe on the 2nd viewing(Disney+) I’ll enjoy it more.
     
  4. EastcoastEZ

    EastcoastEZ Member

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    I don't blame the writers for the movies not being as good as they were in the past (in my opinion they are not), its just we are getting pretty deep into the characters and potential stories.
    The best thing Marvel could do now is to take a break from the movies (and shows) for some time, let the minds of the fans 'reset'. That isn't how things work though especially with Disney looking for profit from each and every film.
     
  5. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    We just did that for 2020. It sucked, lol.
     
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  6. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    While I agree that is a key appeal, a lot of that was put together by duct tape. Look over a lot of the MCU during the Infinity War Saga and most of the "setup" for the next movie was either forgotten or rectoned at the beginning of the next movie. There wasn't a huge overarching plan. Thanos was put in at the end of the first Avengers as an Easter Egg by Joss Whedon. The "Fine, I will do it myself" scene by Thanos makes zero sense. And they even set up Thor Ragnorock in Age of Ultron and used nothing that they set up. That entire scene is a waste of time.

    They made it up as they went. Phase 4 is a lot like Phase 1 in which things happen and they will figure out how to put everything together in probably Phase 6. Like they did last time in Phase 3.
     
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  7. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    This is 100% true, but that they DID work so hard to retconn and eventually tie things together made it seem like they would keep having bit overarching plots running through the movies (and now ... shows!). However, it really isn't the case. I'm wondering if this is an error, or just maybe something I need to reset my expectation about.

    Like, I really enjoyed Thor, more than most it seemed. But it didn't mention Kang or anyone else aside from
    Eternity
    that might come back as some future significant figure, and that threw me a touch. But ultimately I didn't care because I liked the movie.

    Dr. Strange I thought would set up and lead into a lot more than it eventually did. The Loki show brought Kang to the forefront, and then he's kind of just .... not in anything else. I'm not sure what to think about that, but I still enjoy the movies nonetheless.

    And on that note, new trailers dropped for She Hulk (better CGI than the last, good vibe, but not 100% there on the CGI imo) and Wakanda Forever (interesting, they downplay the new Black Panther heavily and don't give any real confirmation of who it will be, presumably Shuri but maybe not?)
     
  8. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Well, its important to remember that the MCU movies don't necessarily happen in the MCU timeline as they get released. Even the ones that seemingly are happening in "The Now". They don't sometimes point it out, but in the official timeline, there have been various movies in the past that took place months or even years after movies that were released later. Probably due to these kinds of issues. They're as vague about it as possible to give themselves leeway and plausible deniability.

    Also, as far as Kang goes, he or one of his varients the bad guy in Ant Man 3 coming in the Spring, so he's around.
     
  9. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I think Thor is potentially setting up a Young Avengers.

    Also, one thing to remember is that a lot of their plans were set back due to COVID. America was supposed to be in Spider-Man: No Way Home but couldn't due to scheduling.

    However, just like the Infinity Saga Arc, they are going to take bits and pieces to make it look like they knew what they are doing all along.
     
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  10. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I finished Ms Marvel, and it's fine. It's a solid show. Unlike the other Disney+ shows that are much more cinematic in style and format, this one is very much a network show in how it's shot, edited and presented. It's very similar to Agents of Shield in those visual ways, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the same people were involved behind the scenes.

    In the same vein, the writing, acting and story all feel very network. In line with DCs Arrowverse in some ways, with a hint of Sam Raimi thrown in at times. It was a welcome breath of fresh air after the mess that was Kenobi earlier this summer.

    The story is, unfortunately, largely forgettable. Iman Vellani does a very solid job in the lead role, especially for someone with zero acting credits. She's very believable. But its an origin story that focuses mostly on interpersonal relationships and community than it does actually moving the plot along, and the aspects that make up the superhero aspect are probably only a quarter of the screen time.

    I'm interested to see her in The Marvels next year to see where they go from here.
     
  11. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I think the biggest problem with Ms Marvel is that they have three major storylines and only 6 episodes. I felt it really needed to be 10 to 12 to just flesh the story.

    I thought the interpersonal relationships and community were the best part of the show. Just needed more to make a lot of the villain stuff make some sense. Either that or just commit to a season 2 and push out either the Damage Control or the other villains who I can't remember their names.
     
  12. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I agree that it did absolutely feel like all of the aspects of the interactions with the adversarial characters were rushed. And the fact that they spent half of one episode on a flashback with other characters was an odd choice. That's the kind of thing that would make sense in a show with a 20 episode season, but with this little time it could have been something that they just talked about with a few lines of dialogue.

    And I don't disagree that the interpersonal relationships were the best part of the show, but....I don't want that to be the best part of the show. Its not what I'm here for. I want the 75/25 ratio to be flipped. I mean, if Peter spent 75% of one of the Spiderman movies talking to Aunt May and his friends in ways that didn't push the plot along, would that make a great movie? Has any other MCU property functioned that way? Maybe the Eternals, and I've complained plenty about how I felt about that one.
     
  13. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I think it would make a great Spider-Man movie. Some of the best comics in Spider-Man were his relationships with the people in his life. I don't want all the comic books movies just being mostly action. I also think I do not agree with you about pushing the plot along, because I felt the interpersonal relationships in Ms. Marvel was the plot and the super hero stuff was mostly just in there to satisfy the action quota.. They did an OK job with Ms. marvel.

    MCU will get really boring if all the movies were exactly the same. Or you get a movie that is just 100% plot like Thor: Ragnarock. A movie that would have been MUCH better if they flipped the 75/25 ratio to actually be about the characters and their relationships than jokes and plot.
     
  14. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    We just don't want the same thing. And that's ok. But the mcu is basically my safe space in entertainment right now, and there's very little else out there that I really enjoy. And if what the mcu has been until recently (which I love) keeps being altered, I worry both that I'm going to eventually lose it, and that I'll be sitting through more and more movies and shows that I don't enjoy simply because they're the mcu and I'm compelled to closely watch every minute of it.
     
  15. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    One thing to remember is that there is more hours of content in Phase 4 than all first 3 phases combined. They are going to have to continue to evolve and change and make things different if they continue to put out 50 to 100 hours of content every few years.

    I don't think you are ever going to "lose it". There will be plenty of MCU content that will fit the mold. They are not going to just abandon the standard American story structure.

    One beautiful thing about the age we live in is that if you watch a show that is not your style there are plenty of shorter videos on YouTube that can get you caught up so you don't have to miss anything important. Honestly, I tend to watch them anyway so I can see if I missed anything.

    Funny enough MCU are pretty much the only movies I go out to theaters to see.
     
  16. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    First off, She Hulk is really good and a lot of fun. I've watched the first three episodes and really like both the tone and the content. Tatiana Maslany is very good in the lead role. I hope to see her in the MCU for a long time to come.

    Secondly, Wow! Disney just announced the Thunderbolts movie and lineup, and its everything that we could have hoped for.

    • Sebastian Stan as Winter Solider (Bucky Barnes)
    • Flornece Pugh as Yelena Belova
    • Wyatt Russell as US Agent (John Walker)
    • Julia Louis Dryfus as Contessa Valentina Allegra de Fontaine
    • David Harbour as Red Guardian
    • Olga Kurylenko as Taskmaster (Antonia Dreykov)
    • Hannah John-Karmen as Ghost (Ava Starr)
    The movie will come out in July of 2024, and will be the final piece of Phase 5. I'm really excited. The return of Ghost and Red Guardian is a really cool surprise.

    https://geektyrant.com/news/marvel-announces-the-official-thunderbolts-team-lineup
     
  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    As a reader of the early Thunderbolts I hate it.

    As a fan of the MCU, I am looking forward to this movie.
     
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  18. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I know almost nothing about the comic. Pure MCU on this one.
     
  19. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Not gonna lie: I'd like to have seen Baron Zemo and Abomination in the lineup and it feels like they missed the opportunity to have a team leader (like Reed Richards or Charles Xavier) and muscle (Hulk or Ben Grimm) by excluding them. Other than that, my only problem is including Red Guardian, who was essentially comic relief in Black Widow. That character might kill my enthusiasm to watch the film. Other than that, I trust Marvel to make it work, especially since it's bound to lead into something much bigger in Phase Six. I don't remember Taskmaster having such a masculine frame in Black Widow. Maybe I'll watch it again.
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    For me, the beauty of the MCU is the regular comic relief. I never, ever want it to be pure seriousness. That's just not for me. Let DC hoard all of the dark, gloomy unhappiness. They can keep it.

    I also don't get the love for Zemo. I've not thought he was a special or likable character in the MCU.
     
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  21. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    It is a fun comic about a group of villains who pretend to be super heroes to do bigger crimes when the super heroes disappear, then they enjoy doing good and eventually most of them redeem themselves.
     
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  22. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I thought he was a *meh* character in F&TWS, but his role as chessmaster in Captain America: Civil War was on point with me. Seemed perfect as a deceitful mastermind of a group of reluctant villans/anti-heroes. Plus, he has a strong connection with Bucky, so there would have been organic tension in their relationship. Finally, the fact that he once led the Thunderbolts was another reason to think he'd be included.
    [​IMG]
     
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  23. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    She Hulk is a lot of fun.

    Tatiana Maslany is excellent in the lead role. She's really charasmatic, smart and funny. The rest of the cast is pretty good, and I think that if the show were given several seasons with more episodes, like TV used to be, they would find their chemistry pretty quickly and last for a long time, but that's not going to happen in this case, so it is what it is.

    Not every episode is great, but most are good, and they use guest stars well for the most part. The show has a consistent theme, but they fall into some of the same traps that Love and Thunder and other recent movies have where they open up plot holes that don't need to be there. The show takes place in the "present" of the MCU (which is several years into our future), but has super powered individuals existing as if that's a normal thing in the MCU's Earth. Which at this point, beyond a select few, its not supposed to be.

    In the end, I absolutely enjoyed it, and I think that most of the people bashing it or giving it low ratings have an agenda. I really hope that we get to see her in more Marvel projects in the future.
     
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  24. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    He was probably the best part of that otherwise lackluster show to me. They are trying to give him more of the anti-hero vibe than being a straight up villian it seems.

    Speaking of Thunderbolts, Harrison Ford seems to have been recruited to play Thunderbolt Ross.
     
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  25. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    F&TWS left too much low-hanging fruit on the vine. They didn't develop Karli Morgenthau into a character with compelling human motivations. They devolved John Walker from being a great anti-hero to cartoonish villain to an utterly unbelievable hero. Falcon's awfully cringe speech and plea for humanity. The Power Broker angle sucked badly and Sharon Carter was underwhelming. They underused Zemo. And then, they failed to stick the landing by rushing and trying to tie up enough loose ends in the final episode to fill three additional episodes.

    It p*ssed me off because it had some of the most compelling Marvel content in any format. Isaiah Bradley's story was fantastic and worthy of its own series. Carl Lumbly should have won an Emmy for portraying Bradley. Bucky's discussion with his therapist was great. To be honest, everything that Sebastian Stan did was great in the show. Sam's problems with saving his family's business were compelling. I fell in love with Ayo and hope we get a lot more of her in the future. And the scene of John Walker holding a bloody shield that he just used to murder somebody was iconic enough to write a thesis. It went downhill fast after building up my interest.

    It had great content along with some of the most amateurish scenes and situations imaginable. It could have been the best Disney+ MCU series but was by far, the worst for me. Such a missed opportunity.
     
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  26. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    It was greatly effected by the pandemic. There's no question that it ended up several levels lower than it could have otherwise been. But its water in the bridge now.

    However personally, none of the things that you pointed out as wanting to see more appeal to me anyways. Its just not want as entertainment. I don't want dark and miserable and real slices of human life. I want what the MCU usually is.
     
  27. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I can appreciate your opinion. I'm a big fan of seeing realistic characters portrayed on film. The best thing about the Disney+ MCU is that it gave us something to appreciate about the Other Guys in the Avengers. I cannot stand cardboard characters and poor writing; I want somebody to relate to. It's what made Killmonger a great villain. It's what made Thanos a great villain. It's what makes Peter Parker a fantastic character.

    It's why for me, Andor is the best Star Wars property since Rogue One and possibly the best property since the Original Trilogy. I had no hopes for it and it beats all of the other Star Wars content by far.

    F&TWS got my hopes up for something other than explosions and chase scenes and ultimately, I'd rather it had more instead of some of the SMH stuff they gave us. To put it plainly, I like great films as much as I like good flicks and I'm entertained if I can get the experience of watching both at the same time.
     
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  28. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    You can relate to Thanos?

    I enjoyed F&TWS more than you. I really liked the heel turn of John Walker. I thought that was really well done. I was disappointed with how that seemed to be undone in the final episode.

    Though I do agree with the cringe speech at the end and Sharon Carter's heel turn. I think that show had one of the worst final episodes in the MCU Streaming.

    Also, Rogue One Sucks! Though everyone is saying Andor is good. I will have to check it out.
     
  29. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    LOL! We all are entitled to our opinions. But yeah, Rogue One landed better with me than the prequels and the sequels did. Solo was actually underrated.

    Andor is for a much more mature viewer than typical Star Wars fans (as was Rogue One). It's not a lot of action and the only iconic character is Mon Mothma. A lot of people hate it because it's such a slow burn and I can respect that. But it's the best world building in the entire franchise and takes place on the street level, which I've been wanting to see for decades. It's better than Kenobi, and I really liked Kenobi.

    If you are a Star Wars fan, I'll recommend you watch Tales Of The Jedi. Six animated shorts (10-15 minutes each) that fill in parts of Dooku's path toward the Dark Side and Ahsoka's backstory. I think they were written by Dave Filoni. Perfect for somebody with short attention span like me.
     
  30. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    By the way: My post-Covid theater mindset hasn't returned to pre-Covid confidence, so I'm not going to the theater to see anything. If any of you goes to see Black Panther: Wakanda Forever, feel free to have spoilery discussions here.
     
  31. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Solo was fine. I really wish they didn't fire Lord and Miller. I would have loved to see their movie.

    For me, it is hard to pick which is the worst Star Wars movie between Rogue One, Rise of Skywalker, or Attack Of The Clones. Rogue One and Rise of Skywalker both did a great job of making me legit angry, but at least Rise of Skywalker had that bow by Ben Solo before the fight with the useless Knights of Ren. That one moment almost made that movie worth it.
     
  32. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I have had my four shots and I will be wearing an N95 mask. Might go Thursday Night though.
     
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  33. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I get my 4th shot tomorrow. Flu shot too. My wife and I hope to go see it on the 10th, if our local cinema has an early showing, so that we can go while our kids are in school. With previews its going to be more than three hours long.
     
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  34. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Rise Of Skywalker was straight trash. Considering everything that happened took place over the course of a day stretched my suspension of disbelief way past its limits. I kept thinking to myself: "It has to take longer to make sure you do your preflight starship checks and repairs than it did for this movie's timeline to take place." Grrrr... I remember the original movie, where they were in hyperspace long enough for Luke to play board games and get his initial Jedi training (likely hours) before reaching the remnants of Alderaan. Yet, they made a bunch of flights, hyperspace trips, repaired a badly damaged Millenium Falcon, navigate one of the most treacherous seas ever placed to film to reach a downed Death Star, search that huge facility to find the holocron, have Rey fight Ren (again) and then have Ren resolve his daddy issues and that was just part of their day. And don't get me going on "Somehow, Palpatine's returned".

    It wasn't just a bad Star Wars movie; it was a bad movie period. An utter insult to my intelligence and fandom. The perfect capper to a rotten trilogy. Sad because The Force Awakens actually made me optimistic that something better was coming.

    I liked Rogue One, though. I hated the Grand Moff Tarkin and Princess Leia abominations and didn't understand what Chirrut Imwe and Baze Malbus added to the story, but otherwise, it hit the points I want to be hit in a Star Wars movie. And the Vader scene was badass. Other than the original trilogy, it's the only one that I would watch again (I recently rewatched Solo, BTW). If I ever meet J.J. Abrams, I'm asking him for the price of the ticket I paid to see SW:TROS.
     
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  35. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    The Rise of Skywalker is a ****ing mess. It was just terrible. That is what happens when you listen to loud internet fandoms. Felt like the entire movie was just, "O.K nerds! If this is what you want? Here have it! Have all of it!"

    Rogue One, I just couldn't stand. The movie doesn't make sense. Almost every scene feels like, "How do we make this cool?"

    I spent the entire movie screaming, "Why did you do that?", "Why would they build it there?", What do you mean by that?", "Hope? Didn't these people just kill your dad for no reason?".

    Oo there is a tentacle monster in Force Awakens, How do we make that worse and make less sense?

    One of my favorite Youtube Series is called Honest Trailers. I felt the entire movie was one big long quote from that series, "So the movie can happen."

    I hated the Vader scene. He was trying to get the plans. Why didn't he use his magical force to grab the physical plans that I still don't know why they have to be physical when they already displayed the can beam information as well. Plus it completely ruins the first scene with Leia and Vader in A New Hope.
     
  36. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, once I considered the availability of zip drives in my real life, the entire plot of the first Star Wars just became kind of silly to me. That extends to Rogue One by proxy. With that being said, the prequels sucked balls for being overly complicated. Too much exposition that led to a simple tale of good vs evil in the Original Trilogy. Oh, and I'm surprised the CGI overload didn't give me a nosebleed. I almost gave up on everything when Sidious sensed Vader's peril on Mustafar and arrived there to find him within the hour. It was like Lucas was oblivious to how long things take to get around town, let alone around the galaxy. The same problem I had with Abrams in the sequels. Keep it simple, but don't make it stupid.

    I haven't watched all of the animated series, but the ones I did watch are enjoyable. I'm looking forward to season 2 of The Bad Batch and will probably finish Clone Wars and Rebels in the next few months. Dave Filoni and Jon Favreau arrived a little too late, but I'm glad they arrived. I'm not excited for Mando. They blew it by bringing Grogu back. Book of Boba Fett was hit or miss for the entire season. I really enjoyed Kenobi because Ewan McGregor was perfect and the showrunner put enough epic into it to balance out some of the that made no sense moments that you pointed out about Rogue One. Andor stands up on its own, as a Star Wars story or just a good story. Great world building, fantastic character development, wonderful performances by almost everybody.

    The problem a lot of Star Wars fans will have is that it's more science fiction than fantasy, but that's fine with me. I'll never scratch the itch I got as a 14-year old boy watching the first movie. Nothing has come close in 45 years. With that being said, I'll just be happy if my intelligence isn't insulted. And now, I have a feeling you may have ruined Rogue One for me.

    BYW: Honest Movie Trailers is great. I also enjoy Screen Rant's Pitch Meetings, but they wear thin if you watch too many of them too close together. My favorite YT series of that type are ScreenCrush and Heavy Spoilers, but I also watch a lot of Cosmic Wonder and WhatCulture. It's a great time to be an aging nerd.
     
  37. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That is what I meant, Pitch Meetings.
     
  38. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Nov 26, 2007
    Detroit Metro Area MI
    So, I'm actually quite enjoying She-Hulk so far (like 5-6 episodes in). It's not taking itself seriously, it's building with low stakes to start, it's got good humor and self-awareness (not hurt by She Hulk breaking the 4th wall, but it's not overused). I was pretty iffy on the CGI from the trailer and the early reviews on the show were pretty mixed it seemed so it took awhile for me to get around, but I like it.
     
  39. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    The CGI isn't the best. It is what it is. That's a real world problem that the people with money need to do better with (overworked, underpaid, stretched thin studios). But otherwise, I think that the majority of people who dislike the show do so either out of pure misogyny sadly (as has become sadly common) or are perhaps too young to understand that the show is intended to be similar to popular dramadies of the late 90s and early 2000s. In talking in Marvel forums, I realized that younger fans just have zero exposure to most of those shows, and so they just don't get it, or appreciate it.
     
    texanphinatic likes this.
  40. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    *sigh*

    Very frustrating that apparently every single morning and early afternoon weekday showing of Wakanda Forever at my local cinema is "all ages sensory friendly", which is not a great experience for everyone else. I might end up not being able to see it.
     

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