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How far did Pat White and P Turner set the Dolphins back?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Jan 26, 2010.

  1. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Pat White was the #43 pick, Pat Turner was the #87 pick, our second and third round picks from the 2009 draft.

    The 2009 Dolphins got very little production out of either one, White did contribute, but all of the "revolutionize the Wildcat" stuff just never happened, there was no even semi serious passing offense from the Wildcat with Pat White in the game.

    Pat Turner was active for maybe 2 games, he covered a couple of kickoffs, and that was it, a lost season to be kind, all of the "he drops his hips and gains seperation" Jeff Ireland report came to -0- by any realistic measure.

    Now there has been enough written about both of them, Pat White especially, but I'd prefer this thread to be forward looking.

    As in, two high draft picks even theoritical production have to be replaced by an outstanding draft this year, or a UDFA signing, or what have you.

    To me, this means Ireland and Brian Gaine will have to find two players, one at Lb, one on Offense, who are either overlooked or maybe injured or maybe obscure enough that they can find a D Bess type from them.

    I think one solution could be pick up Roscoe Parrish on the cheap from the Bills and squeeze production from him as a Wr, the other is to "hope' Ryan Grice Mullen can blossom into an offensive threat, a faster version of D Bess who can also do a better job on Returns.

    Another option is addition via subtraction, the 49ers are in the market for a kick returner, we happen to have a good one in Ted Ginn, and trading him to an NFC team would remove most of the "come back to haunt us" risk.

    I could see a Ginn for Ronnie Fields trade if a draft pick was out of the question, Nolan went out of his way to bring him to San Francisco so he clearly likes his game.

    That would open a clear role for Brian Hartline as well as picking up a draft choice as well as obviating the need for a draft pick being used on a NT.

    As for Pat White, I would purt forward that Tyler Thigpen has closed the hole that White's lack of production created, but the Future of the WC is in jeopardy, when Brad Smith is doing what Pat White was supposed to have been doing, namely throwing 40yd passes in the AFC Championship game, White the WC Qb has problems.

    What say you?

    Does Tyler Thigpen fill the hole that Pat White made on the roster?

    Who can fill Pat Turner's #78 draft pick?

    TBH, Turner was more of a disappointment to me than White, at least White can ride the pine and grow physically and intellectually given enough time and desire, a Wr should at least be able to play a bit...just a little bit...
     
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  2. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I mostly agree, but it's too early to make a final judgment on Turner. I know the writing is on the wall, in very BIG letters, but the rule of thumb is to give a receiver 3 years, though they are supposed to show flashes in that time and he has not as of yet. I guess, I'll keep a tiny, tiny bit of hope alive regarding Turner....Ok? Mr. Negative:lol::knucks::up:
     
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  3. Big E

    Big E Plus sized porn star

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    I agree with sceeto here. Plus Pat White came in at some key points at the end of the yr and made some good plays. We drafted him for one reason and we used him for that reason. As for Turner the learning curve is always alot steeper for taller wr's who are used to imposing their wills on players in college. You cant do that in the NFL.
     
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  4. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well sceeto, I was sort of afraid that would happen, I was being objective, not negative, I still like both players, however if competition is supposed to mean something, as well as "OMG WE CANNOT TRADE DRAFT PICKS!!!" then when they don't produce you have find someone who can produce or at least offer some competition for their roles.

    I sort of like the idea of Ginn for Fields, it would fill a couple of needs.
     
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  5. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We're giving up on Patrick Turner to early. What we know is, he struggles getting separation. In time, with more development into his game, he could learn to seperate and become the red zone target we need.

    Pat White will be fine. The man is a gamer. Let his body develop, and the WC will flourish with him running it.
     
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  6. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I think hitting on Hartline who I expect to be a quality WR for us for years to come at least partially makes up for the misstep with Turner. As for Pat White, just not sure and I think the jury is still out to some degree. He might still be able to help this team somehow but it's not looking too good.
     
  7. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Those two picks can be salvaged by...

    1) Moving White to WR/RB/HB. Basically, a utility player on offense.

    2) Turner working his butt off and making an impact next season. He's a rookie... it wasn't necessarily a wasted pick... yet.

    I also hate the idea of trading Ted Ginn, unless we can take advantage of another team in the swap. If the decision were mine, I'd keep Ginn at least one more season, and I'd work him with the expectation of being a #2 WR.
     
  8. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    How can you be set back going forward, if both are still on the team and they play and produce next year and beyond??

    Set back for 2009 sure......but they are both on the roster, and seems both will fill roles next year...thus you are proposing a setback is determined on future production - and thus impossible to state now. No setback beyond 2009...and that season is over....spilt milk is spilt milk.
     
  9. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I know. I was just messin':wink2::yes:
     
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  10. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Thank you MonstBlitz, that is what I was sort of looking for, but I do think we have a role for a "new" Wr if Turner continues to be invisible.

    As for White, I'd suppose he would face some WC Qb competition this training camp, watching Brad Smith throw that bomb out of the WC is what White was drafted for and it didn't happen, but it should.

    I like Grice Mullen, and imho Tsoumpas makes up for Shawne Murphy, they have a 'new" pure G to develop and use for depth.
     
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  11. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I can't say they've set us back at all because I'm unwilling to say that one year shows exactly what you have gotten in the draft from ANY player.

    Obviously we all have guys we think will be busts, are busts, don't have "it" and what not. However I dont think you can say it's a wasted pick for anyone so soon.
     
  12. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I dunno, a small part of me wonders what the Bills would give up for Tyler Thigpen, Chan Gailey's KC Qb, they had alot of success together in KC.

    But trading a Starting Qb within the Division has a high unintended consequence potential.


    I don't think he is a waste per se, but my goodness we need a bit more out of our #3 pick for a couple of more years, hopefully he can develop but they are anal when it comes to Roster Spots.

    Well, as long we land a starter at a need position, I'd be okay with it, I don't think Sparano will use Ginn as an all around threat, PR,KR and WR, as he should be.

    To me Ginn is a 2000k yd per year player, easily at that, if he is used properly.
     
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  13. DolfanCole

    DolfanCole Season Ticket Holder

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    For now, I'm gonna say that they haven't set us back at all, but from a slightly different perspective than what's already been discussed. Although I do agree that it's hard to judge their impact after only one year.

    I think it's a given that you don't hit on every draft pick for whatever reason. It is extremely rare for a team to hit on every draft pick and have them all contribute. Also, it's much easier to look back afterwards and say we could have picked up somebody who was still on the board when we picked. The Willis-Ginn scenario is the great example of this. Although, it can be less clear cut for the later rounds. So it's not so much how much they may or may not have set us back, it's more how much further along could we have been had we picked someone else? Either way though, that's hard to evaluate only one year in and way too Monday Morning QB.
     
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  14. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    I like Larrys answer all the way here.
     
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  15. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    How far back?

    Lets just say The Dolphins will need 1.21 Jiggawatts to get back to where they were prior to drafting them.

    I kid. Meh, we know we got a football player in White (not a QB but a player). Turner I'm willing to give another year to prove himself. Obviously wasn't ready for the big time but hopefully he's learned something watching.
     
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  16. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    We're not going to hit on all them and it's a terrible idea to judge a pick after one season... It aids in discussion, but I don't think there is really any reason to think that Pat White and Pat Turner has set the franchise back after just one season.
     
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  17. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    They set us back a far amount.

    Forget that as far as I'm concerned both are so far busts at where they were drafted and that both picks were wasted.

    Look at the wasted time we spent trying to find any plays or formations that Pat White could make yards in. Every minute spent in practice with Pat White instead of with Chad Henne was a minute we will never see again. Every rep given to Pat White was a wasted rep that had a negative impact on our football team.

    Not to mention us now needing another QB that we could of found last year. Any of the 4 QBs taken in the 6th round last year would have beaten out Pat White as a real NFL QB.

    I almost find it hard to believe that anyone thinks that Pat White was in any way a plus for us. He had one 33 yard run with such great blocking that any of our RBs or WRs would have made 30-40 yards.

    His only other "plus" plays were HAND OFFS!

    Otherwise he was a drive killer. He is too small to run inside and too slow to run outside in the NFL. And he cannot handle a NFL size football plus as shown in the Senior Bowl practices, he cannot throw short and medium passes over a LOS (they use a 10 foot high net).

    Pat Turner is so poor he could not even see the field. And considering that we do not have a great WRing corp, that is really bad.

    But the real way to look at this question (besides the time wasted on them) is what players could we of had on this football team instead of them?

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/2009/tracker#dt-by-round-input:2

    I can list 10-15 players who we could of had instead of Pat White that could of started for us. And 20-30 that would have a good future with us. Click on the above link and make your own list.

    There is a decent list of players we could of had over Pat Turner. How about TE's Jared Cook, Chase Coffman or Shawn Nelson? I would have bet money that we were going to draft a TE last year. How much better could we have been with a good young pass catching TE? Jared Cook had a better 40 time then Pat White did.

    Being a homer I also would have loved WR Louis Murphy. He is 6'2" 202, is a great blocker and he ran a 4.42 40 at the combine (9th fastest). Yet we took Brian Hartline over him (and I really really like Hartline, I thought before the season he was going to be our best all around WR).
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2010
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  18. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    I hold back judgement on Patrick Turner but not on White.

    Even if White turns into what he was drafted for, a spark for the Wildcat, that's too damn high to pick a player that is only going to see the field in one package. The only way the White pick becomes defensible is if he can learn to be a dual threat. A dual threat as an effective WR while also developing into a serviceable QB.

    Regardless, the pick was a flawed strategy from the beginning and wasted.

    Missed picks, as we all have learned over the last decade, have very large repercussions. One high missed pick alone dosen't necessarily do it but if you miss on multiple high picks in one draft you are setting the progression of your team back MORE than just one year IMO.
     
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  19. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Which is what I am getting at, however I think the damage (if it can be called that) is mitigated by acquiring the excellent backup Qb Tyler Thigpen, at worst White becomes a #3 Qb, at best he makes the WC better via improvement in his game.

    We did need a serious #2/#3 Qb who had game experience and could step in at need, and had upside, Thiggy fills all three roles.

    I remember Cleo Lemon and Tyler Thigpen is no Cleo Lemon!
     
  20. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    I agree that Thigpen was a flat out coup to cover the mistake of White.
    However, even obtaining Thigpen does not cover the loss of that 2nd round pick and having filled a NEED with it. It's ok to call a mistake a mistake.
     
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  21. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Oh please, are Cook, Coffman, and Nelson worth all of the CAPS and Red Fonts?

    White at the very lest is a long term Qb prospect, something we also needed and he plays the WC as well and does alright, not "revolutionize the NFL" alright, but still.
     
  22. JMORGAN6977

    JMORGAN6977 New Member

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    Remember this guy in 2006

    7 233 WR Aromashodu Devin Auburn

    We were all high on him yet nobody gave him time to develop. I will reserve judgment for now on P Turner........
     
  23. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

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    I think Hartline makes up for Turner, luckily. Pat White uh I still despise that pick and wish they would make him into a slash player so there's at least some trickery to him.
     
  24. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

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    Well the Colts gave up on him too.
     
  25. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Exactly. That's why I wouldn't trade anyone within the division. Especially Thigpen, who was... no offense to White... our only legitimate backup QB this season.

    True... but, I'm willing to be patient with young players. Even a 3rd rounder. There's nothing wrong with bringing a guy along slowly... as long as he eventually contributes.

    I agree. I don't think we're going to see him settle into his role as long as he's the bellcow at WR. To be blunt about it, he just doesn't seem to have the balls. But, I would be very hesitant to trade a young player with no character issues that has his kind of speed and has yet to top out.
     
  26. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    They set us back quite a bit. The team is still starved enough at talent that it needed players it could immediately use. I can understand the Turner pick. It was a position of need and they had good reason to pick him up. It just happened that Hartline blossomed and Turner hasn't yet. But the Pat White pick was very, very bad for us. That was a potential starter at a position of need for us. That could have been Connor Barwin at OLB or Clint Sintim at OLB or ILB for us. Bad decision by the FO.
     
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  27. Jt0323

    Jt0323 Fins Up! Luxury Box

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    considering White was a free gift with the Taylor trade, id say not much
     
  28. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    Did we really need a long term QB prospect early in the 2nd round when we had Pennington and Henne and various other positions to fill?

    And even if we did need it, did we need an undersized one who was known mainly for his ability to run and not throw the ball?

    Sorry to say, but he's not a long term QB prospect anymore (even if that was the intention). Say what you want about being a rookie, the 5 passes he did attempt were horrendous, as were his passes in the preseason. He has no future as a QB in this league. I can confidently say that after only his rookie season, and I always try to give rookies the benefit of the doubt.

    So to answer the question, No I don't think it set the franchise back because we had another 2nd round pick and used it wisely IMO, but it was a complete waste. Unfortunately I see nothing more than bust from the PW pick
     
  29. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    If we want the WildPat we had better spend some time this offseason and preseason preparing the guy for success. What we did last off season and preseason directly led to his lack of progress and our poor start to the season IMO.

    Trading Ginn is not going to make us better. We need to use him in the role he was made for and then suddenly we'll have one of the most dangerous players in the league returning all our kicks and complimenting our #1 and #2WR's. We simply havent used him in his best role on this team.
     
  30. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    That's a terrible way to look at it.

    We made a strategic move to get a high draft pick.
    To get a valuable asset which can be used to build key pieces of your team.

    I don't give a crap how you get that asset, if you waste it once you get it, it's a failure and the ramifications of such definitely put you back.
     
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  31. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    While I'm happy with Thigpen, he doesn't "cover" the White debacle.....because he wasn't free or part of the package. He cost us a 5th rounder. So basically, last year we spent a #2 and this years 5th, to the fill the #2 QB spot.

    Turner I won't rush to final judgment on just yet, but I will say it doesn't look good. I really don't think he was that good of a prospect to begin with and a reach where he was drafted. Him not panning out wouldn't be a shock to a lot of ppl.

    The White pick was as stupid as anything I've ever seen even Wanny or Cameron do....and maybe not so much the pick itself but how they projected him and the role they had in mind.

    And I can't see how wasting a #2 and possibly a #3 can be called anything but a set back. It puts us in a bad position this year and if we don't have a banner draft, missing on those picks will become even more magnified.

    When you have many holes to fill, there are cardinal sins on draft day........like drafting a KR/ developmental WR in the top ten or using the #44 overall on a situational player. You just DON'T do that and when it comes back to bite you in the ***, you can't be surprised.
     
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  32. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Yeah, the Pat White pick is gonna be very difficult to justify. It's upsetting for a couple reasons: 1) He looked horrible and not equipped for the NFL (obvious) and 2) His being drafted was based on a philosophy I don't agree with.

    The NFL is a passing league. I didn't mind the Wildcat last year because it gave us the best chance to win. Hell, it gave us a chance to win a few games this year we had no business being in. But you drafted Henne in Round #2 the year before to be your Franchise QB. Why muddy the waters with a spread option QB in the second round the following year?

    We'll never know, but I'd love to get on answer what exactly they were thinking.
     
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  33. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    I couldn't agree more. :up:

    Returns on the invest in '09 were basically nothing. Future returns are TBD. So, we'll see. But, the impact was felt by not drafting an impact player at a position of greater need IMO.

    I'm sorry, and with all due respect...I couldn't disagree with you more. How we got the pick is irrelevant IMO. How we use it is all that matters. If Pat White ends up being a bust, then that pick was a huge missed opportunity regardless of how we acquired it.

    To the OP, and to the question of how far did those two picks set us back? Well, being that we were in the playoff hunt until the last game of the season, and being that we lost 2-3 games we should've won (and would've won with better defense IMO), you could argue those two picks cost us (or, at the very least contributed greatly to us missing out on) the playoffs. Looking ahead, who knows? But, it doesn't look very promising. At least, not to me. It's starting to look like Turner is a real project, who may never develop into a NFL caliber WR (much less a true #1 or #2). Although, I will say this...I would've loved to at least seen him in a game or two (to see what he's got). And, I think most realists realize the Pat White experiment is over. Or, at least should be. Not only because he failed miserably in limited action, but also because we now have a bigger and better version of Pat White in Thigpen.

    When I look back at last year's draft, I distinctly recall many of the talking heads being very surprised by both picks. Mayock even used the term "reach" in both cases IIRC. Definitely remember hearing that Turner was projected in the later rounds. And, it now appears (although, yes...the jury is still out) they were right. IMVHO we need to draft much better this year. We need immediate impact players, especially on defense. No projects. No luxury picks. Players that on draft day are looked upon as either likely starters at the position they are drafted for, or at the very least players that look to be competing for starting status or significant playing time. If we don't accomplish that, if we have another miss or two (especially in the early rounds) I believe we are in trouble. This draft has been referred to as the best since '83 as far as overall talent. Our draft position is good. Now, we just need the the Trifecta to make it happen.
     
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  34. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    Did they hurt your eyes? (I admit I was having a problem with them, lol)

    Those were simply the players we lost due to drafting Pat Turner. The list of good players we missed in drafting Pat White is larger and more important.

    And I do think that having a good pass catching TE could have made a difference for us. I think drafting the two Pats over two better players could of cost us a couple of games.

    As far as a long term QB prospect, in the 6th round we could of drafted two QBs that have a real future as a NFL QB (Keith Null and Curtis Painter).

    Then if we had needed a OT that bad we could of taken Phil Loadholt or Max Unger in the 2nd round instead of A.Gardner in the 6th.

    We could have Clint Sintim, Connor Barwin or Paul Kruger and we would not be looking for a strongside OLB this year.

    And we would not need another QB.
     
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  35. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    Feels like a 'spilled milk' conversation. We going to start threads on how Shawn Murphay set us back? You could make similar threads for every player that we drafted and let go. Or is still on the roster in Jason Allens case :)

    Rookie QB played badly? That is hardly a news flash. Lets give White some time to work on his mechanics and bulk up. It is the QB position.. everyone is willing to give a rookie QB time unless his name is Pat White it seems.

    Everything I have heard about this guy has been positive. You combine Pat's natural skills, attitude, and work ethic that he will find a way to contribute to this team. WR, QB, or a combination.

    It's not like this guy is 5'2" slow and fat. He is 6' quick and a play maker. Let him get adjusted to the NFL game. After years 2 and 3 in the NFL we can have some concrete discussion.
     
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  36. NorFlaFin

    NorFlaFin Active Member

    Atleast 3 years at each position although I don't expect a backup QB to ever see the field.

    Now stumping the growth at different position can't really be measured.
     
  37. CashInFist

    CashInFist Well-Known Member

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    If people can call Pat White a bust after so little REAL NFL playing time, then the same should be said of those two underachievers you posted...

    Connor Barwin rookie stats:

    Games Played - 16
    Tackles - 14
    Sacks - 4.5

    Clint Sintim rookie stats (even worse):

    Games played - 11
    Tackles - 14
    Sacks - 1
     
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  38. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    Yup not great stats but still more productive than Pat White. Pat White might have been a long term investment but Thigpen seems to remove the need for him on this team. He became immediately expendable.
     
  39. CashInFist

    CashInFist Well-Known Member

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    Really? I saw Pat White deliver a few TDs and some long gains out of the WildPat formation. Did you see those? Those OLBs you mentioned showed nothing to think they will be Pro Bowlers...EVER...:pointlol:

    Thigpen looked great (remember the backup QB is the fan favorite on 80% of NFL teams) UNTIL he single-handedly lost the game for us. And also, Thigpen is not close to a rookie, nor close to a top-10 NFL QB.

    I have always thought that Pat White would be awesome at WR and WildPat. I think it is possible he could be a decent NFL QB, but I think the "Slash" role suits him best.
     
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  40. Big E

    Big E Plus sized porn star

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    Both of these players were rookies coming into a very complexed offense.
     

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