With Marshall on the Dolphins, why trade Ted Ginn?

And some "fans" want to trade that capability away for jack squat.

It's sad, really.

 

Fasano is one of the top 2 run blocking TEs in the league. He is not a weakness. We just need a David Martin type to compliment him. Incognito will likely be the RG, and as long as he can control his emotions, should be an upgrade. There are 64 starting guards and Richie is top 20 as a run blocker, so he is not a weakness either.

 

Depends. You have to usually trade value to get value. Bess IMO is a smaller version of BM in many ways. He has been our underneath move the chains receiver. That is one of the many things BM can also do. Hartline IMO would compliment BM better than Bess would. We could probably get a 2 for Bess. We'd be lucky to get a 5 for either Cam or Ginn. Just a thought.

 

24.9 isn't average. That tied him for 13th in the league amongst KRs who played in 10 or more games. Amongst KRs with 50+ returns, he had the 3rd best avg. Amongst KRs with 40+ returns, he had the 6th best avg. Explain how that defines mediocre.

 

They are not above Cam on the depth chart, yet anyway. Cam started all 16 games for us last yr. Our only WR to do so. He played the most snaps amongst our WRs. He started every game until he was injured the year before. Even missing 5 games, his combined snaps for the two seasons were the most on the team. The challengers, need to earn that #2 spot from Cam. Not just have it given to them.
There were 5 WRs in the league who played over 400 snaps and had no dropped passes. Cam was thrown at the most amongst those 5. Sure he seems unspectacular but IMO we should not be too quick to just cast him by the wayside.

 

I think it boils down to is TG a "Parcell's type guy", I think the answer is probably no and therefore get what you can for him because it's better than cutting him. I think if you plan on cutting Ginn or letting him go as a FA when his contract is up then sure trade him even if it's for a 5th round pick.

Also is this the final excuse for TG? The running excuse Ginn just needs "X" and then he will turn it around/flourish.

First it was Penny couldn't throw the ball deep enough for Ginn. Then we got a rocket arm QB and it turned into Ginn can't beat a #1 CB consistently. So now that excuse is gone with the addition of Marshall. I HOPE TO GOD HE PERFORMS AT WR, but all the excuses are now gone.

Look I completely agree that players need to be put in a position/role that will give them the best chance to succeed. So maybe this is the role for Ginn ( being a number 2/3 WR), but if he fails to perform this year as a WR then I don't want to hear anyone mention the words "but" and "TG" in the same sentence.

Keeping him as a kick returner is a great idea as long as his contract is a par with kick return specialist. But I have a feeling we can get someone to do that job for cheaper and eventually have the chance to blossom into a quality WR like Welker.

PS: Nobody is mentioning a minor issue which I believe is true is that TG's run blocking is less than stellar, BTW.

EDIT: To all those arguing that Ginn avoids contact because he is relatively small/light. That is fine, but the ultimate question isn't whether Ginn 'should be' tough. The ultimate question is there a role for a player like that on the Miami Dolphins, and if so what level of productivity does that player need to have? Personally I say there isn't much room for that on a Parcell's team ( just my personal opinion, but I don't know Parcells mind of course ), but if there is then that player needs to be very productive. Also Welker is small but I don't think anyone would argue Welker is not tough. Ginn isn't tough, subtle diffence, but a big one in the long run. Ginn just looks scared on the field to me, I can't put my finger on why I get that impression.

 

Couldn't agree more! I truly love me some Greg Camarillo, the savior of our 2007 season but if we are talking, trade value, saving money, and or draft position pick up then we must talk Camarillo or Bess. Ginn and Bess make about the same, give or take a thousand, while Cam makes double that of either. Cam and Bess have better trade value and I'm sure we could get a higher pick if we are talking the draft right now. Cam's hands are money in the bank but Hartline and Bess are no bums in this area. Cam on most other teams ends up being their Wes Walker type guy, only better, imvho. Cam is also the old man of this group.

Turner ends up PS imo and we line up with:

Marshall
Hartline
Ginn
Bess

As our WR group, with the BM pick up we become the terror of the AFCE, yet if you replace Ginn with Cam we have just lost our deep threat and, I predict, those two games we can win against the Jets now become either a split or even worst two losses. We must have deep speed and only Teddy gives us that, also its his fourth year and I'm betting he won't disappoint.

 

Gee whiz...does the world revolve around Teddy Ginn? Seems like everything the Dolphins do ends up with us all coming here and posting threads about how it's going affect Ted Ginn. LOL...

In all seriousness, I can definitely see this argument from both sides. On the one hand, having a true #1 WR like Marshall should open up some passing lanes for our other WR's. Ginn, with his speed, should likely benefit from this most of all. Ginn was not, is not now, nor will he ever be a #1 WR IMHO, so this is his best opportunity to shine moving forward. Factor in his return skills, and yes...you have an excellent argument to keep him.

On the other hand, his drops and penchant for avoiding contact at all costs are well documented. Which begs the question...why keep a player that our opponents views as soft? Is that the mindset you want your opponents to have of our team? Moreover, is that the mindset you want permeating our locker room? Do we want our new #1 stud WR to see Ginn running out of bounds because he's afraid to take a hit, thus setting the example that it's OK to take the easy way out? That it's OK to worry about yourself first, and the team last? Do we really? Well, I know I don't.

There's another factor, and that's Ginn's current trade value. Just like buying and selling stocks, you don't want to buy high and sell low. So, if we can't get anything more the a late round pick for him (currently), or are faced with cutting him, then put a gun to my head I'd have to say keep him...for now. But, if we do keep him, if I'm right, if we're all right, and Ginn enjoys his best season as a Dolphin in '10, you better believe if I'm Jeff Ireland, my top offseason priority next year is moving Ginn for the best value I can get for him. I truly hope Ginn's future as an NFL player is with another franchise. And, ASAP.

Just one man's humble opinion.

 

Just wanted to throw in a thread from a year ago talking about Ted's improvements from year two with Penny as his QB.

http://forums.thephins.com/showthread.php?t=21229&highlight=Ted+Ginn

Be advised this is only one of many and only from the mains. If I were to throw in those from Club (which I can't/won't here) the numbers would be well over 10 threads. All of which say pretty much the same.

I also want to add I did NOT pick this thread to show up any member here or in Club as I count all of you as friends.

The point remains that even the Ginn haters had come around to admitting Ted could/would help this team. I would also point out many wanted to put a #1 guy opposite Ginn to increase his potential (as Marshall now does) as a deep threat.

It was also pointed out in out of those threads that Ted only had 3 drops in 2008.

 

I don't have personal feelings for Ginn. I'm frustrated by his playing ability. I value consistency a lot. Did Ginn play great against the Jets? Yes. But then what about Indianopolis or New Orleans when he dropped game winning catches. Ginn had the 3rd most drops of a WR in the league. That drives me nuts. I value a slow guy who catches a ball every time than an inconsistent speedster. You can count on Davone Bess and Greg Camarillo. Youknow exactly what they are going to do. You can plan for their strengths and weaknesses. You can't count on Ginn. You never for sure which one you are going to get. He plays more often like the loser WR in the Indy game than he does the stud in the Jets games. So if you had to bet the safe bet is for him to suck.

No, he's horribly flawed and inconsistent as a WR. I value consistent production and seeing him on the field each week wondering if he's going to play decently or if he's going to drop another ball in the end zone frustrates me. i'd rather watch Camarillo manage to catch another ball between his legs.

 

3rd out of 7. 6th out of 13. Average. You Ginn apologists are living off of one game against the Jets, that's it. Throw that game out and his numbers are well below average. Good riddance to Ginn. The day of his release can't come soon enough I'm afraid. But once he gets traded for a 7th, and that 7th goes to a real KR/PR like Trindon Holliday or Brandon James, and/or we get a better speedy WR who can't do jack**** but run up the field real fast (dime a dozen in the draft), I'll be happier than a pig in ****.

 

yeah....sucks how he won that game almost single-handedly

but it's not just one game....you could argue that we don't win any of the last 3 Jets games without Ginn.

 

You do realize he caught 11 balls in the Indy game, right? You do realize that the ball hebdropped at the end was thrown late, and he was open much earlier, right? I mean, you act like the only time he was thrown to that game he dropped it. The reaction after that game disgusted me. He had a great game, and the Ginn hates here wanted him dead...as if he was the reason they lost.

 

I am no Ted Ginn (or his family, for that matter) fan. I gave him the benefit of the doubt until last year when his inconsistent play cost us games. But now that Marshall is here and there is all this talk about dumping Ginn for whatever we can get I am starting to ask why? It seems to me that as a #2 type he could be very succesful. Without the pressure of having to be the #1 guy and benefitting from not drawing a defenses #1 CB he might flourish in that type of situation. Of course he needs to fix his drops and grow a pair still, but with his type of speed we might finally be able to put him to good use.

And like the original poster, there is no real value in dumping him cheap.

 

So we should keep him because he's a Jet killer? Sorry, but no. He sucks against 30 other teams in the NFL. Thank god we have 4 much better WR's on the roster. No more having to worry because such an awful WR is on the field. Good riddance, hopefully some idiot is willing to part with a 7th.

 

Lol. If those stats are true that is a gem. 3rd sounds great until you add 'out of 7', 6th sounds impressive until you add 'out of 13'.

I love when people try to massage number and leave out some rather important information because it destroys their argument.

Like I said, if this is true, that is a hell of catch on that R&R.

 

Thanks and I agree. 3rd in the league in KR average of players with 50 KR's sounds impressive, until you come to the reality that it's only 3rd out of 7...

However these types of stats are typical of Ginn apologists who refuse to acknowledge Ginn sucks as a WR, and is an average KR living off of one game.

There are 4 WR's better than Ginn on this roster. Ginn is not going to steal snaps from Hartline and Bess, because he's not 1/10 the player they are. Ginn can run fast in shorts all he wants to, he sucks as a WR, and that's a fact. He'll never amount to anything either, but most of us already know that.

 

his ability to take a KR for a touchdown makes up for average....averages.

I've seen him score 5 KR touchdowns....3 negated by penalty. He's also returned a punt 80+ yards for a touchdown...can you ever imagine Bess doing that? I can't.

that alone is worth more than a 6th round pick.

I've also seen him connect on long TD passes, that have proved the differences in games.

I've seen him take end arounds for long touchdowns.

Now, I've also seen some drops that could have been catches, but you see that out of EVERY WR. He had a bad year with drops last year, with 10 , but as of now that is the anomaly....

in 2008 he had a drop % much lower than Brandon Marshalls, and barely lower than Davone Bess. In 2007 he was credited with 1 drop in the 6 games I saw stats on.

Now I'm not saying he is their equal....just that he's worth more than a 6th round pick.

 

Just for the sake of argument, suppose that this FO has already decided that they are going to either cut Ginn or let him go in FA when his contract is up. In both cases Miami gets nothing for Ginn ( just like the Broncos for Marshall, Marshall is worth more than two 2nd round picks, but it was better to get something for him than to wait for when he is a FA and then he signs with someone else and they get nothing).

Same thing for Ginn. I would rather get a 5th or a 6th if he isn't going to be with this team long term, it's better than nothing.

I did say that supposes that the FO has decided they don't want Ginn long term. Nobody knows if that has happened or not except the FO. But I think there is a solid argument to be made that Ginn isn't a Parcells type player, and therefore he will be moving on from the Dolphins Franchise.

So there is a very logical and solid argument to trade Ginn for a 5th or 6th round because you get something for a player you were going to let go anyways.

 

What ability to take it to the house? He has no ability. He goes to the sideline on literally 100% of KR's. Teams stacked the sidelines, rendering Ginn useless because he can do nothing up the middle of the field. Face it, teams know how to stop Ginn, and he's never going to go up the middle, ever. Can he get lucky every once in awhile? Sure. But he doesn't have the balls, nor heart to ever be anything useful. I've seen Ginn connect on long TD passes once in a blue moon too. Boy what a playmaker he is!!!!!!! Ginn has never been known for having good hands. So what if his drop problems were an anomaly, which it probably wasn't? Still is a poor route runner. Still struggles to get off press. Still is dumb as a box or rocks. Still has no heart, and no balls. Unfortunately, Ginn isn't even worth a 6th round pick and I'm hoping we can get an idiot like Al Davis to bite on even a 7th. Ginn is useless and will be out of the league in 3 years tops.

 

IMO, if a 6th round pick is the something than, no...I'd rather just hold on to him and let him compete for a roster spot. I think he brings enough of what we don't have from others, mostly homerun return potential, and the ability to run past a defender, that he'd have a good chance to make it. Camarillo and Turner would be much more likely victims, IMO because we have other similar players.

 

R&R...you kill me. You exagerate his shortcomings, and lessen what he's good at. He's not as bad as you make him seem, and he's not as good as some others make him seem.

 

I could care less about appoligizing for Ted Ginn but what I see you doing requires some attention.

You're making half this stuff up because you just don't like him... shame shame...

 

What am I making up? Please be more specific. I can't help it this forum is chock full of homers and Ginn apologists as opposed to the other forum... But I can assure you I'm not exaggerating or making up anything.

 

So would you agree that the Broncos made a mistake? Because Marshall is worth more than two 2nd round picks. And there isn't anyone on the Bronco's roster that can do what Marshall does.

The bottom line is if you are Pacell's and Ginn wasn't on the Dolphins and was available would you trade a 5th or 6th round pick to get him? If yes, then you keep him. If no, then you trade him away.

I am torn. I think he is a solid kick returner but I feel like you could use that slot to groom a player while they are KR. Similiar to Welker who turned out to be a beast at WR, but he stayed on the team initially as a PR.

 

For starters you act like Ginn is known to have bad hands. I he hadn't been dropping balls last year, I wouldn't care about him trying to get out of bounds. He's of zero use if he leaves the field on a stretcher like Pat White did.

 

Two seconds for a guy is much much different than a 6th or 7th for a guy. Two seconds can get you two STARTERS. A 6th or 7th is almost never going to get you a starter. A 6th or 7th probably wouldn't contribute as much as the much maligned Ginn.

 

wow....he is so god awful at absolutely everything...

how the hell did he make the team the last 3 years? how has he scored on 5 KR.....how did he even keep his KR job. you would have thought that Lex Hilliard surely would have been the better option...no doubt he would have followed your fool-proof strategy of running straight up the middle on a KR.

 

no. 2 2nd round picks is MUCH more valuable. They needed to unload him and they got a good deal considering....

6th and 7th round picks are pretty easy to come by...we have what...3 of each?

 

Lex Hilliard better? No. But Trindon Holliday and Brandon James sure are.

 

We went from talking 5th and 6th round, magically to 6th and 7th. How did that happen? BTW, Jeff Darlington mentioned they were trying to get a 4th for him. So I don't know where the 7th round pick show up.

I would trade Ginn away if we were going to cut him or not resign him. You wouldn't. That's cool.

I don't know if this is good or bad for me but Keyshawn seems to agree.

http://www.cleveland.com/ohio-sports-blog/index.ssf/2010/04/miami_dolphins_have_cleveland.html

 

So Ginn is a starter this year somewhere besides KR? You are saying he is our #2 WR? I hope he is. I have a feeling he ends up at the #3 WR position by seasons end.

 

crossed conversations probably....

I've said that I wouldn't want to trade him for less than a 5th. so I am arguing that I don't want him traded for a 6th or a 7th.

now...if the FO already knows he is not in their plans, then yeah you get what you can....but since we don't know that for sure, you can't really decide based off of that.

right now I think that they are just looking if they can get value for him....like Ronnie Brown. not gonna just dump him, but if a team offers value, then they would do it.

 

I think we are mostly in agreement then. That is all I am saying.

Don't get me wrong. I am very frustrated with TG, but I WANT him to succeed. It would be the best for the phins.

 

I have to agree. We couldn't get much compensation but we would save money. The biggest thing for me with him is he is afraid of contact. Probably why he drops the ball so much.

The problem with that is you assume he'll catch it. I would rather have a sure handed receiver with balls.

 

He ranked 10th in KR average, so......

 

There are 8 players, including Ginn, who had 50 plus returns. He was third in KR average. Do the math. That's above average.

You say take out the Jets game, and he's not as good. You can say the samething about every player in the NFL.

 

Naa, you defenitely are. You just don't want to admit it. It's funny how all of us are homers, yet you're the only one who brings up "facts".

 

Ginn is a kick returner that can score on any kickoff. That makes him a very GOOD kick returner. end.

 

The first two sentences are made up. "He has no ability to take it to the house", yet he is one of only 3 returners that had more than 1 return TD last year. He also had 4 returns of 40+ yards, which was top 6 in the league. The vast majority of returners had 0 40+. All that with the Dolphins horrible special teams blocking. He doesn't take it to the sidelines "literally 100% of the time.” You are making things up. It’s like the myths that he cannot go over the middle, beat press, etc…


He had a significant problem with drops for the first ½ of the season. He hasn’t shown any sign of living up to a 9 overall status, but he is still has value. Ginn hatters get silly, denying his return prowess is a sign of that.