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Baseball

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by Boomer, May 5, 2010.

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  1. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    What's it all about?

    I'm reading Michael Lewis's Moneyball and I just don't get it. I don't get the terminology; single, double, fly ball, ground ball, base hit, 3-1 when someone's pitching, pinch hitter, designated hitter and why does every draft pick go into the Minor Leagues and what's the difference between the miners and Double AA?

    I see games on ESPN America and there's a LOT of hanging around. But the terminology......and who holds a draft over the telephone? And how can the Commissioner own a team? What of Goodell owned the Falcons? That wouldn't be fair would it?

    Would it?

    What am I missing?
     
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  2. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    I understand what all those things mean and i still don't get it
    baseball is a boring game :wink2:
     
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  3. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    I think it's horrendous but I can help with some of the terminology.. if i'm wrong someone who watches it will correct me. i used to play as a kid and have been to a few games, but i don't care for it anymore.

    single is a base hit. it's when the guy goes to the first plate.

    double is when the guy goes to the second plate.

    fly ball is one that's up and out but not far enough to be a home run. it's usually an out, but most of the time it's sacrificed for a score.

    ground ball is a ball on the ground. it's usually within the diamond of the ballpark and usually an easy out.

    3-1 is 3 balls 1 strike if i recall correctly. a batter gets 4 balls before he gets walked on base and 3 strikes before he's out. an inning has 3 outs and there's a top and bottom to every inning (that way both teams get offense and defense on the field) and there's 9 innings in a game.

    pinch hitter i'm not sure but i think it's just a substitute.

    designated hitter.. i know what it is but it's kind of hard to explain.
     
  4. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    1st base
    2nd base
    3rd base
    home plate :shifty:
     
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  5. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    base, plate. they're all shaped the same.. or close enough to it
     
  6. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    it is by far, the most intelligent, most intricate sport there is. The regular season can be unbelievably boring though.

    The book you are reading is a book based on the general manager philosophies of Oakland A's general manager Billy Beane.


    As far as the draft....a baseball team has 25 roster spots available, they have a AAA, a AA, a A-ball team as well as about 3 rookie ball teams where developmental players go.

    it is rare, but it does happen where a draft pick goes into the majors in his first year.

    The problem with projecting amateur talent into the majors is that the difference between the leagues (amateur and Pro) are so VAST. Players need maturing and seasoning.


    But that book is a great one.
     
  7. vmarcilfan75

    vmarcilfan75 blah...blah...blah... Club Member

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    single-When the batter reaches 1st base after a hit
    double-When the batter reaches 2nd base after a hit
    fly ball-When the ball is hit in the air
    ground ball-When the ball is hit and rolls on the ground
    base hit-When the Batter reaches the base safely

    3-1 when someone's pitching- 3 BALLS and 1 STRIKE. Announcers always mention Balls 1st

    pinch hitter-When a player who hasnt played the game in brought in to bat and replaces other player for remainder of the game. Mainly for strategy. Team may need a fast player to get on base or maybe use a left/right handed batter vs. left/right handed pitcher

    designated hitter-(American League only uses this) the Pitcher doesnt bat at all during the game. National League the Pitcher has to bat(unless theres an interleague game NL vs AL. Rules apply to hosting team)
     
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  8. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    :shifty:

    i will agree though playoff baseball is much more exciting. and going to games isn't half bad. i got a chance to see the phillies during their year when they won the series. it was pretty cool to sit at home and watch lidge close out on his perfect season and the team get a championship
     
  9. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    This.

    Playoff baseball has serious tension and great history. Might be the best playoffs of all the major sports.
     
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  10. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    hockey imo :up:
     
  11. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    Hockey is a bloodbath to get to the cup.

    The NBA playoff intensity makes watching the regular season worth while.

    The NFL has a great sense of finality..but way too random for me.

    If I had to rank them overall it would be like this as far as playoffs:

    1. Hockey
    2. Baseball
    3. NBA
    4. NFL

    what can be said about Hockey and Basketball is that the BEST team ALWAYS wins. While in Baseball..it is the HOT pitching staff that brings a champion through and as far as the NFL...it is basically whatever the football gods decide.
     
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  12. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    I cant help it if folks think Baseball is boring...some probably find other mentally fulfilling activities like Chess boring too....says more about the person then the required strategy and action really. A lot more about the person judging and lacking the ability to comprehend the enjoyment of the action. Regular season or post season, MLB is the best, most pure strategy sport created.

    Also, keep in mind, in Moneyball the book was really about new STATISTICS (which is perhaps more important, or atleast emphasized more by those in Front Office MLB Management trying to judge the worth of a player to fit a team model, etc) that potentially could aide "SMALL MARKET" teams especially (but not limited to them only) in finding batters that achieve a higher on-base % then other like players. And if possible these players may be more affordable to accomplish the one simple goal in baseball...{successfully work your way around the bases and ultimately touch home plate just 1 more time then your opponents}.

    The Moneyball theory is that if you find high On base % guys, while keeping your payroll within the means of your city, you could successfully compete with any other team even those from larger cities where payrolls vary (no hard Salary Cap exists in MLB only a LUXURY Penalty that is paid by high payroll teams and spread equally to all other teams).

    The unwritten problem (with no Hard Cap) is that many of the smaller teams have not actually used this Luxury Tax income to invest into the product on the field, and thus they still lose players during free agency after all. While OAK was the model for the book, other teams like MIN Twins (another "small" market club) continue to compete successfully. The Florida Marlins were verbally reprimanded about investing back into the club, and this off-season actually signed several pending FA, and locked them up longer term.

    Moneyball's emphasis is mainly on the Hitters side of the equation....with Baseball the opposing quality of the Pitching Staff can negate many of its approach. The old saying goes, Good Pitching beats Good Hitting!
    It is a fact that the hardest thing to do in Professional Sports is hit a Pitched Ball!

    Simon, I think you would actually really enjoy Baseball once you comprehend the basics. Moneyball will not teach you the basics.
     
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  13. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    :lol: baseball is the purest sport around
     
  14. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Reminds me of the old Joke about the Scotsman that went to his first Baseball game......

    He sat in the stands and watched the first few Batters make contact, hustle out of the batters box, run hard and either successfully make it to first base, or be thrown out, upon each attempt he sat in amazement as the folks around him Cheered and yelled in support of their man. The chants of "Run hard, or, get the ball", would engulf him..he really started to get into the action.
    When a subsequent batter took the 4th straight pitch out of the strikezone and proceeded to slowly make his way to 1st base, the Scotsman stood up and yelled, "Run, Run hard"....the patrons, chided him and informed him that the man could walk as he had 4 balls.

    At which point, the Scotsman, stood up and yelled "You have 4 balls?, Walk Proudly, my son!"
     
  15. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Moneyball would be a very difficult read if you don't understand the terminology. I never thought about it before, but I can see how that would frustrating.

    To my knowledge, Bud Selig did not own the Brewers when he was Commish, but after (could be wrong there though). Up until last year Major League Baseball owned the Washington Nationals, who were once the Montreal Expos. Once the team moved to DC from Montreal, it took a while to find a buyer.

    The whole point of the book is that Billy Beane, A's GM, used an advanced statistical analysis to evaluate players before drafting and/or trading for them. His teams, although low-salary for the most part, were successful although never made it to a World Series.

    I always tell people that baseball is the "simplest, purest game there is, but the hardest, most frustrating one to play."

    As for the part about the Minor Leagues, because the talent gap in a 18-21 year old and and 28-34 year old can be huge, you don't see guys making the leap from high school or college right into the pro's. Sometimes it happens, but not often.
     
  16. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Oh, saw Section explained the Minor Leagues a bit. One other thing I'd add is that there is also "Rookie Ball". This isn't considered AA or AAA, but like a rookie instructional league for recently drafted players.

    More often than not, the best talent is in AA. A lot of guys in AAA are older players, or guys who just can't seem to make the jump to the big club. However, the hitters there are usually more exprienced and have been in the minors alot longer, so you'll see pitchers go there to make a couple starts before they get called just so they can face some borderline Major League talent.

    Sometimes you'll see a top prospect (mostly hitters) skip AAA altogether. Brian McCann did it for the Braves IINM.
     
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  17. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    You might want to stop reading 'Moneyball' and pick up a very basic book on baseball first. Something like 'Baseball for Dumbies' type book that way you can get a good quick overview of the sport along with the terms to help you better understand it overall.

    Moneyball is a very advanced baseball book, so I can definitely understand how someone would be lost reading it. It's not a good choice to read unless you really understand the sport well. And even then, I know some people they love baseball and understand it but still don't fully get the book and what it's about. Even some guys in baseball (cough Joe Morgan cough) don't even get it.

    That's correct. When Selig took the commissioner job he had to sell his stake of the team. The rules prevent a commissioner from also being an owner of a ball club for obvious reasons.
     
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  18. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    As I read Moneyball years ago when it came out, and could be foggy on the details, I think at the time all of MLB owned the Expos...prior to them being sold to DC and becoming the Nats.

    So it could be the Expos that is being referenced that in fact all the owners in effect ran the Expos????:hi5:

    And prior to Selig taking the role of Commish, he did so, only after no Commish existed and the Owners wanted someone they trusted....he turned over the ownership and day to day running of the MIL Brewer's to his Daughter upon taking the permanent role of Commish. Still the Commish is often viewed as the REP of the owners in their group position against the Union. MLB owners didnt feel the last few Commish really did that...right or wrong....and Selig to his credit has done good by the game (for the most part) from Union and Owners perspective during his tenure.
     
  19. TiP54

    TiP54 Bad Reputation

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    I understand it, but still don't like it.
    I can see WHY people like it, but it doesn't do it for me.
    Biggest issue i guess I have is doping.
    Reports come out about these allstars failing tests in their prime, and nobody says anything. To me, thats unacceptable.
     
  20. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    I wouldn't say that. A pretty big deal was made about Roger Clemens, Manny Ramirez, A-Rod, and David Ortiz. Not to mention there was a hearing on Capitol Hill inolving Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa, among others.

    It's actually football that people don't care about when it comes to steroids. If it came out tomorrow that Tom Brady or Peyton Manning were on the juice, I guarantee you it wouldn't be half the story as it was with those guys I just mentioned. Shawn Merriman barely made headlines when he tested positive.

    Not to say it isn't a stain on Baseball, because it is.

    One other way to look at it is that after the strike in 94, baseball was nearly dead. Attendances were at all-time lows, and baseball needed a spark. Then Sosa and Mac started going ape****, and all of a sudden the game was back. I'm not saying that makes it right, nor am I happy those guys did it, but I do think it's part of the reason Baseball looked the other way for so long.
     
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  21. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Oh ok, then yes that's true what you stated. MLB did own the Expos after seemingly a big 3 way trade of owners. John Henry, was the current owner of the Florida Marlins, bought the Red Sox and sold the Marlins to Jeffrey Loria, who owned the Expos. The Expos were without an owner so MLB took over paying the normal expenses that an owner would until they found someone to buy the team from them.
     
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  22. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    I think part of it might simply be time.

    As a kid/teen, I loved the hell out of baseball along with every other sport. Sports, fantasy sports and video games were my life.

    As I'm sure is the case with a lot of men, your plate gets full and your time becomes filled with other responsibilities. So you unconsciously start whittling down to what you really love most. I slowly weaned off everything and just got down to football, MMA and maybe boxing. Haven't touched a video game or fantasy sports in a decade.

    I think the strikes and the astronomical salaries probably helped disenfranchise me from the game. That and the Marlins getting disassembled in '98. I couldn't care less about the game now. I went to a Rays playoff game a couple years ago and was just bored. Even turned down World Series tickets.

    Admittedly I got hyped up again when the Marlins made their run in 2003. Probably more about it being my old South Florida team than anything else, but that was fantastic.

    If I had to rank the Big 4....

    1) FOOTBALL
    2a) Basketball
    2b) Hockey
    4) Baseball

    Hell I enjoy watching golf more than baseball now. :lol:
     
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  23. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Time as in length of season I can understand, but its one of the reasons I love the sport more than any other...the quality all year long (then again I am Yanks fan:wink2:)....the Avg Length of MLB game (approx 3hrs) is really no more than the 1pm to 4pm football mentality on a given Sunday, etc. But gets a bad and bogus rap really. The fact that game has no CLOCK, I love.

    And while fans of Football wont bat an eye at spending an entire Sunday watching 3 games over the whole day.....and even taking into account the amount folks watch Football on your Sunday, Monday, Thursday or random Sat pro game, not including Sat College, it always seems the 162 game, 26 weeks of Baseball, that folks tune out and claim is too long.

    But for me, its exactly why I tune it...I love that aspect even more than 17 wks (16 reg season games) of football.

    I think MLB is also the greatest Fantasy Sport as well (Mixed Roto rocks over those 26 weeks of actions, daily or weekly transactions).

    Real or Fantasy MLB, the length of the season separates the wheat from the shaft better than any other.

    My Rank of the US 4:
    1) Post Season Baseball
    2) Regular Season Baseball
    3) Regular Season Football
    4) Post Season Football
    5) Post Season Hockey
    6) Post Season Basketball
    7) Regular Season Basketball
    8) Regular Season Hockey

    P.S. I would put World Cup Soccer @ #5 and move the rest down a tick respectively, but only World Cup
     
  24. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

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    I hate it when people call baseball boring. That's your opinion, that's fine. But it is absolutely not boring. If you need instant gratification and shiny things flying around at breakneck speeds then maybe you won't like baseball. Every single plate appearance is a battle of wits and skill between a pitcher [assisted by his catcher] and a batter. Add runs and games at stake and the situations get even more intriguing. There's not much in sports more exciting than a batter up in the bottom of the ninth with runners on base, two outs, and the game on the line. If you're lucky enough to be at the ballpark for that, the atmosphere is electric. I can't think of a bigger bang for my buck in sports.
     
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  25. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    I really believe Baseball is a sport that is tough to get into if you weren't into it at a young age.

    I'm sure there are exceptions, but I doubt someone who's never had an interest in the game is going to pick up at an older age.

    I played the game for MANY years, so I'll always love it. However, I can understand why some think it's boring. There are many idiosyncrasies and nuances of the game that the casual observer won't pick up. It is similar to chess in this way. Sure, the main object is to score more runs than the other team, just like taking your opponent's king is the object in chess. Pretty straight forward. But there is so much more strategy involved.
     
  26. TiP54

    TiP54 Bad Reputation

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    That's my point.
    They juiced and they failed tests while they juiced...but nobody talks about it untill they are finished playing. Who cares what happenes now. We are talking about GREATEST of their sport getting caught in the act, and nobody saying anything at the time. They can talk all they want about it now, what difference will it make?
     
  27. Lab3003

    Lab3003 Golden era

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    For all of Beane's statistical know-how...when the A's pitching declined, so did their wins and so did his value, IMO. Binefest is a much better GM, 2010 bullpen aside.
     
  28. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    MLB didn't drug test PED's until a couple years ago. Those tests that were leaked were done so illegally. It was a actually a federal crime to leak those names.

    When Mac and Sosa were doing it, Baseball did not have a PED policy in place. So if anything, they weren't breaking any rules. Laws, but not rules. I don't agree with them doing roids, but in a hyper-competitive professional sport, you have to know guys are going to take any and every advantage they can.

    Now, if you wanna say MLB should've tested earlier when they knew what was happening, then I agree. But what's done is done. It's a stain, like I said. They made their beds.
     
  29. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Moneyball is more a book about statistical analysis then it is about baseball. It explains where to look for competitive advantages where it seems like there are none.

    The terminology can be confusing when you are new to the sport, especially when youre not watching it to understand the situations while its being announced. When an announcer says "3-1" the 3 represents balls and the 1 represents strikes. So the announcer can say "1-0", or 1-1. Full count is when there's 3 balls and 2 strikes on the batter. Its basically announcing the situation much like down and distance in football. The minors is basically baseball's equivalent of college football...its where you go once drafted (post high school or post college) to prove youre ready for the next level. There's probably about 2-3 too many levels.

    Last year MLB held its first televised draft. Ive heard though not confirmed that the last few rounds are drafted via email now. Surprised its not in a chatroom :lol:

    For me personally, baseball is a part of me much like football. Playing growing up, I have fond memories pitching through high school and traveling around New York on teams. It can be incredibly boring to some people if you dont understand the game but each pitch creates a new pitch and can create different game situations. You need to take an analytical approach to truly appreciate it in my opinion.

    Nonsense, a plate is something you eat off of stoopid! :tongue2:
     
  30. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    thats why arod said he used roids up to 2003 or whatever :lol:
     
  31. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Untrue. Barry Bonds was dragged through the mud while playing. Syringes on the field? It's the NFL that gets the pass.
     
  32. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    :knucks:

    Nothing like watching a game, and knowing, "oh he has to throw a curve here" and a curve comes. Or, "hes taking this pitch" and the batter puts the bat on his shoulder. Knowing when the coach is going to send the runners. Once I watched enough baseball to know all that, the game was so enjoyable.
     
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  33. Layfield

    Layfield New Member

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    I believe that there are steroids in other sports (like basketball) and the league just chooses to cover it up. Baseball got outed by mechanisms other than itself (like Canseco) and after everyone knew about it then did they start announcing test results.
     
  34. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    One of the reasons that it doesn't matter if the commissioner owns a team is that there is very little advantage to take and Baseball is at or near the top when it comes to sports ingrained with integrity. It's a game for "purists" .....

    There's very little show-boating.... get a great hit or home run and then celebrate too much or show up the other team or pitcher and you WILL get hit by the very next pitch, in your very next at bat. Even if it's next year.... you WILL pay for it, regardless of consequence. Pitchers and coaches alike do this, knowing full well that they will be tossed from the game.

    The beauty of baseball is that they change a rule or add something new about once every hundred years... and although football fans are catching up because of more information being available now, an avid baseball fan has always been far superior in his knowledge of the game, than say an avid football fan. Generally speaking... every community in America, no matter how small, has a baseball park.

    A lot of us that have at least a pretty good knowledge of the game, were given baseball gloves before we could walk or talk.... and can't really remember when baseball wasn't a part of our lives. Probably very similar to how you guys are raised on soccer

    Football in recent years has over-shadowed baseball but it can never "be" baseball....Baseball was pumping out American heroes and legends for decades before football actually started getting it together, professionally.

    Even if Football has won and Baseball never finds itself on the top again and no matter how popular football gets, baseball has been part of the definition of this country for a century.... it's mythical. And I'm not sure there's another sport that has a better history/story to tell.


    Myself and others here will go over some terminology and try to explain the game if you're really interested in understanding more about it, It will deff help you enjoy it more. It'll take a while tho...lol,,,Given the kinds of things about football that interest you, I'd imagine you'd love baseball as well. Another sport that has many different positions to assess....

    Either way, next time you're over here find a batting cage and try and hit some balls. Especially if you've never done it before
     
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  35. High Definition

    High Definition No Smoke / No Drink 2011+

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    I don't think I've ever watched a full baseball game in my life... and I've been to quite a few.

    What does that tell you?
     
  36. Roman529

    Roman529 Senior Member

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    It's all about the Philadelphia Phillies....no other team is worth rooting for. :yes:
     
  37. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Either that you have the attention span of a 3 year old or you wanted to leave early to beat the traffic. Maybe both?
     
  38. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    You have bad luck going to Marlins games?
     
  39. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    the fact that it is not boring is your opinion as well. which is also fine.

    i can list several reasons why i think other sports are much more entertaining and the end game scenarios are much more appealing to me. to me a goal line stand in the waning minutes of a 4th quarter after an opposing team has spent the past 10 minutes playing ball control offense and carving your defense to shreds only to be stopped literally inches from where they need to be gets my money.

    we're both right :)
     
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  40. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    You wanna know why Baseball isn't boring? I'll tell you why:

    You ever seen a team score 5 TD's in the last two minutes of game to win? No, you haven't. You wanna know why? Cause it's ****ing impossible. You can't even do it on Madden. Even a video game knows that's ridiculous.

    But, I've seen a team score 10 runs in the last two innings of a game to win. Baseball is the only sport (wait for it) NOT on a timer.

    You tell me watching a team storm back isn't exciting. Take a knee at the end, PFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTT!
     
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