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Why christianity?

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by TrueDolFan, May 18, 2010.

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  1. eric

    eric New Member

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    i made a short and simple answer that you took in the wrong direction. hopefully that clears everything up. read this one more then once if it helps and think about it before you put words in my mouth and argue against a narrow minded opinion of me again.
     
  2. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I did read it any number of times as did others. I will take you at your word that you meant no offense. That said, I would also ask you to review what you write. That I drew so many "wrong conclusions" and my reading was "applauded" by others may in part because I have a history in this forum but it may also speak about your writing style and word usage.

    Perhaps it is your nature or the way you habitually express yourself. The language sounds flip and condescending. Your use of "fairy tale" to describe all religions may not be offensive, condesending, insulting, dismissive, or demeaning in your world. It is in mine and will generally viewed as such in this forum, based on the history of what folks write here.

    Oh and by the way, before going to seminary, my first college major was molecular biology. I have also served as a hospital chaplain and been part of life and death decisions regarding patients. Science and I are old friends. I do not substitute it for God, I simply treat it as a way God has revealed Himself within the universe.
     
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  3. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Here is some unsolicited friendly advice.

    Your communication is only as effective as it is understood.

    It is not up to the person who you are talking to, to figure out what you said and the intent. It is up to you to get it across. You already know what you mean. They cannot read your mind. On a forum it is much worse because he cannot read your body language or listen to the tone of your voice.
     
  4. emeraldfin

    emeraldfin All I've got is insane

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    As someone who grew up Catholic, the one thing that I found over the years as I have drifted away from it is that I have never been able to completely disassociate myself Catholicism. Any time I think of my faith and in particular death, something always tries to bring me back to my original beliefs. I dunno how to describe it, it almost seems that when it seems that I am about to slide into complete skepticism regarding Christianity and God, something in my mind will always try to convince me that I should not be thinking this way and that I should remain faithful to the religion I was born into.

    I dunno, maybe its a fear of death and that believe in Christianity will give me solace in the fact that something lies ahead after this life. When you reach total skepticism then that is it, there is no meaning to life, you are just another organism waiting to die and rot into the ground. Your entire life means noting, no soul, no higher being, no meaning, just eternal nothingness.

    Oh how I wish I had compete faith in a mono-theistic (or even poly-theistic) religion. If that was the case then I would not have to concern myself with the depressing uncertainty of what lies next.

    But to get on point, I do believe that for anyone raised into a Christian faith, it is difficult to turn your back on it. Even if you disagree with its dogma or doctrine, it is very difficult to seperate yourself from it socially.
     
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  5. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, the Human Experience is not that different from person to person Emeraldfin, to me the key is to separate out the essential from the fluff.

    That is my issue with religion, or philosophy in general, why all the bells and whistles be it Icons or Koans or a sort of sneering cynicism about it altogether?

    To me, an examined life is worthwhile one if one gets my meaning?
     
  6. eric

    eric New Member

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    my point was that i never made ANY of the claims you accused me of. you tried to read between the lines and got it wrong.

    maybe i should have just published a book instead, but im too lazy. i made a short and sweet answer that only covered the parts i wanted to cover. you made assumptions about me and my beliefs and intentions based on my short answer. you definately made the wrong assumptions.

    you could have answered my post in any number of ways. you could have pointed out that not all believers are brainwashed or in it for the money and power. i would have agreed with that.
    instead you claimed that those were my beliefs, when in fact they arent.

    i can admit that the "fairy tale" part may have been a little jab...in your opinion. but hey, thats all in how you look at it because you believe it and i dont. if i called paul bunyan a fairy tale, im sure you wouldnt mind, ONLY becuase you would agree with me on that one.

    if you refered to the story of creation as history, i would probably be offended by that. i would definately disagree with it though. but that doesnt mean you were making an attempt to be disrespectful, condescending or dismissive. i wouldnt write up a response presuming to tell you what you meant by that statement. i wouldnt fabricate and argument on your behalf and then take opposition to things you never actually said.

    i may have said things you didnt agree with. but i certainly didnt say ANY of the things you accused me of saying. i want to apologize just to apease everyone but i feel like i cant do that because i dont recall doing anyhting wrong. i cant feel sorry for expressing my opinions. then having some one else take a stand against them and assume they know everything about me when they clearly got it wrong.

    im not sorry for what i said. im sorry for the way it was viewed. i think the confusion about my "writing style" is that i didnt strattle the fence. i covered what i wanted to cover. the negative parts of things that i dont like. i neither stated nor implied the things you accused me of.
     
  7. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    IMO most people come to their beliefs based on what the are taught rather than through an honest and rational assessment. This doesn't just apply to religion (every religion) but everything, what sports team they follow, how kids should be raised, etc. In my experience, those that can honestly and without bias examine their beliefs are rare.

    I have no doubt that the vast majority of Christians would believe a different religion if it had arisen during the time of the Roman empire. Their road building and breadth was the perfect vehicle for the spread of religion. Christianity benefitted from good timing. This is not a slam on Christians or Christianity. I am not assessing that religion's validity compared to any other religion's validity. It's more of a comment on human nature.
     
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  8. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Hooray I'm rare!

    My dad is even a Cowboy fan.
     
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  9. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Eric, I think I will let Dol-Fan Dupree's comments sit for both of us. It is any individual's responsibility to make themselves understood. I did not ask for an apology and did not expect one. We clearly will not agree.

    I will pledge to you that I will continue to read you carefully but I would also expect from you that you will weigh what you say so that you communicate what you intend and not leave it out there for myself and others to have to interpret.

    Writing on a message board takes work to do it well and be understood.

    Let us both continue to work towards clear communication.
     
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  10. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I am in complete agreement with your second paragraph. Even the early Christian writers understood they lived in a unique moment in history that allowed travel and communication over what is even today a substantial distance. Not only were roads available and relatively safe but between Greek in the Eastern empire and Latin in the West there were common languages to communicate in (hence despite Jesus likely speaking Aramaic, the New Testament was written in Greek).

    Regarding your first paragraph, I am less sure. This may be a function of age and the place I am in life. Being a 57 year old parish pastor, I do speak regularly with folks who are examining their journey through life. As folks age, I find a fair number of them become more reflective about religion, politics, philosophy, etc.

    A couple of years ago I would likely have agreed with you immediately, today, at my age, I am less sure.
     
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  11. eric

    eric New Member

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    religion, as we know it today, would not exist with out people. if no PERSON ever told you the story of any religion, you wouldnt know it. if you didnt read it in a book written by another PERSON you wouldnt know it. it is not something mankind sought after and discovered on his own. its all here say.

    bottom line, faith is nothing more then a person having faith they were told the truth.

    why do we have so many religions now? why were there even more religions before. why are there new religions still appearing. its because people have a natural curiosity. if they cant discover the answer, they will make one up that satisfies them. it doesnt have to be the truth, it just has to be good enough for them to accept. not everyone can accept the same answer. not everyone is GIVEN the same answer.

    churches used to teach people that the earth was flat.
    churches used to teach people that the earth was the center of our solar system.
    churches used to teach people that the earth was the center of the universe.
    hitler used to teach germans that jews were bad.
    innocent women used to be burned at the stake or tortured to death because someone told someone else they were a witch.


    just because someone tells you something that doesnt mean they told you the truth. and its not some one elses fault if you yourself dont question it.

    if i adopt a child that would have been christian, but teach him judaism instead, does that mean he was somehow chosen to be jewish? i suppose it does, in your own mind, if thats what you WANT to believe. some christians might believe that child was chosen by the devil to be driven away from the glory of god. its all a matter of personal perspective. you are not thinking clearly when you are told or limited how to think.

    if some one spends the first 30 years of life stealing from others and murdering people, then we lock him in a box and give him a bible for the next 30 years.... im not going to petition for his release from prison because he accepts jesus christ now and says he feels bad for what he did. im not going to believe that he is worthy of some sort of eternal bliss in an after life or freedom.

    just as, if there is some benevolent citizen out there who does charitable deeds and doesnt harm others or break laws and rules.... im not going to try to convince him that he will suffer eternity in hell because nobody ever told him about jesus christ.

    its 2010. we know alot more now then we did when religion came into play. we know the earth is round. we know its not the center of anything more then our civilization. we know the only differnece between jews and germans is heritage and/or religious beliefs. i HOPE we all know there is no such thing as witches, werewolves, vampires and tooth fairies.

    i dont believe one of my best friends died because god wanted him up there next to him. i know he died because he tried to out run a cop on a motorcyle that he had only been riding for a few weeks. deep down i know it may never have happened if i didnt help him find and buy that bike. it also wouldnt have happened if he didnt try to run. it wouldnt have happened if we werent leaving mcdonalds at that exact time going down that exact street . it wouldnt have happened if his boss asked him to work a late shift that evening. it wouldnt have happened had he hurt himself enough dropping the bike early that same day.

    what if doesnt mean as much to me as what is. what if i see my friend again some day? sure thats a nice thought that might make you smile for a minute. but i know he isnt coming back. and im not betting on going anywhere.

    is my grandfather going to recover from cancer because he prayed hard enough or because god wants him to survive for some reason we will never able to understand or control or even influence?
    no. he probably should not have smoked cigarettes for 50 years. maybe nobody should smoke. maybe they shouldnt because we KNOW it causes cancer. just like hitting a wooden fence at 90 mph might cause head trauma, even if you have a helmet on.

    thats the difference between science and faith. it wasnt their time. it wasnt some uncontrollable destiny. those individuals made mistakes that cost them the ultimate price. its something we all need to look at, accept, learn from and pass on.

    maybe in the future, fewer people will die as a result of crashing motorcycles or smoking cigarettes. we can all be taken out at any time anywhere by anyone. be it because they are being thoughtless, careless, or malicious. i just dont think we need excuses for people to have less responsibilty or accountability. man kind is lacking those two traits enough as it is.

    i dont want to die in a head on collision because some girl said "jesus take the wheel" at the last second.... all because she was texting while driving and not watching the road. i want her to understand that you only have ONE life. be grateful for it. everyone else only has ONE life be considerate of that.

    i want her parents, her teachers, her driving instructor, even her friends to teach her to be carefule and considerate of others. teach her to keep her eyes on road. and watch out for others. not only can you hurt them by not paying attention, they can hurt you. our safety and security is not out of our hands. it's in ALL of our hands combined. we ALL need to pay attention. think about how things affect other people beside themselves. stop looking for ways to seperate ourselves from others.

    when mankind discovered how to create or influence fire how far do you think we ALL would have gotten if the first one, or few, used that fire against other people?

    how far do imagine everyone could get if he shared that fire with others instead?
    taught them how to use it and cook with it.
    how to control or extinguish it and what damage it can do if left unchecked.
     
  12. eric

    eric New Member

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    completely respectful, and respcetable response. definately not the same as i was getting from you originally. thats where the monkey throwing feces comment came from.:knucks::knucks:
     
  13. TrueDolFan

    TrueDolFan Minion of Satan

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    :tantrum:

    Dude, if you want to convince people of how right you are and how they're wrong about their chosen religion, please start a different thread. Like I said before, that's not AT ALL why I started this thread. All you're doing by continuing to beat this dead horse is making yourself look like a prick.

    PS, nobody is going to read a post that long...
     
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  14. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    From what I have learned of human development, they are examining their journey through life, through the filter that they developed in their first six years.
     
  15. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Computers, as we know it today, would not exist without people. If I have never seen a computer or read about a computer, I wouldn't know it existed. I also wouldn't create one.
     
  16. eric

    eric New Member

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    but people did create them. some people some where wanted to create something that does what a computer does. and they invented computers...
     
  17. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    churches also kept a lot of the writings alive during the dark ages.
    The churches have not always been wrong on science.
    As for the flat earth teaching:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

    As for the earth being the center of the universe keep in mind the church were not the only ones teaching this.
     
  18. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I understand what you are saying and certainly you are correct that is the textbook answer.

    In my existential experiance however, I think some of the questioning that TrueDolFan is asking about is also going on. Folks are asking not only about their own journey but about the nature of the journey and how others have navigated it.

    We may be saying the same thing from different angles, I am not sure, but I do see an increase in seeking behaviors as some folks age and it is not only about them.

    I buried my Mom in '92, my Dad in '01 and my wife in '04. As I passed my wife's age and near the age my Mom was at her death, I look back on the choices they made and the circumstances that befell them. Where is/was God in all that? How did the witness of my family's life influence my choices? Am I a Christian because I choose to be, because of them, because God has called me? What percentages of each? Where is God in the creation, I believe He made/makes?

    TrueDolFan, please know, at least from this Christian, the questions never stop, the examining never stops, the quest never stops.

    Not sure it helps but..........
     
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  19. TrueDolFan

    TrueDolFan Minion of Satan

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    I think we can both agree that it's always good to have questions. I am glad that you are the type of person that takes his faith seriously enough to even pose these questions in the first place.
     
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  20. Fishweiser

    Fishweiser New Member

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    So is there a way to thank this entire thread??

    Seriously, this may be the most civil discussion about religion anywhere on the net!! There has been a few moments, when reading, I had an "oh boy, here we go..." kinda moment, but some how or another, things worked out nicely!! Im really appreciative for it all because there is some very interesting and enlightening posts here, and its not all cluttered with a bounch of spit and venom which is usually associated in these sort of discussions.....Just thought it was very much worth mentioning....
     
  21. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Those comments above are what I was going to say. I agree that many and possibly more than ever, are seeking answers. I just don't think/find that many are able to separate their biases.
     
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  22. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    What a delightful way to state your case Fin D.

    BTW you have both my thanks and respect.
     
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  23. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    This is likely a semantic point and I am not sure I am disagreing with you. To me the word "bias" carrys with it a pejorative value. It implys negativity. That just may be my way of using the word. I would say what you said except I would change the last word from bias, to life experiance.

    Not a big deal but a meaningful one for me.
     
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  24. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    Now after reading thru the assembled post TDF I will add my humble experence to the list.

    My very early years were spent with no or very little Church attendance that I can recall. I do remember one Sunday vividly because of the spanking I received because I couldn't sit still, as little boys are prone to do. I was about 4 or 5 at this time. At about age 8 I was introduced the the Methodist faith and fully opened myself up to its teachings. I must also say I've always been curious about the differences in each religion and was, at one time, very attracted to the Catholic faith and had alot of talks with my stepfather who was taught by Jesuit priest. After joining the Navy I set about on my road to learn about every different religion I could, the Navy being a great place to do so, because one is exposed to all sorts of experences and ideas. I wanted to, and did, open myself up to every possible path, I took "seek and ye shall find" to heart.

    I have come to the belief that I believe in God with Jesus as my savior. I don't put alot of stock in organized religion because of the "My way is the only way" theme that some, if not most, profess in some form or another. At least that has been my experence. I also have to agree with Fin D and others that we all travel in different paths and imvho there is no "Most people think or are clubbed into believeing" at least not those with whom I have contact.

    I have come to the point in my life where I try my dead level best to respect every other persons beliefs as I hope they will respect mine.

    Thank you so much for asking and allowing me the time to answer you.
     
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  25. TrueDolFan

    TrueDolFan Minion of Satan

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    This, in addition to the Golden Rule, is what people need to learn to do. Imagine how much better and more positive things could be if everybody could learn this.

    The great thing is that it's universal. Regardless of what you happen to believe, this works for EVERYBODY.
     
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  26. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    It does, but I also think it's reality. IMO bias is very difficult, if not impossible to escape. I focus a great deal of attention on why I believe what I believe in order to avoid my own biases. I'd like to think that b/c of that focus I'm less prone to bias than most. However, reality is that I'm surely not immune to it and I may actually have as much or more bias than most. I don't believe that means we shouldn't try to be aware of and try to escape our biases. It just means that most and maybe all of us don't.

    And I'm not just talking about religion. I'm talking about everything, but that of course includes religion. One example that may illustrate the point I'm trying to make is related to racial biases. I read about a test several years ago that looked at the relationships that people made between people of different races and certain concepts or words. Some of the words or concepts had positive and negative connotations. The conclusion was that in general the vast majority of people related more negative connotations with the black race. This included people who thought of themselves as fair and racially sensitive. It even included many, maybe even a majority of blacks, although I can't recall those percentages. They attributed this to cultural influences. Of course, it wasn't just limited to blacks. There were biases related to every race. The article I read was actually written by a black guy who was bothered by his results on the test. He was somebody who strived for objectivity and he worried that it meant he was a self-hating racist. He ended up concluding that he was still a generally objective person, but that he was human and that meant that he had certain gut reactions he was not aware of. Being a thinking man meant that he didn't have to follow those gut instincts of course. But it also reminded him that we all have biases and that usually we're not even aware of them ourselves.
     
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  27. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Seeing how braodly and non pejoratively you apply the concept of bias, I have no problem with the way you have applied the thought in this discussion. Thanks for the explanation.
     
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  28. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I wanted to avoid bias in my application of the term. :wink2:
     
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