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Imho, we would win in 2010 even without Brandon Marshall.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, May 20, 2010.

  1. LandShark13

    LandShark13 New Member

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    He has to much talent not to return to form. At least thats what I'm going to keep telling myself :sidelol:
     
  2. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, we have young veterans at OLB in Q and Anderson, as well as Wake, toss in Dansby for Ayodele, and team speed on defense has improved.

    As for team speed on offense, depends which package is put into the game, but expect to see the R+R express in heavy doses as they can run, and they also wear down defenses.

    Hartline was a hurdles champion, BMarsh isn't "fast" via stop watch time, on the field though, he does just fine, so does Greg Camarillo.

    As I've heard said "the Orca 5 will eat defenses alive".

    :D
     
  3. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    you have created some big battles with you opinions here but i can't argue with this post. :up:

    it is an honest forecast and i'll agree
     
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  4. LandShark13

    LandShark13 New Member

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    I have no problem with it either bro. 80 catches for under 1K yards and 6 tds. Not a world breaker but he doesn't have to be. Those stats alone will net us 2-3 more wins over last year.
     
  5. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, I've been hesitant to say this, however Marshall is going to have a gang of TD's, maybe 15, maybe more, I doubt he catches 100 passes, I do think when we get inside the 20 yd line, Marshall will have plenty of chances to convert TD's.

    Without BMarsh the pecking order then goes to hartline who knows how to get open in the redzone, and Fasano, who also knows how to work himself open, but knowing Sparano, we drive the ball down to the 10, then maybe, only maybe, try to throw for a TD "if" we did not have Brandon Marshall.

    Recall that Fasano had 8 TD's in 08, there is no reason why he couldn't duplicate that in 2010.
     
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  6. late again

    late again Senior Member

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    Again, you're seemingly just looking for trouble. My post was not comparing one to the other.
    I would have thought it was pretty clear what I was stating. Nonetheless, my point was this: You were making Spiller's speed a point of emphasis. I merely countered with the fact that Ginn also has speed but was less than stellar. Now once more, this is not a comparative statement. What I am trying to say is that there is more to being a success in the NFL than speed. And that maybe we should hold off on all the accolades until Spiller does something in the NFL. After all, isn't this what you keep insisting we should do with Henne?
    Now back to my post where I mentioned the two together....why not respond to that one? The one where I mentioned you were willing to speculate about Spiller, but thought we were being unreasonable for doing some speculating of our own about Henne.
     
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  7. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Sad as it is, Ginn was the "#1 Wr" in Miami.

    Until the Saints game that is to say.
     
  8. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yep, simply because we have -0- problem driving the football down the field until we hit the Red Zone, that is when the offense struggled and stuff like Ricky Williams throwing a ill planned Halfback pass that was intercepted by the Bills happened.

    With Brandon Marshall, das Phins have a "go to" Wr in those situations.
     
  9. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Most ppl realize that you can't compare the QB position to RB..... you can just plug a rook RB in and go.....QB's take time. And it's nice to be one of the 3 AFC East teams that actually have one.
     
  10. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wagon Circler, put it on NFL Network.
     
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  11. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    How does Brandon Marshall replace someone that's on our team, though? It makes no sense. He replaces Ginn because 1). Ginn was our number one receiver and 2). because he is no longer here.

    Also, padre's logic makes sense. Marshall will get more opportunities to score now because we will get more RZ chances than he had while he was in Denver.
     
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  12. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Gotta admit though rafie, having Marshall on the Dolphins makes that strategy much much easier to think about, putting it on Hartline/Bess/Fasano is no where nearly the sure thing that having Brandon Marshall is.

    When you have a stud, things are much much easier even theoretically.
     
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  13. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If bess will no longer receive the amount of passes he used to wouldn't that mean Marshall is still receiving the amount of passes he used to, as well? Meaning, his production will still be 100 catches, 1000 yards, and 10 TDs.

    Now, if you say it's because we are a running team, consider this. Marshall is a very good blocker. That's a plus for the running game. The opposing team will not stack the box with 8 players, which is another plus for the running game. The offensive line has been upgraded, which is yet another plus for the running game. This offense will drive down the field using the running game, and play action passing setting up our receivers and Henne for big plays.

    Now, a better running game and more explosive plays this seasob will put us in many red zone opportunties. And that's where Marshall will cash in. His size and skill will make him a perfect target for Henne.
     
  14. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    This is just a stupid post. Marshall plays out wide, Bess is the man in the slot. Just because Bess caught more balls than Ginn and was a more frequent target than Ginn you're saying that Marshall is replacing Bess? Get real. It's like Welker and Moss- two players at the same position but playing different sub specialties. Do I really have to explain something so obvious? Ginn was sent packing because Marshall replaced him as a deep threat out wide/#1 WR and because he sucked- Ginn was probably the worst #1 WR in the NFL. Your argument makes zero sense. Hartline/Camarillo are #2 type WRs- they replaced Ginn in the lineup because Ginn was stinking up the joint and there was no one else left to replace him. They are both non #1 types that were forced to play #1 WR because Ginn was so ineffective- in other words he stunk.

    As to Marshall cutting into other players' numbers- well maybe because he'll draw double coverage he'll give the other guys MORE opportunities to produce- RBs, WRs and TEs. It's called synergy. More 1st downs, more running yards, more passing yards, more TDs, more time of possession. Look at it that way- or better yet just watch the 1st game against your team when more likely than not we'll dominate the Bills in both time of possession and final score.
     
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  15. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I believe you mis-understood my points postings...

    Those that I stated were not those teams Offensive Points per game for the year...and I have my data from another reliable source as ESPN, but I believe it seems that you mis-understood my posting earlier...

    They were points scored against other teams that year... In other words, Balt, Colts, Pit, Philly and others had games where they scored the same or more against other teams (not just Denver)...

    and in those other games, those Offenses averaged more points per game than against Denver...

    and you were the one that stated that using games against KC and Oakland would skew the stats in Denvers favor and I showed you that removing thos games you still ranked as good or better on some of the rankings I showed...

    but let me show you the whole enchilada, since my short posting was not taken into context...

    Two of the six games below had allowed Special Teams and Offensive Turn Overs for TDs...

    23 Points Allowed by the Denver D Against Baltimore...NOT 30...

    Let' us start with a Baltimore's KO Return for a TD in that game... So against the Denver D Baltimore scored 23 points (NOT 30)..Baltimore scored 38 against KC, 31 against SD, 34 against Cleve, 31 against Minny, 31 against Chicago, and 33 against NE... That is a 33 points per game average... So Baltimore score 30 against Denver, well they were scoring at least that much and more against 6 other teams too...

    21 Points Allowed by the Denver D against Pittsburgh...NOT 28...

    Let us start with a INT Returned for a TD by Pittsburgh..
    Pittsburgh scored 38 against SD, 27 against Cleve, 27 against Minny, 37 against GB, and 30 against MIA... That is a 32 points per game average... So Pit scored 28 on Denver, well they scored at least that much and more against 5 other teams too...

    Washington, not much of an Offense, I admit, scored 24 against Phily, 30 against NO, and 34 against the Raiders... That is a 29 points per game average... So Wash scored 27 against Denver...

    SD scored 26 against Baltimore, 28 against Pit, 36 against KC, 31 against Phily, 43 against KC, 30 against Cleve, 27 against Cincy, and 42 against Tenn... That is a 33 points per game average... So SD scored 32 on Denver, well they averaged just as many points against 8 other teams too..

    Indy scored 27 against MIA, 31 against Ariz, 34 against Seattle, 31 against Tenn, 42 against STL, 35 against NE, 35 against Houston, 27 against Jax, and 30 against the Jets (SB)... That is a 33 points per game average...So Indy scored 28 against Denver, well they scored at least as much or more against 10 other teams too...

    Philly scored 38 against Carolina, 34 against KC, 33 against TB, 27 against Washington, 40 against Giants, 24 against SD, 27 against Washington, 34 against Atlanta, 45 against Giants, and 27 against San Fran... That is a 33 points per game average... So Philly scored 30 against Denver, they scored more than that against 6 other teams too...

    So was Denver's D as a great D, IMO NO, and I believe no one around here has stated that, just that it was better than what we had here last year...

    Did Denvers D gave up LESS big plays than Miami's D with less talent around them? Absolutely, and most around here would agree with that...So if it is not the players than it must be the coaching...

    and continuing on..In Accordance with NFL.Com Stats...

    These numbers are corrected because you have stated that Oakland and KC were bad teams and would make the Denver's D stats skewed by them.. well it looks like these games did very little to have a major impact on it, some favorable and some not so favorable... Let's go on...

    Denver's D currently ranks 7th In Total Yards Allowed (310 yds per game)... Removing the KC and Oakland games (too avoid skewing the stats) they would ranked 10th in Total Yards (at 317 yards per game)...Miami ranks 22nd (349 yds per game)...

    Denver D currently ranks 3rd in Passing Yards (186 yards per game)... Removing the KC and Oak games, they would ranked 11th (208 yds per game)...Miami ranks 24th (235 yds per game)...

    Denver D currently ranks 26th in Rushing Yards (128 yards per game)... Removing the KC and Oak games, they would rank 12th (109 yards per game)... This was a noticeable correction, by just 4 games... Miami ranks 18th (115 yds per game)...

    Denver D currently ranks 12th in Points per Game (20.2 points per game)... Removing the KC and Oak games, they would rank 14th (20.3 points per game)... Miami ranks 24th (24.4 ppg)
     
  16. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It is not about opening the Offense, it is about making plays, converting 3rd Downs and scoring when opportunities were not there. We had no receiver that could catch a "Jump Ball". Ginn/Bess/Camarillo/Hartline don't have the size to be physical and come up with the catches... That is what we expect from BM...
     
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  17. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    i noticed this as well. but we don't know if Wake has the stamina to play like that for a full game every week. i"m optimistic about it. let's hope he does. we'll know soon! he should have a hell of a pre-season. i imagine he'll play the majority of it. let's hope he's good in game 3 against better talent.
     
  18. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Excellent post 'Nardo, Nolan's Denver Defense DID NOT shut down powerhouse offenses, they did however, keep them around their scoring averages.

    Our 09 defense did not even do that much, save for the Colts game, (27-23 wasn't it?) and even then the offense kept the ball for 44 minutes in that game, the Colts just scored points every 3 minutes or so, that is how poor the Defense was in 09.

    Nolan's performance in 2009 is what the Dolphins need in 2010, we do not need a dominant defense, though that would be great, we need a competent defense, as we will win Time of Possession in the vast majority of our games it is up to the Defense to not surrender quick strike types of scores.
     
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  19. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    You are on a roll this morning Nardo as that is exactly what he is in Miami to do, along with being a Red Zone threat.

    The whole thing works holistically, the Offense will control the ball and not turn it over and win ToP, that keeps the defense fresh as well as forcing opponents to become one dimensional, they will have to throw the ball, Nolan is very good at designing schemes that can control passing offenses, Special Teams enters in by covering kicks well enough that is forces opponents to generate long scoring drives and the return game has to generate quality returns that makes scoring easier via turning over field position on kicks and punts.

    A lot of the above had already been sorted out before Brandon Marshall was traded for in April, the only real hole is at Returner.
     
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  20. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Thanks for the complement Padre, and I am sorry I am not being my usual self today...:lol:

    We need to see how our Special Teams will play this year, as you stated KO returner will be something I would be looking at this year, as long as he does not go Out Of Bounds, I could be happy, but not thrilled...

    I also want to add that Points Allowed to Denver's Defense is skewed...

    There were 5 TDs that were either against Special Teams or Offensive Turn Overs...

    So really, 18.5 Points per game was the corrected stat (even though this is not used) ranks them at #7...
     
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  21. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    :D you are on a roll with the on point info Bro...:knucks:

    A good returner is worth 5 extra yards in field position and SHOULD be worth at least one TD and a couple of FG with long returns.

    Of all the units in 09, Offense, Defense and Special Teams, Bonamego's made the largest jump from #30 to #10 per Goose Gosselin's ST ranking formula and we added two Day 1 ST contributors in Dobbins and Spitler.

    That and Denver wasn't as good at ball control as the 09 Dolphins were:

    http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/average-time-of-possession-net-of-ot

    Miami was #5 and Denver #11, for our boy WC Buffalo was #25.

    The effect of our poor defense was especially evident in the last 3 games, we started all 3 down by at least 2 Td's in the first half, and our ToP dropped from 31:55 to 29:25 in the last game it dropped all the way down to 27:51.

    Looking at that set of statistics is causing some ponderatin' on my part, small wonder we saw the wholesale changes on Defense as well as on the interior of the Oline, Sparano WILL consistently win ToP just as a matter of Coaching Philosophy.

    Even more intersting is 8 of the top 10 in ToP made the playoffs, only the Dolphins and Panthers missed them.

    That is almost thread worthy in itself Nardo.
     
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  22. LandShark13

    LandShark13 New Member

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    it seems to me that WC is having a problem with the definition of replace so lets clarify that right off the bat.


    re·place:

    • to assume the former role, position, or function of; substitute for (a person or thing)


    So in order for us to replace something, something or someone has to be subsisted for something or someone. That seems pretty clear to me. In our case Marshall is replacing Ginn as out starting receiver.

    Also to go with the assumption that our stats next year will be identical to last year and we will somehow have to divvy up those numbers differently to different receivers is wrong on so many levels.

    You Bring in a talent like Marshall to help your passing game and to create mismatches. With him on the field you actually want teams to try and stack 9 in the box and try and single cover him.

    Beyond that though. Your not here to discuss football. If you were you would have seen some reason by now and at least conceded a few points. You haven't not because you think your right you haven't because you simply enjoy talking smack. However I find it funny though that a fan of not only the worst team in the AFC east but perhaps the worst team in the NFL (Bottom 5 for sure) would have the balls to do so. So mad props to you Bud.
     
  23. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Which is where you are wrong. Put 8 in the box, and we will pass. Marshall will have a safety over the top, which means Bess/Hartline will be single covered, which means their production will improve.
     
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  24. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    the obvious:
    he makes a very big difference in the final calculations
    on winning/losing, that's why he got the big contract
     
  25. LandShark13

    LandShark13 New Member

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    Honestly man you're becoming nothing more than a common forum troll.
     
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  26. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You do realize teams will pay dearly if they are stupid enough to play 8 in the box, right?
     
  27. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    [​IMG]

    You rang??
     
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  28. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    He does make some good points. Some valid theories.

    I don't mean to kill the banter, but I'd rather throw the 2009 defensive stats right out the window, as I expect the 2010 defense to be a whole new animal. Whether it's for better or worst remains to be seen.

    WC, don't overestimate speed just because you guys acquired The Spiller. Al Davis has plenty of speed out there in Oakland, and your Bills have had it in past years (the return-man from Miami). How you use that speed makes all the difference (Philly), and talent alone guarantees nothing.
     
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  29. LandShark13

    LandShark13 New Member

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    You're calling me a homer but you have yet to concede a single point in 6 pages. That's being a Troll.

    And finyank13 LMFAO! That's classic =)
     
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  30. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Which is fine, if we had even an average defense meaning middle teens in most categories, we would have made the playoffs in 09.

    We will see, I have a sister thread to this one that show the Dolphins Offense was really quite good.

    I dearly hope so Wagon Circler, BMarsh made most of his plays in situations were the other team blitzed, play 8 men in the box...please.
     
  31. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Amazing.

    Why are they NOT afraid of our attack now when we just acquired a top 5 receiver? Not to mention, we have Hartline, Bess, and Camarillo to take advantage of the one on one matchups they will be seeing this season.
     
  32. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    I thought we were talking strictly speed, sorry...
    Wait, you want big plays?

    Enter: The Usual Suspect
    [​IMG]

    "How big do you want it?"
    -Brian Hartline #82
     
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  33. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So you finally got it... Wahooo... We will finally have another average Defense again... being at the bottom of the NFL is not any fun right???

    and teams will still play the stacked box on us...but guess what, not as much as before and this time, with BM they will get burned by it more times than not...
     
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  34. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    BDawk is 36 yrs old, how long do you think he can play at a high level?

    They also added 36 yr old Ty Law and he played over 200 snaps.


    Their Dline was atrocious as well:


    http://www.profootballfocus.com/cstats.php?tab=by_team&season=2009&teamid=10&stype=a&stats=d

    The only good player on their Dline was Vonnie Holiday, and he couldn't make it in Miami.


    That is the reason for optimism in Nolan coming to Miami, the Broncos D did not have the pieces we have on Defense.
     
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  35. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    This is a portion of the spurious part of your line of thought WC, "if" it doesn't matter how old Dawkins is this year, then why are you continuing to say "your defense was horrible last yr" when 5 starters on it have been replaced in 2010?

    You are trying to have it both ways in that what happened in Denver last yr cannot happen in Miami this year, but what happened in Miami this year will of course, be repeated.

    Well now, let us extend that "logic" to 2010, we gave up less rushing yards per game last yr, so we had better run defenders so we will give up less rushing yards this year as well.

    Everything remains static in WC world when it is negative, but never does when it is positive.


    In 08 Denver's scoring defense was 30th in the NFL, in 09, 12th , gosh, that would be a 18 position improvement, according to your "logic" that is impossible as everythng stays static.

    5 starters on the 09 defense have been replaced for a start add in Dansby (recall him? I know they don't sign FA's in Billsland, out here in the rest of the NFL, teams do that from time to time) as well as getting younger and faster.

    Add in Nolan and his 18 position improvement in Denver, with far less talent, and there is every reason to rely upon improvement in the defense.

    Things do not stay static in the NFL WC, for example do you really think Byrd has 8 interceptions again this season?
     
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  36. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Thanks Padre, I could not say it better myself...

    Average is better than we were last year and that is with rookies learning the system...

    But, let Miami go under the radar again this year, and we will be able to go back to threads like these and say...I told you so...
     
  37. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yeah Bro, and it is only May, there are months to go and several serious competitions to be held for starting positions, the manner in which Sparano and Co churn the roster is difficult to explain but does produce results.
     
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  38. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Dansby and Edds added as coverage linebackers.
    Will Allen back at CB- great when healthy, we'll see if he starts. If nothing else he'll be a great 3rd CB.
    Wake and Misi added to pass rush.
    Starks and Odrick added to Dline/pass rush.
    Davis and Smith have a year of experience under their belts at CB.

    We won't be better against the pass? Get a grip.
     
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  39. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Speed is good if you have a OL to block....something which the Bills do not possess....
     
  40. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Denver in 2010? Lost me there dude.

    One did quote the 09 Denver stats pertaining to stopping the run.


    Or Denver's stats at stopping the pass will be true.

    Odd, there is not a single Rook penciled in as a starter, where is that coming from?

    FS is only a key position when they play poorly.

    Nolan had excellent success at pass defense.
     
  41. late again

    late again Senior Member

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    LOL, wagon circler is engaging in a lot of wishful thinking.
    Defenses WILL respect our passing game. Of that I have no doubt.
    Eight in the box?....good luck with that.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgEYUZaUItk"]YouTube- Brandon Marshall Highlights[/ame]
     
  42. late again

    late again Senior Member

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    Oh Okay.
     

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