In what sense? Money, ok I could see that sense it would make the most staying Cleveland, but winning? No way man, Miami is most definitely is the easy way out when it comes to winning. Actually I don't think you are familiar at all when Elway left Indy for Denver because he never left Indy for Denver, he left Baltimore for Denver. The Colts were still in Baltimore when he was drafted by them. And I remember it well and it doesn't even close to the level of hate Lebron has inflicted on himself. Now it don't mean Lebron can't make the average Joe Fan forget how he went about leaving Cleveland, but it does make his job of making fans forget much harder than you realize. Let me put it this way, how long do you think it will take for most Dolphins to forgive Taylor for leaving the Jets? I am still mad and I can tell you it will take some time for me to put it behind me, but I will. But I betcha there will be a core of Dolphin fans who will never forgive him for bolting for the Jets.
Sure, but I'm willing to bet one could make an argument that he belongs in that top ten as well. That is not overrated.
It is overrated if the media is constantly forcing the guy down your throat as "the best ever!!!!!" (or maybe second nest to Michael). He just isn't on that level. Although, I admit, for me MJ, Magic, Karreem, bird and Bill russell are just on a different plane than everybody else. Once you get past the top 5 there is plenty of debate as the space between guys gets smaller
In 5 years the only people who will care about what LeBron did will be people in cleveland and in 10, if Lebron cements himself as the best player on a multiple championship team, he'll be in the conversations when you talk about greatest players of all time. Just like now, no one questions Kobe's greatness eventhough he needed gasol, no body will question LeBron's in the future when we look back on his career,
Yeah but one can make the argument he will be on that plane as can lebron. The fact that you can make that argument or attempt to, should make you realize he's not all that overrated. He is blown up by the media, but some of that has to do with the media just being the media. Really, would any b ball player playing today deserve that kind of attention? The title of best ever? Not really. Especially while they are are still playing.
I don't think Kobe/LeBron/Wade, et al will ever get to that MJ/Magic plane, but that's just me. Regardless, I think where we're disagreeing is that I believe a player can be unquestionably great, while still being overrated, whereas you don't. Correct me if I'm wrong. Let's go back to Favre. Under your construct, because one could make a credible argument that he is the best QB of all time, that means he isn't overrated. I would vehemently disagree with you on that and I'm also willing to bet that you agree with me that Favre is overrated.
Ive known people that would argue magic doesn't deserve to be on that plane fyi . I think it depends how you look at overrated. You are saying the media hypes these guys, where as I look at it as a whole and take the media into less account as the media hypes everything really. In fact I'd argue thats their job to be eccentric and not black and white. For me to call a guy overrated I would have to see that the fans ( not just the fans of the guys team), the media, to a point, and all others hype the player, yet I see they are lets say part of a system, i.e. reggie bush. Favre is an odd argument because he's a good player, bordering on great. Its kind of hard to judge just how good he is. By your argument one could argue Muhammed Ali is overrated. We would say he was a great boxer, he changed the sport, one of the greatest, but he wasn't the best so therefore he is overrated. However, I am sure we would both agree, assuming you know a little boxing, that he deserves to be in the conversation as one of the greatest. Therefore he is not overrated. As for kobe I would probably stay away from calling him overrated for a few reasons, one being he is young. So the argument he wouldn't be on the mj, magic, etc plane is a bit premature as those guys are on that plane due to the impact they had on the sport as a whole and revolutionizing the sport as a whole.
I agree with you to a point, but Kobe isn't that young. It's much more likely that we see him diminish over the next 2-3 years than it is we see him do anything truyl spectacular, even if they win another title. And Ali, of course, is one of the greats, but maybe not the best ever, but it's tough to compare an individual athlete to one in a team sport.
It was harder b/c he would be criticized by people and the media. If he stayed he would have been the good, loyal kid. But if he wanted to win and have any chance to be mentioned in the same breath as Jordan, he had to leave. The more I think about, I think he's being criticized b/c people don't understand his motives. If he had left for more money, people would have understood. If he had left for NY or Chi for more media coverage, people would have understood. But if he sacrifices money and ego to win he gets criticized. I actually think that says more about what's wrong with the fans and media than about what's wrong with LBJ. I am very familiar with Elway's departure. I know the team was still in Baltimore when they drafted him. I've just been saying Indy out habit. IIRC they played well that last year in Baltimore and were cast in the same sympathetic light that Cleveland is getting now after Irsay moved the team in a Modell like, middle of the night move. The main differences are that LBJ is a bigger star and the media is much more pervasive now. And likewise, I think the anger against Taylor is misplaced. He didn't bolt for the Jets. He got kicked out by the Dolphins. His choice was to play for a team that wanted him or retire. If there are people who never forgive Taylor, and I'm sure there will be, then IMO they have very little understanding about what occurred.
I was listening to ESPN in the car this morning and one of the announcers made a great point. I can't recall his name and I don't generally agree with him (it may be Cowherd), but I thought his argument and perspective was sound in this case. He was pointing out how when Shaq left LA, the Kobe led Lakers were a sub .500 team the next year and around .500 the next couple of years after that. At the time the media was saying how Kobe couldn't win without Shaq. That he was never going to be considered great, yadda, yadda. Basically the same stuff that is being said about LBJ. Kobe didn't win again until he got Gasol. The only difference is that LBJ had to leave to get the superstar team mate every champion has needed. But that wasn't his fault. It's not his fault that Cleveland is a city other stars don't want to go to. He further argued that if you switched LBJ and Kobe this past year that the Lakers would still win the championship but the Cavs would win fewer games. I agree with him. IMO Kobe is the better finisher, but LBJ does a better job of making his team mates better. Kobe is more Jordan and LBJ is more Magic. I think that if we revisit this conversation when LBJ is nearing his mid 30s and hopefully has 5 rings to his name, that people will have forgotten all about Cleveland, just like people have forgotten that with a C grade roster Kobe was unable to get hi team beyond the first round.
That may have been Cowherd. I don't listen to him often, but I know last Friday's show he spent a good amount of time defending LeBron.
Pure homerism. Yeah Kobe never got MVPs. How many Playoff MVPs does Lebron have. How many rings? Has he ever scored 81 points in a game? sporting news has kobe over lebron http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/Th...nel_picks_kobe_bryant_no._1_over_lebron_james And since we're talking about Michael Jordan, Jordan says Kobe is better than LeBron http://www.playerpress.com/articles/10068-michael-jordan-says-kobe-better-than-lebron Hell even LeBron admits that Kobe is better. Only in Miami is LeBron better than Kobe. and like I said there was no debate when Jordan played. Noone ever said Jordan was second best. You cant compare LeBron to Jordan
You do realize that Sporting News article ranked James 2nd, even though he is 7 years younger than Kobe, right? You don't think what happens over the next 7 years of LBJ's career might change that ranking. did you also notice that D-Wade was 3rd on that list? I'm still trying to figure out how the best player in the NBA managed to miss the playoffs while playing on a team with Lamar Odom and Caron Butler. Two players, incidentally, that D-Wade dragged to the playoffs after an 0-7 one year prior.
Pure Haterism. Back to Back MVP. Playoff MVP's? LOL. Kobe has had ONE...ONE finals MVP worthy Finals in SEVEN TRIES. For that matter,,,is Kobe even Better than Dwyane Wade? To say that it is not debatable is Haterism at it's worse. I find it instructive, and a little amusing that for 4 years I have been doing my top 50 Player list in this forum and the other one as well, and for three years...the top 3 has been the same. Dwyane Wade has never been at #1, Kobe has been #1 a majority of the time, and over the last 3 years, Lebron has been #1 on and off. NEVER..EVER had a complaint. EVER. By having Lebron at #1. As soon as he signs with the Heat..all of a sudden it is a affront to God to say that lebron James is Better than kobe. I wonder what changed? Man..**** Kobe. Never has somebody come up so small in the biggest stage and has had his *** kissed by so many.
Only in Miami, and only in reality. The numbers dont lie. http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM
BTW...I love it that It is pure Homerism having Bron at #1 while I have had Lebron at #1 for an entire year. So am I psychic? Or was I a secret Cavs fan?
sure it might change the ranking. but we're not talking about the future. we're talking about today. the original point was a comparison of LeBron to Jordan which was absurd. As I have said there was never any comparison of some player to Jordan. There was never any debate where people took some player over Jordan. By year three or four in the league he had catapulted over Bird and Johnson and there wasnt any debate anymore. The fact that most people have Kobe over LeBron destroys the argument that LeBron can be compared to Jordan.
True, I forgot about that. Rudy T., a two time champion, wasn't good enough for Kobe after his Coach K dreams were dashed.
so michael jordan and lebron james say kobe is better but I'm supposed to listen to section. sorry, after you got beat out by an octopus in your world cup predictions i cant take you seriously. now if a squid predicts that lebron is better i'll listen
Paul Pierce won a Finals MVP because of the great defense he played on Kobe Bryant. Paul. Pierce. 6-24 in game 7. Losing by 167 points in game 7 vs. Phoenix. Failing to make the playoffs with Wade's second round playoff team, while Lebron took a bunch of stiffs to the finals. Losing by 6,789 points in the close out game vs. Boston. want to compare career playoff averages? Lebron is better. Season averages and efficiency? Lebron is better. we already established that Kobe has deserved One Finals MVP in 7 tries...so when exactly has Kobe been better? WOW, sure looks debatable to me. Want to say Kobe is better? Fine. Want to say that it is not even "close" or "debatable"? that is just stupid.
well my money is on durant in a couple of years. he cant be in the conversation yet but if last year is any indication we may have a new superstar in the near future
Dude..bad move. I predicted a Netherlands vs. Spain Final with Spain winning before the first ball was kicked off. Michael Jordan picked Dwyane Wade to represent his shoe. SO he is then better than Kobe right? it is one opinion, from a guy that proved to be a pretty crappy GM. So yet another bad move by you.
Only YOU care about that. Ricky Davis once thought he was a top 5 player...so he must be right as well.
i had spain too but you had at least one bad prediction on the way to the finals. ghana over US?. the octopus was undefeated
I'm not comparing LBJ to MJ. I'm comparing him to Kobe b/c you stated that Kobe was better while I've been arguing for 3 pages that Kobe is great, but overrated. The only people who care about comparing LBJ to Jordan are the people (mainly Knicks and Bulls fans, and those in the national media who are mostly Knicks and Bulls fans) who suddenly care about his "legacy" and that because of his choice to come to Miami he can never be compared to Jordan.
http://forums.thephins.com/showthread.php?t=49771&page=3 I thought the US was going to be a final 8 team. I was wrong. I can't be right all the time. anyway...keep hating. It is fuel.
Actually Wade should be in the conversation. Personally I hated Kobe for most of his career. I always thought he was overrated. Its only in the last couple of years that he has won my respect. LeBron is great no doubt but he simply hasnt done whats needed to be considered number one at this point. He obviously has the physical talent to do it but until he puts it all together in the playoffs he's second fiddle. He'll have more than enough opportunities. Its not like this is written in stone and Lebron cant leap over Kobe in a year or two. He needs to do in the playoffs what he's capable of. As of now he's lacking. He had some poor games in the playoffs and that's why in most people's eyes he's second fiddle
BTW...that 6-24 and his terrible finals came mainly against that defensive killer...Ray Allen. I mean...come on. This is ridiculous.
I agree with adam kevin durant and russell westbrook will be the greatest players to ever pick up a basketball. /end thread
Lebron had some poor games in the playoffs..(although he ended with some pretty spectacular averages) Kobe had a terrible finals. we are not going to agree on this...but I can guarantee that if Lebron was a Knick or Bull today, we would not be having this debate.
i stated most people outside of miami feel kobe is better and that was in response to an ongoing conversation comparing lebron to jordan. my point was if there is a debate as to who is better between kobe and lebron you cant possibly compare them to jordan. jordan sits atop mt olympus in a different stratosphere
You guys think paul the octopus is a joke, that is until the army of super intelligent octopi burn down your village and rape your women.
Stay classy Cleveland Sam Amico # Gloria James told Fratello that LeBron would never win under Mike Brown, pointed to Cavs' bench and asked Fratello, "You want that job?" 38 minutes ago via web # Gloria James yelled: F*** Mike Brown, F**** Danny Ferry. When Cavs fans booed LeBron in Game 5, she yelled F*** this place! about 1 hour ago via web # Just learned after Cavs Game 5 vs. Boston that Gloria James walked over to Mike Fratello and blasted Mike Brown. about 1 hour ago via web Who did you just "learn" this info from Sam? I get Cleveland is pissed, but jeez, leave the guys mom alone. I've moved beyond feeling the least bit sorry for these clowns and now I just hope that LBJ stomps them when we play up there.
I wouldn't say that most people feel Kobe is better. Jerry West, for one, has said LeBron is the better player.
