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***The Official Summer of '10 NBA Thread***

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by Boik14, Jun 15, 2010.

  1. gunsmithx

    gunsmithx Active Member

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    Couldn't have said it better.
     
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  2. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Why does everyone who doesnt agree with Heat fans have to be a "hater"

    Nevermind I know the answer too that.
     
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  3. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    This is not disagreeing. This is stomp your feet, angry tantrums while wishing ill.

    Thus....."hating".
     
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  4. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    doesn't Ricky play second fiddle to Ronnie when Ronnie healthy? So any way you cut it by your own analogy lebron is second fiddle. Apparently people in Miami believe that too.
     
  5. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    yeah by heat fans. If you aren't with us you're against us. Boo hoo. Im not upset with lebron because he chose Miami. I'm upset because he felt that he needed someone else to be the man.

    But that ok scottie pippen was a great player too. He just wasnt Jordan and that's who everyone thought lebron was. I guess lebron may have better scruples then we thought but he doesn't have what it takes to be the man.

    It's ok, Dwayne wade is still amazing.
     
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  6. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    I think all this "second fiddle" talk has been made up by Bulls, and Knicks fans to justify why he chose Miami instead of them.

    it makes them feel better to denigrate Lebron.
     
  7. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    sorry..we are enjoying this hissy fit by the rest of the league. Can't you tell?

    Boik. read my Sig. This "gotta be the man" talk is for losers.
     
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  8. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    That would be news to Tony Sparano, Dan Henning, and a good portion of the Dolphins fanbase.
     
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  9. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    What leads you to believe he will play second fiddle? Theres nothing to indicate that whatsoever.

    Why didn't Jordan ever want the challenge of winning without Phil Jackson? Why did he threaten to retire if he couldn't have Phil as his coach? Why did MJ have to piggy back on Phil Jackson?
     
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  10. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    You're entire argument is based on a false notion. This whole 'being the man' stuff is nonsense. LeBron's ability doesn't change whether hes playing next to Mo Williams or Dwyane Wade.

    The fact remains, that LeBron is the most clutch player in the NBA. Statistics support that. I would say if anyone is 'the man' its him.
     
  11. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Let's go Orlando!
     
  12. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I think that objection shows a lack of historical NBA knowledge. The fact is that every NBA winner did it with help. When Jordan won, he did it next to another top 5 player (at the time). But that doesn't stop most from calling Jordan the best ever. You could go down the list for every NBA winner and you'll find the same thing. And I have no doubt that Kobe or Wade would have done the same if they had been stuck on franchises that gave them almost zero chance to win.
     
  13. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I dont feel the need to denigrate Lebron. I'm simply disappointed by his reasoning.

    Not at all. I'm thinking of his spots among all time greats and I cant see a way I would possibly put him ahead of Wade.

    Really? is that why Ronnie Brown generally starts and finishes games barring injury and takes the bulk of the carries?

    Absolutely there is. That team will always be Wade's team because Wade is the embedded superstar with a ring. Thats all I heard for months leading up to free agency by Heat fans on this board.

    A good coach is a important just like a good team is. Just look at Denver last year. They crumbled without George Karl. But its more like Phil Jackson piggybacked on MJ since a team with great talent can win in the NBA without someone I'd call a great coach.

    The being the man stuff is not nonsense when youre going to look back thirty years from now and look at the team and the era in a historical perspective. When you come back thirty years from now and analyze the all time greats how can you possibly put lebron above wade when he will always have one less ring and similar stats?
     
  14. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    If Phil piggybacked on MJ, why did MJ refuse to play for anyone but him? He gladly should have accepted the challenge, were he 'the man'. But he didn't, because he was too much of a coward to accept the challenge.

    Similar stats? LeBron is going to average a triple double. Nobody in recent NBA history will have similar stats.

    The team may always be Wade's team in the sense that he's the one the fans first fell in love with. But I can guarantee you, on the court, LeBron will be the one who leads the team. Look no further than the 08 Olympics to see how they play on the court together. Wade feeds of what LeBron does, and it works out great.

    Also keep in mind that LeBron is younger than Wade. He'll have his shot at getting more rings when Wade retires. In 30 years people will look back and see LeBron averaged a triple double on one of the greatest dynasties the sports world has ever seen. Whether Wade has one more ring or not is irrelevant to their ability as basketball players. If anyone tries to compare them in the future, they'll look at MVP seasons just as much as titles.

    When people talk about Magic, does anyone ever say Abdul Jabbar has one more ring?
     
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  15. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Looking back now nobody says that Magic wasn't the man or that it wasn't his team even though he joined an embedded superstar with a ring (Kareem). And this is despite the fact that Magic ended up with one less ring than Kareem and scored less than Kareem every year but a couple at the end when Kareem was clearly a declining player.
     
  16. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    it doesn't show a lack of historical knowledge at all. Go back 500-600 posts and you'll see me saying exactly how much you need a second option. You just don't like what I have to say cause your a heat fan and I am talking in a negative context about your boy. But that's alright, just admit it.
     
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  17. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Regarding Jordan that question is easily answered by the fact that reinsdorf was always cheap and if Jordan said nothing Jackson would have walked. As great as Jordan was why should he lose a coach that he liked playing for?

    When I analysts talk about Magic they frequently do forget about Jabar and worthy. The difference is that Magic was a Pg and PG in the Nba often gets treated like qb in the NFL. I don't agree with that either.
     
  18. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Guess which position LeBron will rack up a significant amount of minutes at? :shifty:
     
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  19. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    He shouldn't. And I don't hold it against him. Just like I don't hold it against LeBron wanting to play with other superstars. It doesn't mean he can't do it by himself though.

    And LeBron will be filling his own role. He's not going to be pigeonholed into being just like MJ like Kobe has chosen to. LeBron going to be doing things that the sport has never seen. He could be top 5 in points, assists, rebounds, and blocks, and be the best defensive player in the league. He's not going to be a one-on-one player like he's been in Cleveland.
     
  20. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    If you agree that a second option is necessary then you're a hypocrite for criticizing LBJ for going someplace that can offer that.

    And LBJ isn't my boy. My favorite player ever is Marino, but I criticize (and now lament) his lack of post snap read skills all the time. So speaking negative about a player doesn't bug me. What bugs me is saying stupid things solely for the purpose of speaking negatively about a player.
     
  21. Brown42000

    Brown42000 Chillin

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    LBJ is the second option now with the Heat. No??

    Wade is Batman and LBJ is now Robin, not sure who is the equivalent to Bosh in this particular context but he's a great guy to have as a third option.
     
  22. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Wade = Batman
    LBJ = Robin
    Bosh = Zorro
    :pointlol:
     
  23. Dannyg28

    Dannyg28 Say hi to the rings

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    LBJ= Magic
    Wade= Rich mans worhy
    Bosh= poor man's kareem.

    This is not batman and robin, there is not a hierarchy between wade and lebron, they will have two different roles, wade is the scorer and the slasher, guy working off the ball, LeBron is gonna be the playmaker, the distributer, the one who sets up the offense.
     
  24. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    No.

    The status of first/second/third option will change depending on which team the Heat are playing, the score, and whichever guy happens to be hot that night.
     
  25. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Who decides whats stupid or is not? Oh...Heat fans.
     
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  26. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    You are aware that there are these things called Knicks, Cavs and Bulls message boards, right?

    And on these boards are these things called Fans of the Knicks, Cavs, and Bulls?

    and that those people in large, overwhelming numbers, are making asses of themselves?

    All the while engaging in some type of therapeutic, kabuki hate dance?
     
  27. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would only hold it against him in the context of ranking the all time great players. The fact that I didnt like his reasoning is more of an opinion and theres not much that will be said to change that. The fact that I felt he was scared to come play in NY is an opinion. Again, not much is going to change that opinion. He didnt want to face Wade and face failure again so he joined him. He wont be pigeonholed but he will be joining Wade on Wade's team, in a city that Wade will always be the homegrown superstar in. It will always be Wade #1 and Lebron #2 as long as they are both there in Miami. Wade's been there for 7 years and that wont get washed away just because Lebron joined.

    So Wade wont rack up just as many minutes at PG? How does that work? :wink2:

    Again, Im not criticizing Lebron for admitting he needed help. The only guy in the last 20 years who won it without another star was Hakeem in 94 when he was surrounded by a ton of great 3 point shooters like Smith, Cassell, Elie, Bullard, guys who werent stars but were complimentary pieces to the best player in the league that year.

    I am criticizing lebron only in a historical context because this will always be Wade's team and city. Wade will always be the guy who brought Lebron there. Wade will always be the one who brought Miami their first championship. That doesnt make me a hypocrite at all. It means I dont see the world through heat colored glasses. Youre free to put me on ignore if you take such offense to my opinion.

    Of course! :yes:

    And you have a board to be Heat homers on. This is a Dolphins board and playing in the same city as a team I love does not mean I have to be a fan of all the other teams in that city. As a matter of fact I hated the Heat back in the 90's, just as I am sure Heat fans hated the Knicks. There is also a Heat thread here as well. I'd say the Heat portion of this board is doing a fairly good job of making asses of themselves while engaging in a therapeutic circle jerk and stomping their feet at every anti Heat sentiment posted.

    I mean Im happy that you, D, and all the people I have become friendly with over the years are happy. I consider you guys friends but theres only so much homerism a guy can take. People are going to have anti-Heat opinions just like you guys hate my Knicks. Its not going to change my thoughts on a topic just because someone doesn't like what I have to say and I wouldn't expect to change someone else's thoughts based on what I have to say.
     
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  28. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    I think we'll see LeBron at the point more often than Wade, yes.
     
  29. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    That's why when Magic went to a team with an established superstar in Kareem who already had a ring, ended up with one ring less and was never the leading scorer until Kareem was on his last legs, Magic was never considered the man or among the greatest NBA players and it was never considered Magic's team, oh wait never mind.

    Your argument is that something that has already happened can't happen. Logically, that's a ridiculous position.
     
  30. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I'm not deciding it's stupid, logic is. And since I have no reason to believe that Boik is stupid (and several reasons to believe he isn't), I think he realizes it and is just making ridiculous comments to get a reaction.

    The fact is that Boik acknowledged that you need a second option in the NBA. Then he acknowledged that Cleveland didn't give LBJ enough help but still criticized LBJ for going someplace that would give him a second option.

    Then he went on to say that a player can't join a an established superstar who already has a ring and ever be considered the man. That has already happened so we know it's stupid to suggest it can't.

    Then Boik tried to say that there's some exception b/c Magic played PG. Now Boik knows that a big part of Riley's pitch was that LBJ could play the point here and be like Magic. So clearly that alleged exception doesn't doesn't differentiate the Magic situation from LBJ's.

    Next I expect that Boik may just try to pretend that LBJ won't play enough PG to be like Magic, but I'm sure he's smart enough to admit, even if it's just to himself, that he is just reaching for any argument rather than admit to us that he's just pissed LBJ didn't pick NY.
     
  31. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What is this? A damn inquisition? Dude the only thing ridiculous is your insistence that I change my stance based on your position. Im all for good debate but all your doing is baiting. I said my stance, whether you like it or not its not changing. Sorry if its not to your liking Raf.

    1. I dont make comments to get a rise out of people on this board. I consider this board my home online and I consider you (even when we disagree) and everyone else here a friend or at least an acquaintance. On another board, yeah I might do that but not here.
    2. My criticism of LBJ was in the context of ranking players all time. It is my OPINION that a truly great player wants to be the guy. Lebron can never be that in Miami because Wade already is. Again, its an opinion.
    3. Your comparison of Magic and Kareem is different. Kareem was already in his early 30's when Magic came on board. He also won his ring in a different city. In Miami, Wade is the established superstar having won in miami.
    4. Actually since Riley didnt make his pitch publicly I'm not sure I ever read that lebron would be playing PG. Actually, I remember Lebron saying last year when he was asked about being recruited for this offseason that he didnt want to be a PG. Which is funny cause that is how I always envisioned him.
    5. Next I expect you to come knock on my door with a pair of handcuffs saying I'm under arrest for criticizing Lebron on a message board.

    Here, just ask all the stuff you wanted to ask...

    Am I upset he didnt sign with the Knicks? Yes
    Do I think less of him because he didnt sign with the knicks? Yes
    Do I think he was scared of New York? Yes
    Do I think he wimped out the challenge of playing in New York? Yes
    Do I think conspiring to play with other players is bad for the integrity of the league and reflects poorly on him? Hell ya.
    Do I think New York would have embraced him like no other city? Yep.
    Do I think winning in New York is different then winning elsewhere? Yep and having met and talked to and been in fantasy leagues with other pro athletes they say the same thing. So its obviously not just me. Not saying Miami isnt a great city, it is and I enjoy watching the canes and phins but its common knowledge that NY fans hang on every pitch, analyze every shot, rip in to every interception. You have to have a unique pair of cajones to play in this city which is why NY fans admire players when they deliver.

    Hope that clear it up. :up:
     
  32. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Of the potential landing places, NY was the decision I would have respected the least. It would have indicated a person that wanted attention, didn't prioritize winning and didn't have an intelligent understanding of what was necessary to put him among the greats.

    I think he faces the most pressure as part of the Heat with Wade and Bosh. If he doesn't win this year, he will be considered a failure. He could have gone to NY and achieved the same type of success he had in Cleveland for years before the failure talk started.

    Fans are fans, any city would have embraced him. The one exception is Cleveland. They needed him and he would have been theirs forever, even if he never won. IMO leaving Cleveland took more guts than going to NY would have. In fact, I think it's clear that he faced more criticism going to Miami than he would have had he chose NY. Sadly most people understand it when others seek fame. They just can't seem to understand it when somebody just wants to win.

    I was in Beijing last summer and one of the things that struck me was how much bigger than New York it was. The buildings were taller, there were more of them and they were newer. NY may be the biggest US city, but it's not as important in terms of marketing as it thinks it is. The Cavs had the most TV appearances last year and the Heat will have the max this year, so it's not like he would have been on TV more if he had chosen NY. The fact is that China has almost as many people who play basketball (and buy basketball shoes) than the US has population. And all they care about is rings. I saw many Kobe billboards and just one LBJ. That was why when asked whether LBJ should go to NY, the president of Nike said, he thought LeBron should go to wherever gave him the best chance to win. Winning is what matters and frankly NY was probably behind Miami, Chicago and NJ in that respect.

    As for the rest, I guess you can try to rationalize that LBJ will be doomed to non-stardom b/c Wade is 28 and Kareem was 30 (two whole years!!!) or b/c Kareem's ring was in a different city, whatever lets you believe that you're being objective. :up:
     
  33. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Yes because everyone who doesn't want to play in New York is scared of playing there... LOL
     
  34. Phinperor

    Phinperor formerly In_Flames Luxury Box

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    blah blah blah...just beat the damn Lakers!
     
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  35. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Lebron paired with Stoudamire with Parker coming soon wouldve been better than the Heat once Parker arrived....but Lebron played it safe and opted for a mini dream team.

    Dont pretend like Amare wouldnt have been the best #2 option he had EVER played with.....so NY wouldve made sense from a winning standpoint aswell, why he didnt choose NY? Not sure, but it had NOTHING to do with not winning.
     
  36. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    [​IMG]
     
  37. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that LBJ, Amare and a maybe Parker would be better than LBJ, Wade and Bosh? :lol:
     
  38. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So playing in NY = wanting attention? And Miami doesnt? Lmao thats the most ridiculous thing I have heard all year. The rest of this is just follow up gibberish that doesnt even deserve a response.

    Again, Lebron wanting to win isn't the issue. Stringing teams and fans along and colluding with other players are the bigger issues. Im done repeating myself.



    In other news Miami has fired their ticket sales department now that all the season ticket have been sold out. Way to stay classy Miami. :up:

    And per rotoworld:
    Greg Oden said Sunday that he will be ready for training camp, after spending most of 2010 rehabbing a left kneecap injury that prematurely ended last season for him.
    He reportedly has lost some weight, which certainly qualifies as good news given his long and distinguished injury history. And if his risk of injury or lack of development as a player don't scare you away on draft day, then the prospects of playing behind Marcus Camby should.
    Source: Brian Smith on Twitter

    Hedo Turkoglu blasted the Raptors organization in statements released Sunday, and also defended Chris Bosh, who was recently criticized by Raptors GM Bryan Colangelo for not playing down the stretch of last season.
    "People have to realize something is wrong with that organization and nobody wants to go there any more," said Turkoglu who added, "it’s not just the players who see this." He later criticized Colangelo for his comments about Bosh, and said he didn't think Bosh would quit on his teammates. Colangelo would not respond to Hedo's statements, instead calling him "a friend" and wishing him well.
    Source: Fox Sports Arizona
    Related: Chris Bosh
     
  39. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Why would you keep a sales team with nothing to sell? Would you keep your ice cream man if you had no ice cream to sell? What just drive around in a truck all day with no product?
     
  40. Big E

    Big E Plus sized porn star

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    Welcome to Cleveland.
     
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