So you traded a starting corner for a #4 WR Here I thought bringing Favre back was the only foolish move the Vikes made
I look at it as we traded for a guy that is going to help us for a guy that if he made the team (talk was he is being mentioned as a cut) would not have touched the field a lot.
What I see is that we gave away the most sure-handed Receiver in the league for a Corner who's small, slow and has only 4 INTs in 6 full seasons. Simply unbelievable. Stunning. This is the kind of **** deal you expected during the Wannstedt administration, not from Parcells disciples.
i think we all know the number one curiosity heading in the next preseason game. benny, you have big cleats to fill; we are all rooting for you.
Good info. Thanks and welcome. One thing to mention about Camarillo, in addition to great hands, is that the guy is CLUTCH. Not only does he make every catch, but he gets open and makes them when it counts. Last year we really didn't have any 'starters' at WR. Just a constant rotation of four guys. But when we went to our trusty sprint-right play in crunch time, Camarillo was always in the game running the sliding comeback to pickup the first. This was one of our biggest games in years. The Epic Monday nighter against the Jets last year. Check out who makes the big catches on this game-winning drive. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pelu5IzJtHs"]YouTube- New York Jets vs. Miami Dolphins Week 5 MNF 2009 10/12/09[/ame]
Sorry, but the bolded part just isnt true. I love Cammy and what he brought, but truth is, as CK pointed out, Sapp will probably see much more playing time here than Cammy would've. He would've been the 4th WR, in an Run-first offense that likes to use both a Fullback and 2-TE formations. You can only have 11 men on the field at a time...and chances are very very good, more times than not, Cammy would've been the odd-man out. Hope he does well in Minnesota....just hope Farve's leg gets broken week 1 and its Jackson that he has success with.
I think people are over-estimating Cam. He was the 4th WR on a team that rarely uses 4. His biggest value this year was as injury insurance. He is reliable but not a special talent. I thought he would be here one more year and was looking to be a possible cut next season. That's just b/c by then his limited talent would have caught up with him. So I also think his value to us was limited to the short-term. As for the trade, I don't know anymore about Sapp then what's been said here. It sounds like he would have been our 4th CB here if everybody was healthy. That by itself would bring us more value just b/c we use 4 CBs more often than we use 4 WRs. But Sapp would also be injury insurance in case of injury to our top 3. It seems we have that injury (W. Allen) so his immediate value increases even more. I also get the impression that Sapp might be an upgrade on STs where we have been struggling. What I'm saying is that while my initial reaction was "we traded a guy I like for a guy I've never heard of", the more I think about it our team is probably better off today than it was yesterday.
We would have been better off with a 4th-round pick. The only guy in the whole league who didn't drop a single pass last season, for a Corner who's 5'9" 190, 29 years old and has anger management issues. Ireland really needs to go. This is Dave Wannstedt **** here, not even as good as Rick Speilman deals.
Exactly. This guy could end up being the next Reggie Howard for all we know. He is only 5'-9" tall and comes from a totally different scheme. Cam would have been a great #4 in case of an injury and still would see action. He has proven he can be very clutch. I'm not sure what they are thinking except that Will Allen is toast. Other than that this trade baffles me.
What you're getting in Camarillo is a sure-handed and clutch WR, who is versatile enough to play in the slot or as a #2. He's not athletically compelling or somebody you'll want as a starter long-term, but he is ideal as a fill-in. He's a smart guy and a vet so he shouldn't have much difficulty figuring out your offense. He plays STs willingly but won't be a standout.
You would've held out for a fourth for Cammy and you say Ireland doesn't know what he's doing? Freakin rediculous.
What's ridiculous is that here's a man employed as a GM in the NFL whose track record includes signing Ernest Wilford, Eric Green, Gibril Wilson, and Jake Grove; whose record includes drafting Pat White in the 2nd round, Pat Turner in the 3rd, trading up for Shawn Murphy on draft day... You can point to his successes, but successes are EXPECTED - they're the reason he has the job, not some incidental factor. You don't get to be a GM if you don't succeed in identifying and acquiring some good, starting talent. But these failures, including this one: trading the surest-handed Receiver in the NFL for a small, slow, older Cornerback with character flaws serious enough to be noted. A Cornerback who has now played 6 full seasons and has all of 4 INTs to show for it. Now THAT's ridiculous.
No, the fact that you ignore his positive contributions and only mention his negative contributions is ridiculous.
There was too much redundancy with Camarillo, Bess and Hartline on the same team. I'm probably in the minority on this, but I didn't even consider Camarillo to be a sure thing to make the team. Sure hands, decent size, but a career backup talent and not a burner. Bess lacks straight line speed and I look at Hartline as a Camarillo 2.0- he made Camarillo rather obsolete and expendable. For the 4th and 5th guys they need a guy with size- maybe Pat Turner- and a guy with wheels. Better off imo to choose from Pruitt, Moore or that other big rookie FA WR who's doing pretty well. I'm not trying to dump on Camarillo, it's just that he wasn't all that. Sapp should fit in nicely in the slot, minimizing the impact of having a 5-9 corner out there. Good guy to have to cover the Wes Welkers of the world, of course when Welker is healthy. Sapp may end up being our defensive version of Bess- short, quick, not blazing fast but very effective on 3rd down and specifically in the slot where his quicks, instincts and experience could end up being of great value. Sorry in some ways to see Camarillo go, but he wasn't even starting on the crappiest WR core in the NFL pre Marshall. He might have ended up making some clutch catches this year, but again we have Hartline and Bess to do that- of course Marshall, too. Good trade imo- losing a redundant piece of the puzzle in exchange for a needed slot CB- Will Allen is less than a sure thing this year and Nolan Carroll is not only untested but my guess is that he's better suited for a role on the outside, not in the slot. Sapp fills a need, plain and simple. Camarillo, while a fan favorite, would have had a limited role at best this year and on the face of it I don't see how he would have ended up contributing nearly as much as Sapp probably will. Pretty good swap.
I don't think we would have gotten a fourth for him. And I don't know if we can sum up Benny Sapp that easily. We don't know much about him yet. I think Cam was a good poker chip. Whether we got good value for him, that'll have to play out. Personally I think this move lets us know that we might be in deep doo doo at corner. That we shouldn't expect Will Allen back anytime soon. With Allen down, Sean Smith has the most career starts of any DB on the roster not named Yeremiah Bell. And we have few, if any, players who can effectively play the slot, which this guy supposedly can. Allen, BTW, is breaking down IMO. Guy has been playing through a lot of injuries the past few years. You need veterans at every position. Especially this one. Hopefully Sapp can help and be a 'Core 4' guy as was alluded earlier.
Clearly I agreed with your opening statement. What I don't agree with is that we got any value beyond...well, Sapp - as I've described him before. That's not a good trade. It's a terrible trade that smacks of the desperation of the Larry Gordon and Marty Booker trades.
Exactly, what this defensive back field was missing was experience. Bell, Ness, Davis, Smith, Carroll, Allen and Allen, only Allen and Bell are experienced in the secondary. It is hard to call Jason Allen experienced as he has barely played.
Really you are talking about a player you probably have never seen play. What did Nnamdi Asomugha run out of college? 4.48 You have a guy that played a good amount of time on one of the better defenses in the league. He started 7 games for us and we didn't miss a beat.
sapp is a good nickel corner. he will contribute far more to our team then camarillo would have as a 4th receiver. nolan carroll needs a full year of technique work and film study before he can be counted on. will allen is recovering from an injury. its a good move. we have the depth we need now in the secondary. goodbye nate ness
I do know he isn't afraid to make a hit. I'm pretty happy with the return. I loved Cammy but he wasn't going to start and while he would have made good insurance, I do believe Sapp will see the field a lot more. Besides the fact our kick coverage needed a kick in the ***.
exactly. You guys will like Camarillo too. Seems your coaches like your young players in the secondary. Think this a trade that benfits both sides. Camarillo is just a blue collar receiver that seems to get open when you need him and catches everything thrown at him. Every receiving corps needs one receiver like him. Nothing fancy but solid
Lamar Gordon, not Larry- I still remember when the news came out that Larry Gordon died. A true bummer, he was as I recall a heck of a player and a good guy. I don't know why you're so down on Sapp, most of the feedback on him is surprisingly good. His being 5-9 threw me at first, but as a slot guy maybe that's not such a bad thing. He stepped in for Griffin I believe and performed admirably by all accounts. With two young guys starting and Will Allen still on the mend- and with us needing a slot CB- a proven guy like Sapp sounds pretty darned good to me.
Bess and Cam are similar players with two slight differences: Cam is taller and more sure-handed. That's not a knock on Bess at all, I think the world of him; but yes, I do believe that they were schematically interchangeable. Between the two of them, I would have kept Bess too and traded Camarillo; what I have a real problem with is what we got for him. A guy who is as sure-handed as Cam has value; that value is set by the market at the time of the trade. I believe we sold him and the team short by trading him for Sapp...could we have gotten a 3 or a 4 if we had waited Minny out? I mean, they're SCREWED at WR. Or maybe Min wasn't the right destination; would a team expected to make a Super Bowl run like to have a clutch guy like Cam on board for the long haul? You bet. A 6-year Corner with as poor numbers as Sapp is NOT a good trade for a guy as clutch as Camarillo.
He's the guy who should be bummed. Ness is a great deal like the description given for Sapp two seasons ago. He's the guy that makes plays but also gives up plays.
You guys made out like bandits; you get a guy who didn't drop a pass all season, who will makes catches in the clutch the way others make routine grabs. Camarillo will win games for you; I don't see Sapp making that kind of a difference for us.
This was about Nolan Carrol not being ready to backup Will Allen in the slot and special teams. They killed two birds with 1 stone. The thing is both team's fans are a little pissed right now because they know they're giving up sure things. The first thing I read on Vikings forum:
No way that Bess and Camarillo are schematically interchangeable. Camarillo would never be the low center of gravity slot guy with quicks that Bess is. Choosing between the two would be a no contest for me- Bess all the way. And while I like Bess, I'm not all that crazy about him. Same goes for Hartline in my book- like him, don't love him. Bess is a good slot guy with quicks and solid hands who lacks wheels, imo much better in the slot than Camarillo. As to Sapp's numbers- I don't see them as being all that bad. Solid tackler, solid hitter, breaks up passes. Not a big number of INTs, but that's not a death knell. By all accounts he performed admirably as a starter on one of the better defensive teams in the NFL for about half of the year. Nothing wrong with that.
Not sure if you've gotten to it, but he had a really nice post on Page 1. I think we have to remember that we aren't the only team Minnesota was talking to about a receiver. We know they sniffed around Vincent Jackson. And I'm sure they had their eye on a few others. Both teams had a need. Neither team gave up a draft pick. Sapp will very likely play more here than Cam would have. And Cam gets increased playing time up there. Cam is probably the better route runner and has the best hands of his direct competition, but Hartline is more explosive and Bess is quicker, more athletic. They all give you different things. What the Dolphins really lack at the position is speed. Marlon Moore might give you that. Roberto Wallace might give you that along with tremendous size. This move opens the door for a new dimension behind the starters. We just might need to be patient with it. In the meantime, David Martin will consume a lot of those additional WR snaps.
I don't see that at all. Both are liabilities vertically, but Bess has a knack for the shorter inside routes that surpasses Camarillo easily imo. Camarillo is not nearly as quick or as slashing a route runner as Bess. I don't think that Camarillo is nearly as good at separating in short space. Fan favorite that he is, Camarillo is a journeyman caliber WR, granted one with good hands who was serviceable inside or out. His future here was limited at best, and I don't think that anyone considered him a threat to overtake Bess's role on the team. If they were schematically interchangeable he would have by nature been considered a threat to Bess. My guess is that in terms of draft picks Camarillo would have fetched a 6th rd pick tops, probably a 7th. Instead of a late rd draft pick we got a good slot corner for him. Again, and not to knock Camarillo, I considered him a candidate for the waiver wire this year, so to me it's all good right out of the gate.
Well I guess its just a matter of opinion. Personally the guy had enough tools to get open when needed and he has the best hands. I would have had him #2 with Marshall this year or at least in the slot position. I love Hartline and Bess as much as the next but I'll take sure hands over a slasher and a little bit more quickness any day. Everybody wants to say that he was #4 on the depth chart and such but we also need to remember that he was coming off the knee injury which is why he was further down there. I respect everybody's opinion, I personally just think it was a mistake. I hope I am proven wrong.
I haven't seen much of your guy. You hear the name, you recognize it from news blurbs but you really can't just look at the stats to tell the picture. I look at Greg's stats and they scream average WR. However, based on this board, i see that he is more than that. Hence the reason I came here and the reason I signed up.
God those are awful measurables. short and slow. From your write up he seems to be a performer in spite of it.......... I hope!
