Some of those drives were killed when the wildcat goes 3 attempts at the 30 yard line for 4 yards. Plays in which Henne either wasn't on the field or was on the field but wasn't used. Not the majority but it did happen on a few occasions, reducing his number of attempts, and experience from those situations.
How many games has Henne won and against what competition,He's 4/3 as good as any qb out there.ANOTHER BEAT HENNE TO DEATH THREAD.
I feel ya, war's are fine, as long as their battled fair and square...I don't mean to come across as jumpin on anyone's case, just wanna always protect our house from turning into you know what.
Wow...I gotta say, I think that is the best description of Henne in as tight a package as possible...good job.
In reply to the OP...your points are valid and should be discussed. Just dont forget to consider the qualities of teams faced. The Ds Sam Bradford have faced arent nearly the quality Henne has...
I like how he's being compared to No. 1 overall picks like Stafford and Bradford. That says something and of itself.
That is the offense Vt, now send out 2 Receivers, and then you will understand why some of the things happen that are happening. Which is why the running game has to improve, it simply must because they will not choose to go 3 wides for a whole game.
This is true. But I'm going to tell you right here and now, barring injuries, Bradford is going to be the next decade's Manning/Brady...he's that good. I would trade Henne in a split second for what Bradford is going to be. And, I don't care where Bradford was picked, I'm just saying that not only will Henne pale in comparison, but by this time two years from now, so will EVERY other QB in the league, bar none. There, I said it.
Tom Brady was a 6th, Matt Hasselbeck & David Garrard were 4ths. Matt Schaub was a 3rd. Cassel was a 7th. Tony Romo was undrafted. There are plenty of non-first-overall picks that are successful in the NFL, and we're not going to have a #1 overall pick anytime soon so we work with what we have. I picked those players because they were new starting QBs in the league, not because they were top first-round picks. You can use anyone you wish for the comparison, but if you pick any of the guys i listed above, for instance, it actually makes the point in the first post much more evident Doesn't that mean his numbers should be more favorable? To be clear I'm not and have never advocated getting rid of Henne - and I'm certainly not citing him as the source of all the team's woes. I would just like to see better play from the position (namely touchdowns), and the discussion was intended to spur discussion about whether everyone is satisfied with Henne as the QB of this team into the future.
Sure henne should have hit marshall in that pitt game on the back shoulder throw for a TD, but he missed. Henne does throw some stupid passes usually is good for 1 a game. He has pretty good resilience though and usually comes back strong after making a mistake. I look at the first drive of the Pats game where we were moving so well and on 3rd and 6 we call a wildcat dive. Also I look at the last game against the bengals. Henne had his struggles early and threw a bad pick. He came back and was in a great rhythm the rest of the game. We get the ball back at the MIA 40 yd line up 8 with about 7 minutes to go and we call one dive play, and 2 wildcat formation dives. This sums up the offensively philosophy of the organization. Henne will not get his stats in this system and unless he plays absolutely perfect and hits every throw. We will not win a superbowl with an ultra conservative mentality.
I do not disagree at all So who do we raise our torches & pitchforks to? Henning? Sparano? Someone is responsible for the offensive gameplan
This entire thread is pointless, because Henne does not call the plays. For example, would you say Henne was a stronger player if our two rushing touchdowns were passed in for shot yardage instead? Do you blame Henne when the Fins move the ball 50 yards and then stall the drive with the Wildcat? Did you even consider the math about completion percentage or playcalling tendencies within the red zone? All of these factors are what makes up the "stats" you're grading Henne by, but statistics do not make the athlete. For an easy comparison, look at pro MMA fighter Tank Abbott....he's 10-14 as a pro...meaning he definitely sucks (according to stats)....yet fans love watching his fights because they know it's going to be a no-holds slugfest where someone is getting knocked out in a hurry. Stats definitely do not tell the entire story in most cases, and it is definitely true with Henne as well. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STstJFc7nsU&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STstJFc7nsU&feature=related[/ame]
Let me start by saying that I found this post to be interesting and went as far as to thank it, so don't take this rather lengthy and critical post the wrong way. If anything, you gave some interesting stuff to think through and research just to make sure that my hunch was right. Now... For starters, I'm not sure that I can buy your opening line that reads "I'm generally happy with Henne, but it seems every day I come across a statistic which tells me we could do better." Generally speaking, if you like a player, you don't come across stuff (every day no less) that tells you the Dolphins could do better at said player's position. Now, the first statistical point that you make deals with total TD passes. I'm not so sure that this is a very good stat to focus on for the following reasons: -Henne is just 7 games into the season. For all we know, he could go on a tear in the last 9 games and pass many or all of the other QBs you mentioned -The Dolphins have been notoriously conservative as soon as Henne drive's the team into or near the redzone, often running 2 if not 3 times in a row and settling for a field goal. Or, when they do decide to throw, they go in max protect mode and give Henne just 1-2 pass catchers to throw at. -Henne has had little to no run support all season long (just 2 rushing TDs and a fairly pedestrian YPC average) which makes it that much harder to punch it in (due to lack of opportunities) I'm not saying that Henne has been great when given the opportunity (he has missed some clear TD opportunities). I just think that in and of itself, this particular statistic doesn't mean all that much all things considered. You go on to talk about the idea that Henne is not putting up enough "production" for your liking, but it appears to me that you're being incredibly selective in your definition of production. Have you compared Henne's completion percentage to some of these young guys? Or how about yards-per-attempt? Or how about third-down-conversion percentage (a very important stat in my opinion)? Or fourth-quarter-comebacks? Or heck, even flat out passer rating? Again, if you're going to compare production, I don't think that it's fair to focus on the stats that paint Henne in a bad light while ignoring the ones that paint him in a very good light. As for your comparison to what Orton did with Marshall, I would just point out what Orton has been able to do this year, without Marshall (e.g. He's putting up some pretty big numbers). Besides, Marshall is on par for a career year in terms of yardage, and he'll be the first to admit that his YAC hasn't been very good thus far. And you can't dismiss how Miami's conservative game plan - particularly in/near the redzone - affects Henne's TD numbers (Henning wasn't the OC in Denver). And Kitna? Really? You think that Henne has a Kitna ceiling? Again, are you sure that you "generally like him"? All that said, I agree with the idea of drafting a QB every year "just in case." I just wouldn't use 1-4 round pick. At least not yet. I also agree that we need more TD production on offense, and while Henne is a part of the problem, I definitely think that it's not as simple as that. There are a whole host of problems that are contributing to our TD woes.
that's irrelevant. Pennington's strength is his efficiency in the short game. You shorten up the field vs Baltimore and Pittsburgh and you give them the advantage. You can make the argument (which Padre has already done in another thread successfully) that Sparano handcuffs Henne into a shorter, more conservative approach, but Henne has a much better chance of making "chunk yardage plays" against an aggresive defense than Pennington.
Henne's TD passes would increase if he actually threw the ball into the end zone. Most of Miami's drives die at the door step of the red zone. Henne has thrown more balls out of the end zone afraid they will be picked than trying to hit his receivers. Seems to be the way he is being coached by Henning/Sparano.
We do slightly pass more than run, however we also go John Beck like max protect often as well, 2 guys in a pattern is not going to produce very much offense, yet that is what they are doing. "If" Henne is going to produce better numbers, that guy wearing #23 has to pick his game up as the offense is predicated on running the ball effectively and we have not done so. Ronnie B did run better last week, 2 games out of 7 is not exactly great.
Offense: PPG Dolphins 19 (23) Yards Per Game Dolphins 343.7 (13) Third Down PCT Dolpins 44% (5) Time of Possession Dolphins 32:24 (6) This should be no surprise as this staff is completely content with FG's and it will continue to cost us game and surely get us destroyed in a playoff game if we happened to make it that far. Great post and discussion by the way. Henne has definitely missed on a couple of the few opportunities given, but he has also given us reason to have high hopes on him as our franchise QB.
long post alert.... too much to reply to! I picked these categories because it was what I personally felt needs to improve. This season is only 7 games old, but that's what we have to compare. We can go back all 21 games Henne has started for us if you wish but the numbers don't improve for his case when you go back. I think our running game is vastly deficient, and I'm 100% certain if we improve that it makes Henne's job easier. If the running game isn't working, more burden falls on the QB's shoulders to make plays. Can the QB get it done? Right now our running game is not what it should be, so Henne should be picking up the scoring slack; he's not, which is what is driving this comparison. I don't want a QB that "everything has to be perfect" in order for him to enjoy success - that's a game manager. Many cite no running game, defense letting him down, etc, etc.... these are things all teams have to deal with at one point or another. Rarely does the superbowl winner hold the player with the rushing title, or even the #1 defense. The superbowl winner usually does has a QB that can win games single-handedly if need be. (with the obvious exception being the 2000 Ravens) Our running game isn't always going to be excellent; the Patriots, Saints, and Colts all do very well every year without having a "dominant" running game. That's what I'm talking about here, not "if our running game would be dominant, he'd be fine" type stuff - that's what a game manager does, and i'm not looking for Henne to be a "manager". we should want Henne to be more than that! We can use any comparison you want. My problem was with lack of scoring TD's - that's why I did this particular comparison. I invite any comparisons you feel counter my point though, so by all means feel free to make any points you wish. The thing is, remember my concerns are with scoring. 64% completion percentage doesn't do you much good if you aren't throwing a single TD in a game and there is no running game to bail you out. You're reading too far into the Orton comparison - the point of that was to say if Orton can do it, so should Henne. I have faith that Henne should be better than Orton, so I used this comparison to show that it can be done (getting Marshall 10 TD's with little other talent on offense). Miami's conservative offense is definitely a big part of the problem. Trust me i believe Henning is a much bigger problem than Henne, and I've made that abundantly known in other threads. BUT, if you're going to take that tack, you acknowledge that our coaches are hand-cuffing Henne a bit. Why? Either they don't trust him, or they feel that it is better to have such a conservative, vanilla offense. Then if your problem isn't with Henne, it should be with Henning or Sparano (regarding Henne's development on the field during play). And as I said, I have greater problems with that, but that's a different thread - and it still doesn't mean Henne can't improve. I'm not saying Kitna is Henne's ceiling - it was a rhetorical question posed to the forum "will Henne be the next Kitna, or...?" Statistically, that's what Henne has been playing like thus far. I believe we haven't seen Henne's ceiling whereas we have seen Kitna's. I think you're going with prejudices here and ignoring stats though. Besides the fact that the career average stats between him and Henne are similar enough, find something about that comparison that shows I'm as off base as you think. In Kitna's last two years as a starting QB (in detroit, no less), he averaged 63% completion and ~4,150 yards while throwing 39 TDs and 42 Ints. You were talking about other things like "4th quarter comebacks" that should be considered... In an article dated 2006 that rated top 10 QB's at comeback victories the past ten years, Kitna was 5th on the list with 15 come-from-behind victories. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2006/quarterbacks-and-fourth-quarter-comebacks If I could find more recent information, I would. The point is Kitna can get the job done, but he won't win the game for you - he needs a good run game, solid defense, etc. This was the conversation spark - insert my rhetorical question here - Is Henne going to be a guy like Brees who can win the game for you? Or will he be like a Kitna where everything will need to be in place for him to be effective? :banghead: That was the entire point of the thread! So you agree! But seriously, if our running game is going and R&R have 6-7 TDs on the year, I'm probably not starting this thread - but it doesn't mean it's not an issue worth looking at. It's just more obvious now with our scoring woes. There certainly are many people & factors to blame, but it would take forever to parse through them all in one thread - don't take this thread as me suggesting Henne is the only problem
Henne can't be judged on TD performance alone. -His strength of schedule is 10 times tougher than what Penny faced. -He's had multiple TD drops. -He had one of the poorest receiving cores in the league in 09. -He was a rookie in 09 who was taken out of games for the WC inside the redzone. -He has no viable vertical threat this season and an unreliable one last season. -He has a conservative OC who calls a ridiculously high number of comeback, out routes etc where receivers have little opportunity to pick up extra yards or turn the play into a TD. -He has an OC who gives him little opportunity inside the 20 than many other teams allow. -The deep passes that are usually called are along the perimeter where the receiver has little chance of remaining in bounds to turn it up field. -He has a #2 WR facing single coverage who isn't able to consistenly exploit the advantage. -He has an inexplosive TE who's dropping too many passes and is used more in blocking than running routes. -He has zero playmaking, explosive COP backs who can burn it upfield on a screen or dump off. But I love how you shift all the lack of TD production blame onto the QB.
