Why do a lot of people here not have faith in Brian Hartline?

Here is why:

If Beast is doubled, and Bess bracketed, someone should have one on one coverage..I'm looking at you Brian Hartline.

 

Nappy & CK - fair points.

Marshall only has 1 TD though. Has he dropped off some too, or are we going to afford Hartline the same excuses we offer Marshall & Bess? In other words, in the same vein that i'm getting rebuttals in the Henne thread about different offensive strategies and personnel, can we say perhaps the decline is due to Hartline's role on the offense changing rather than him "regressing"?

If he only has two drops on the year, what other "opportunities" is he squandering? Last year Hartline didn't have to yield 12-15 passes a game to Brandon Marshall, Bess wasn't on pace for a 1,000 yard season, and we didn't have such problems scoring either.

If we're going to point out the different dynamics between two years of offense in one thread as a defensive argument for a player, I don't think you can ignore it as a circumstance for another, if that makes sense.

 

You don't have to sell me on Bess. I'm a HUGE Bess fan. I just want to see Hartline afforded the same courtesies when we're discussing them, that's all

 

Well I'll just say this. Considering Brian Hartline gets about 80% of the offense's snaps which I think officially makes him a #2 WR in the NFL, he's probably one of the least productive #2 WRs in the NFL right now.

I think criticism is deserved until he does better. Particularly until he starts doing some damage deep, because that is supposed to be his role on the offense.

 

I agree, but if we're not calling deep plays... is that his fault? I've seen Hartline open quite a bit and for whatever reason Henne just isn't getting him the ball as often.

Hartline's numbers last year look good primarily because of two plays: Hartline had a 67-yard catch and a 57-yarder, which vastly skewed those vaunted ypc numbers everyone references. The rest of the time he was averaging between 10 and 17, which is exactly what he's been doing this year. You give him those two long receptions this year and his average per catch is 15.2, right in line with last year. Cue the stat-monkey accusations from Padre (I was criticized over the stats thing in the Henne thread, but that is what many seem to draw their conclusions from in this thread.)

Let's get away from stats to appease those that are not fans of stats.... Is it because Marshall is vulturing all the attention from Henne? Is it the chemistry Henne has formed with Bess that makes him an earlier read in his progressions? (<-- speculation on my part). Is it because last year we didn't have Marshall, and Bess & Cam were the underneath possession guys and Hartline was used more as a clear-out guy? (he's definitely running shorter routes so far this year). Is it the play-calling or offensive philosophy, which is clearly different between last year and this year? Absent Hartline's two drops (which to be fair is above-average for a Dolphins WR), I'm not seeing bad play from Hartline so that's why I'm not quick to sell him down the river. I've also seen him open plenty when he's not getting the ball. Hartline doesn't call the plays, so if we're not taking as many deeper chances, I just can't put the blame on his shoulders for that.

I'm not making an excuse for him here as you're right, his production is down as I forgot to consider he didn't play all year last year... But I'm offering counterpoints that some aren't thinking about. What if we air-out our offensive philosophy a bit more? You could say we've pulled the reigns in a bit this year - how many plays have you seen that were designed to go deep that Henne wasn't focusing on Marshall? I can only think of 2-3 really deep attempts this year, and they were to Marshall. Hartline hasn't even had one look on a deep route.

 

Actually Hartline was targeted deep a few times but overthrown most of the time.

 

Is it his fault that his QB doesn't think him open deep often enough to throw to him? Partly.

He's been thrown the ball 5 times beyond 20 yards and hasn't caught any of them, nor has he drawn any pass interference deep like he did last year.

And talking about the 67 and 57 yarders he made last year, what exactly is your point? That he actually sucked last year and so the fact that he sucks this year should be no surprise?

I think that Chad Henne had a lot of confidence in him heading into this year and now I sense that confidence has eroded a lot.

 

He hasn't dropped any of those though; is being overthrown his fault? He has drawn PI calls, BTW. I remember one specifically kept a crucial drive alive as well

lol, no I don't think he sucks and I'm certainly not advocating that. Just that he's one or two big plays away from matching his average from last year. That's not big enough of a delta to cite him as being a huge disappointment this year, IMO.

this I agree with, although it may not just be confidence as well as having Marshall getting so many looks now. I really think we're underestimating the effect Marshall and Bess have on Hartline's looks here. You'd think we'd go to Hartline more due to Marshall being double-covered, but we're still targeting Marshall 15+ times a game, and Bess has become Henne's go-to guy and is on pace to better his numbers from last year. I don't have access to, but would like to see, the stats of % of targets of WR's by Henne - just curious.

I am not trying to pimp Hartline, and i'm definitely not advocating giving Marshall or Bess less looks - I just see so much negativity and I think a lot of it is unwarranted. The fact that Hartline's not Randy Moss seems to be a huge detriment about him for a lot of Dolphin fans.

I'm not that passionate about the guy, I'm done on this one for now chris.

 

Dan Carpenter must have photos of Henning

 

ok I lied, haha.

Just saw a tweet from Omar that was pertinent enough to add to the thread:

I guess that answers that question. I wonder why though?

 

I feel this issue has also given rise to R.Wallace coming in more as of late...I was for Moss coming because of the effect he would have on leaving Bess and Hartline open. Such is life...Wallace gets valuable minutes now.

 

Zod, I know the terminology. You don't have to twist the meaning of my words in order to make yourself seem superior. Marshall, for all intent and purposes, is our #1 WR, and members understand this. #1 as in our MAIN GUY. That's why he has 47 catches for 588 yards and is being paid $47 million compared to Hartline's $2.25 million. You can say Hart's our #1 till you're blue in the face, but that will never make him our MAIN WR. Your semantics aren't needed. All you're going to do is start confusing people when you speak in technicalities & Hart as our #1. I speak of Hart as our #2 as in "he's playing a position that should make him our 2nd best WR".

Now if you'd care to disagree or agree with my sentiments about Hart not being enough of a threat or consistent enough to be a high quality #2 WR (#2 as in should be 2nd best behind Brandon), then please feel free to.

 

Uh oh, don't tell Zod he's a "#2".

For this debate, the drops in preseason need to be accounted for too b/c these also contribute to a QB losing confidence in his WR (and I think there have been more than 2 drops in the regular season). As an ex QB, I know a QB's mentality. When we have guys whom we don't trust 100%, we naturally pay them less attention (especially if we have 2 receivers whom we DO have confidence in).

It doesn't matter what his stats are so far b/c he should be doing more. He's playing at a position where he should be able to take advantage of the coverage and have bigger chunk plays, but he's not exploiting anything. How many of us feel comfortable seeing jump balls thrown to Hartline in single coverage? I sure don't.

The guy's playing out of position IMO. He'd thrive in the slot ala Austin Collie & Jordan Shipley.

 

Well there's nothing to be said for that other than that he's mistaken. Coaches and General Managers and Scouts all consider the #1 to be your go-to guy and that is clearly Brandon Marshall. It doesn't matter if he plays Split End, Slot or Flanker, if you use that terminology, or X, Y or Z if that's the terminology you use. The #1 guy is your go-to player and the #2 guy is loosely defined by everyone as either the next-most popular target or the guy with the next-most snaps.

If there's an argument, it would be over whether Bess or Hartline is the #2 and there's a case to be made on both sides. Hartline plays more snaps, 375 snaps to 249 for Bess. He also plays more pass snaps, 246 pass snaps to Bess' 164. But, Bess has been thrown the ball 50 times while Hartline's been thrown 40 times. So, like I said, you could make an argument either way.

But if you told the Dolphins that Brandon Marshall is not their #1 WR, it's Brian Hartline, because he's the X and Hartline is the Z, they would probably have a pretty good laugh about that.

I disagree. I don't think he's necessarily playing out of position because of the way Miami uses them all, and I do believe it matters that he's produced 383 yards and 1 TD.

 

This kind of backs up my point where Hartline isn't getting the looks
100 more pass snaps with 10 less throws to him? It's not because Hartline's always covered either...

 

Are you sure?

If Hartline hasn't inspired the kind of confidence that Bess has, ToddsPhins is right to an extent, that's on him. He's got to lobby for the ball and show that he can handle it. Dropping that perfect flea flicker against the Bengals isn't going to inspire Henne to throw it up to him in single man with the defender on his hip.

 

I don't think that we're using him out of position b/c I don't see him sitting the bench behind Bess; however, I do feel he's out of position for where he would see his best production in general. IMO of course. I feel he would have a better NFL career in the slot than outside.

 

100% positively sure. The last 3 games I've been specifically watching Hartline. Trust me he's open quite a bit - but he isn't even always open when Henne targets him either.

Why? I do not know. I want to point to the confidence argument as that probably makes the most sense, although I still think citing the drops is a little bit of a stretch as a reason. Hartline isn't the only player to have dropped balls and doesn't even lead the team in drops. Signs point to something though.

CK - watch Hartline next game and see how often he's open and Henne misses him. You might be surprised
(then again, it's Baltimore. Worst week to pick for this study eh? )

 

See and this is why I'm enjoying reading this site so much more then the other.

Arguments and discussions that are civil. Over there it's about bashing each other and if there is a thread that doesn't focus on the FO, Henne, or Henning it's few and far between.

I will make one correction on your post but I do think it was very well thought out and I am starting to think alot of Hartline's struggles may be a lack of deep route options and looks altogether from Henne. Anyway, Hartline did have one deep ball called and I believe it was the first play of week 1 against the Bills. But you are right, other than that, I haven't seen any deep throws to Hartline.

 

Hartline's had 5 balls thrown to him at 20+ yard depth.

I'm watching the guy, I just think we have different ideas of what open is, especially the timing. It's not just are you open, more important is WHEN you're open.

 

I still don't understand why we force our 1 TE, 1 FB, 2 WR, and 1 RB. There's no point to that if our best formation is 3 WR. If we truly do run our best out of 3 WR stick with it. I love taking the 3-4 SOLB off the field.

 

There was a pass to Bess today that Hartline was past all Ravens secondary; Bess still caught it for a first down, but Hartline was open deeper. There were 4 other pass plays that I specifically counted Hartline as being either open or beatable single coverage that Henne didn't look toward him.

Now, he had the slip that was picked off, but at best all Hartline could have done on that play was break up the pick. The DB still jumped the route and even if Hartline hadn't slipped, that DB is still jumping that ball.

Let's not forget all those yards after catch Hartline had today. Led the team.

 

A great game for Hartline.

 

Yea he's definitely showing some explosion the past few games that had been missing.

 

Best game this year for him.