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What is wrong with our offense?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Big Red, Nov 8, 2010.

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  1. Big Red

    Big Red Long Lasting Freshness

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    I believe most would agree our defense is young and only getting better. However there are starting to be more and more concerns on the offensive side of the ball. Only 15 points against the Bills? Only 14 points against the Vikings and Pats? And now only 10 points against the Ravens?

    Here's an interesting fact: After Sebastian Janikowski, Dan Carpenter has the most field goal attempts in the NFL.

    Wasn't Brandon Marshall supposed to make our offense more explosive? You'd be hard-pressed to find a better running tandem in the NFL than Ronnie and Ricky. Yet we haven't scored more than 23 points in a single game this season! Just this weekend the Saints put up 34 points against the Panthers, the Browns put up 34 points on the Pats, the Giants put up 41 points on the Seahawks, and the Packers put up 45 points against the Cowboys?

    Maybe it's the level of competition we're facing but the question needs to asked: What is wrong with our offense?

    1. Is it talent? We have some elite talent on our offense. Brandon Marshall, Jake Long, Ronnie Brown, Ricky Williams, and I'd even include Lou Polite. But after a loss like the one against the Ravens yesterday fans start clamoring for better wideouts, better running backs, or a better QB. Is that the answer? Do we need more talent on offense? Or do we have enough to get it done?

    2. Is it the offensive line? Long is a stud. Carey is better than most. But the interior players are starting for us for the first time this season. Are we all set at OG with Incognito and Jerry? Is Berger the answer at Center? Is this group only going to get better with time or do we need an upgrade?
    3. Is it the tight end? Every year I hear fans clamoring for an elite receiving tight end who can pick up chunks of yardage in the seam? Is that the missing piece of the puzzle? Or can Fasano be that guy?

    4. Is the play-calling? Is Henning too old? Too conservative? Is he holding Henne back? Does he abandon the run too early to stick to some preconceived game plan or to get Marshall more involved? Is Sparano involved enough? Or is he involved too much?

    5. Is it our overall philosophy? The Jets like to "ground and pound." The Packers run the West Coast offense. And it doesn't seem to matter who you plug into San Diego or New England's offense. Are our coaches making the best use of our talent or are they trying to fit square pegs into round holes?

    6. Is it the QB? Every great offense has a great quarterback. Is Henne the guy? Is he capable of greatness? Or is he a turnover machine unwilling or incapable of making big plays down the field?

    Look at the top QBs this season: Rivers, Brees, Orton, Rodgers, Schaub, and Eli Manning all developed over time. As did Romo, Cassel, Hasselbeck, and Garrard. Brady, Favre, McNabb, Vick, Palmer, and Peyton Manning developed much quicker but even they have gotten better over time. (Although Palmer seems to have regressed.)

    Flacco, Ryan, Freeman, Sanchez, Bradford, and Stafford are Henne's contemporaries. Are any of them clearly better? (Maybe they are. Maybe they aren't. I'm not sure. Just posing the question.)
     
  2. eric

    eric New Member

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    cant wait till next year
     
  3. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    The following is my opinion
    1 talent, yes we have some but in Marshals case, we do not have a QB willing to take chances down the field to get him the ball and the QB is supported by the OC and the OC issupported by the GM and HC
    2 Oline. IMO Long, Incognito Carey are fine. We need a better center and have to see if Jerry works out. Right now apparently we are playing sub the RG like we do with RBs
    3 I was always in support of Fasano but now I even have doubts. In the RARE times he gets the ball thrown his way, if its a good pass to him, he drops it the majority of the time. Not a great blocker in the run game either.
    4 Play calling, I agree 100% Henning has to go. He got fired in Carolina for calling so so games his final season and a half
    5 is it overall philosophy, not even sure anymore what that philosophy is. Its certainly not pounding the ball, we did that yesterday, was successful and then completely stopped. Its not passing because anyone in their right mind knows you cannot be successful on checkdown passing routes.
    6 Is it the QB, at this stage I am sorry to say, yes it is. Too many teams that are decent give too many QBs too much time to " develop " I think what we see in Chad Henne right now is the best we are going to see in Chad Henne. I cannot remember the last time, rookie or experienced, good or bad QB, a QB slide as many times combined with a pissss pooor passing performance as I saw yesterday. Henne will not throw a deep ball even its its single coverage if the defender is close to his receiver. That is how you go downfield. You have to throw that ball up there. Even when in a rare instance our receivers get behind the defender, Henne does not even look at him. Do not want to ramble on, IMO, Chad Henne has progressed as far as he will progress. I mean helllll, when a QB like the kid in Buffalo passes for 3-4 TDs a week with a lesser Oline and one good decent receiver, then yeah, Henne needs to go, do not want Fitzpatrick either but at this stage he is doing better then Henne is.
     
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  4. Big Red

    Big Red Long Lasting Freshness

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    Really? I feel like we are about as talented as a team can be on offense. I mean what other team has four or five players as good as Marshall, Long, Brown, Williams, and Polite? I would love to see some comparisons. Here's one: The Packers. They scored 45 points yesterday. Their five best players on offense are Rodgers, Jennings, (Driver?), Finley, Kuhn, and Clifton or Bulaga.

    BTW Finley and Driver didn't even play yesterday.

    I agree that Center may be a concern but I haven't heard much chatter about it. The rotating RG position cannot be good for continuity.

    Stats aren't everything but I was surprised to learn that Fasano has a better average than Witten, Carlson, Celek, Gronkowski, Winslow, Shockey, Gonzalez, Pettigrew, and Clark. He only has 2 touchdowns but just one more would place him among the Top 10 in the NFL. I'm not saying we can't upgrade the position but at 13 YPC we cannot point to the lack of a seam-busting TE as one of our biggest problems on offense right now.

    I am not sure that is true. And I am not saying Henning has to go. But there has to be some reason why we didn't score a single point in the second half yesterday. I mean the Bills put up 34 points on the Ravens last week!

    I believe we should come out of the gate pounding the rock. It should be Ronnie and Ricky all the way until the opposing defense can stop it. Then if they stop the run we start throwing it to Marshall, Bess, Marshall, Hartline, Marshall, Fasano, and Marshall. Once they're on their heels trying to cover those guys you pound the rock again.

    I would like to see us go long on 1st down at least once a quarter. If you hit that just once it's 6 points.

    I also like the Wildcat in the redzone. Put the ball in Ronnie's hands and let him score. I hate that fade pass to the corner. I don't believe we have ever hit that. Ever.

    Beyond that I think you look at your opponent's weaknesses. If they're susceptible to the screen, run screen passes. If they're susceptible to play action, run play action.

    But, yeah, I couldn't tell you what the Dolphins' offensive philosophy is right now.

    Very good point about Fitzpatrick. He has more touchdowns and less interceptions. That's not good. The QB position is tricky. You don't want to give up on a guy too early. For all intents and purposes Henne is in his second year.

    Flacco's 2nd year: 315/499 for 3613 yards (63.1%) 21 TDs and 12 INTs for a QB Rating of 88.9
    Ryan's 2nd year: 263/451 for 2916 yards (58.3%) 22 TDs 14 INTs for a QB Rating of 80.9
    Roethlisberger's 2nd year: 168/268 for 2385 yards (62.7%) 17 TDs and 9 INTs for a QB Rating of 98.6
    Brady's 2nd year: 373/601 for 3764 yards (62.1%) 28 TDS and 14 INTs for a QB Rating of 85.7
    Favre's 2nd year: 318/522 for 3303 yards (60.9%) 19 TDs and 24 INTs for a QB Rating of 72.2

    Henne's 2nd year: 176/277 for 1900 yards (63.5%) 8 TDs and 10 INTs for a QB Rating of 78.2

    If you doubled his numbers:

    Henne's 2nd year: 352/554 for 3800 yards (63.5%) 16 TDs and 20 INTs for a QB Rating 78.2

    (Of course we all know it doesn't work like that.)

    Anyway, it's safe to say Henne isn't going anywhere this season. I am curious to see how he finishes.
     
  5. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Our QB isn't playing very well. Thats really the biggest issue right now.

    We also can't run the ball.

    But our QB isn't playing well. Can't be good on offense in the NFL when the QB isn't playing well.
     
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  6. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    1. We have a bottom tier TE..... with nothing behind him.

    2. We have zero playmakers/homerun threats to stretch the field or gain chunk yardage, and we're bypassing them in the draft for conservative possession guys. Marshall and Bess are NOT playmakers when they DON'T have the space to actually make plays. Without the needed space, they're reduced to ONLY possession receivers.

    3. We have a mediocre #2 who should be a #4 who poses no real threat to single coverage.

    4. We have a #4 & #5 WR who are undrafted rookies with 2 catches for 18 yards combined.

    5. We have an inconsistent ground game.

    6. We have backs who aren't a serious threat catching the ball like a true COP back can be (like a Jhavid Best).

    7. We have an OC who's time has passed him by.

    8. All of this is making us play inside a 20 yard box at a time.

    9. We have a horrendous punt/kick return game that doesn't allow us quality field position.

    10. Our defense is ranked 31st in turnovers which is creating more pressure for the offense and not providing as many short field opportunities.

    11. We have a 2nd year starting/developing QB facing 5 of the 6 best defenses who's being asked to make up for ALL of the above and carry the damn team on his shoulders. A QB can only be as good as the resources he has to work with, which is why teams like Indy, NO, NE, Giants, etc surround their franchise QBs with playmakers b/c they KNOW that a QB can't do it by himself no matter how talented he is.

    Did I miss anything? LOL
     
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  7. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    juan huron isnt on it.
     
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  8. Miguel

    Miguel The smartest Man on earth

    Whats wrong with Our offense??? Simple.

    Execution
    Chad Henne
     
  9. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    i just think its inconsistency. at times its henne, at times its a missed block, other times its a dropped pass. what's frustrating is that when the blunders come they seem to come at crucial times and kill scoring opportunities or drives.

    i think the coaches have given henne an opportunity at times this year to be a playmaker but so far he has failed when given the opportunity. we still have to call plays that baby him. i think the reason we arent trying to throw deep is because henne simply isnt that good at it. they are low percentage plays even when you have peyton manning throwing. to have someone like henne throw who is in the bottom half of long throwers makes it a wasted play in all likelihood.

    one thing that seems to be a promising development lately is that the run blocking seems to be improving every week. if we can establish the run again, then i think we have the type of team that can win alot of games with our play action philosophy
     
  10. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    All these things you're saying really just show how solid of a job Dan Henning has done as OC. Despite all these deficiencies you list, we still do a hell of a job getting receivers open for Henne.

    I could write a novel on the instances where we have had open receivers, and the QB hasn't got them the ball. He's not being asked to carry anything on his shoulders, just carry his own weight. There are plays being left on the field by the QB.
     
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  11. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    Did you watch the first offensive drive of the game yesterday at all? Ronnie ran right down the field on Baltimore. As a reward he was taken out of the game. Henning all of a sudden in his mind invented that we have a big time passing arsenal which isn't true. I have been saying all season that our identity is running the ball and then pass but nope Henning is senile and doesn't understand that you have to protect a young QB not treat him like Dan Marino. Henning does not give this offense a chance to be successful instead he has bought into the impatient fan concept and feels he must air it out always to win. If we would even try to stick with the run success might be there. Instead the old man continues to put Henne in a position to fail.
    Very dumb.
     
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  12. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Or maybe Henne is actually doing a solid job considering what he has to work with and and OC calling play action on 3rd and long while trailing by 2 scores in the 4th quarter.

    You could also write a novel on every QB in the league where they had open receivers and didn't get them the ball. Until we get that cast, it's not very fair to say it's the QB's fault. If we get him an appropriate cast that takes us out of the 20 yard box and he still has problems, then I'll be the first to focus the blame on him.

    Again, a QB can only be as good as the cast that he has to work with.
     
  13. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    where should we have run? should we have turned into a running team in the two minute drive? i thought the object of a two minute drive is to gain yards quickly? honestly when should we have run. we were behind the whole game and our defense wasnt stopping the ravens on any drive.
     
  14. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    It's a little difficult to have confidence in throwing deep when you don't have a legitimate deep threat that instills that confidence. It's like playing poker and believing that 2 pairs will consistently make you a winner. I'd settle for a 3 of a kind type deep threat at this point.
     
  15. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Well, if we weren't stopping them they we should've ran more to slow down the tempo and reduce their # of possessions, hence reducing the # of times our defense would be forced to stop them. Just being devil's advocate here.
     
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  16. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    which is why i hate ross. i think we shouldve kept ginn for the speed threat. but apparently he told the FO that he wanted to cut costs on our backups which is why we probably got rid of Ginn, the offensive line, Grant, Douglas, etc
     
  17. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yep, to many choke jobs instead of playmakers, the way I see it the only player on Offense who has stepped up is Brian Hartline, even then, his mojo is not great.



    Adamp!?!?

    Welcome to what I am seeing, the "darkside" as it were, Henne is not playing well at all, and is mostly the largest problem on offence.

    To his credit, his play action passing motion has really improved, I watched for it during the Ravens game, and he was spot on.

    Though the int to Hartline..off of playaction...though it was on Hartline for slipping..that is why his Heart is there, his Mojo is not on the totally positive side of the ledger just yet.
     
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  18. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I completely agree. We shouldn't have dumped Ginn unless we had a plan to find his replacement..... which of course we didn't.

    Now one of the best receivers in the league is rendered a possession receiver b/c defenses can basically drape defenders all over him so he cant utilize his YAC ability. That's gotta be EXTREMELY frustrating for Brandon!!!! Is it too late to trade our 3rd round for Jacoby Ford? :lol:
     
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  19. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    we had four possessions in the first half when the game was still possible to run. the first we ran, the second henne throws a pick, the 3rd our first play was a screen to marshall on first down where noone blocked for him and we lost 4 yds. you're not running on 2nd and 14. and the play was correct. one of the ways you keep a aggressive defense honest is to throw those passes. the 4th possession we had less than 3 minutes on the clock and an entire field to work. quite frankly if you want to know why we didnt run its because game situation prevented us from doing that and that is entirely on the defense.
     
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  20. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    If Henning has us dinking and dunking in a 20 yard box at a time, then what's it matter if we're running it or throwing it. :shifty:


    :tongue2: j/k.
     
  21. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    oh i see it too. i just am willing to let him work through it and suffer the losses if we must :lol::cry: his play action has improved dramatically in the last three games. his movement in the pocket has improved slightly, he is starting to look off receivers, his progressions are night and day from last year. he often goes to his third or 4th read nowadays

    whats killing henne and our offense IMO is he still doesnt know how to attack zone coverage aggressively. every time he tries he seems to get picked. so he ends up looking for the dump offs. i think he also gives up on routes too quickly. if someone isnt instantly open he moves on to his next progression. i think thats leaving alot of plays on the field. sometimes a receiver may be covered one second but open the next. i think that comes with experience and knowing your matchups. maybe its too much to expect from a guy with 20 starts
     
  22. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    We can probably thank the cussing practice horn for classically conditioning him to be in a hurry for that one. :tantrum:
     
  23. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    thats the thing with henning, anyone who watched the panthers superbowl run or the doug williams redskins knows this guy likes to throw deep off of the play action. so when his team is just dinking and dunking there is a reason for it. and the reason is henne and like you said a deep threat that can take a safety with him and open up the middle of the field. we need a speed receiver and we need henne to take another step in his progress. hopefully we get both next year and then i believe you will start seeing henning give the green light to henne to air it out
     
  24. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    could be. its an interesting debate. do you let them wing it around and throw picks but also make plays and hope they reign in the mistakes as they grow or do you make them play safe and slowly evolve them to be more aggressive? i think the answer is predicated on the defense. if you have a good defense then have them play safely. if your defense sucks have them wing it IMO
     
  25. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    For our sake, I pray you're right!!! :yes:

    I wonder if we have the checkbook/room to sign Sims-Walker AND Carl Nicks or Mankins. It would be so nice if we only needed a COP back and a TE from the draft as our main offensive needs.
     
  26. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    IMO a QB should be allowed to learn and trust his instincts etc rather than have them dictated to him. It might be a longer trial and error process but the final product should be more productive and efficient.
     
  27. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I swear one guy I would like to pick up is Todd Watkins. The guy is nothing special but runs a 4.2. he would make an interesting 5th receiver project
     
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  28. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I'm not familiar with him to be honest..... but I like 4.2. The Raiders are slowly becoming scary as their guys develop.
    4.2 Bey
    4.2 Ford
    4.3 Murphy
    4.3 McFadden
    4.5 Miller

    They don't even have an elite line yet the threat of their speed is opening up their ground game. Imagine if we drafted Wallace & Ford. :cry:
     
  29. frozenfin

    frozenfin Well-Known Member

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    It's entirely on the defense that Henne threw 3 interceptions, one of which on the 2nd play of the 2nd drive of the game? The defense (and a few Raven blunders) kept us in the game for the entire first half.

    The last rushing play of the game was with 8:22 left in the 3rd quarter, down by 10. Why was the run completely abandonded at that point, when it was successful early in the game? In my opinion that is way too early to start throwing on every down, with a 2nd year QB starter, against the Ravens. Down by 10 with over 20 minutes of football left to play? It didn't work... 0 points in the 2nd half.

    This team has run for over 120 yards in all 4 games we've won this year, and run for less than 100 yards in all 4 games we've lost. Sparano usually obsesses over stats like that.
     
  30. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    you could be right. its an interesting debate. i do think its predicated slightly on the defense. flacco and ryan had defenses so they were reigned in like we are doing and its worked for them but sanchez has been allowed to wing it preiodically and its worked for them too.
     
  31. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    Todd, i'm with you .... Henne will surely make his share of mistakes -- but i'd rather have him be a gunslinger and learn that way, then to have the Parcells rules over his head .... but this regime wants to win now -- obviously we aren't, but we 'should' over this 2d half of the season, so the box mentality is not about to change.
     
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  32. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    he got cut by the raiders because they had bey and ford. he would make a play occasionally but he played during the jamarcus years :lol: so i would like to give him another chance with a better qb.
     
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  33. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    :ban:

    Or, he will never "get it", would not be the first time a young Qb showed promise only to flame out, Rick Mirer, Byron Leftwich etc.

    That is why I'm a proponent of Pennington, I see him as a home run, Thiggy vs Henne is 50-50, I think Thiggy's mobility and guts would give us a spark, but I also think it is hard to play like that successfully for more than tops..4 games.
     
  34. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    not sure how our defense kept us in the game when the ravens didnt punt once the entire game. let me repeat, they didnt punt once the entire game. obviously the defense didnt cause henne to throw interceptions. what our defnsive problems forced however was the abandonment from the run. you could say we should be running with 20 minutes to go but when its obvious our defense cant stop their offense you have to play for more than the 10 points you are down because the likelihood is our defense is going to keep giving up points. so the scoreboard could show us being down by 10 but we have to play as if we're down by 20
     
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  35. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    its possible he never gets it but we have to wait till next season IMO to make that evaluation. zone is tricky, especially 3-4 teams that drop back different linebackers. he will have to be better at beating cover 2 next year, no excuses. this year just do your best and hope its enough

    i would never put in thigpen. the guy is too wild. with pennington he isnt the future and all my hopes are for next year so i want henne too have as much experience as possible. this year for me is just about watching the team compete. next year i want results
     
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  36. finfaninilinois

    finfaninilinois Active Member

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    yep Todd its every aspect except Henne give me a fnin break
     
  37. frozenfin

    frozenfin Well-Known Member

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    Here is how the defense kept us in the game:

    Ravens 2nd drive, they go down the field converting some first downs, get in the red zone, force Flacco to scramble on 2nd down, then on 3rd & 1 at the 7 yard line they stuff McClain for a loss. Field goal is kicked, 3 points instead of 7.

    Ravens 3rd possession, after Henne interception is returned to the Miami 4 yard line for 1st and goal, a stuffed run and two sacks leads to a field goal attempt which is a botched snap. Zero points instead of 7.

    Ravens 4th possession, after Dolphins punt, Ravens take over at their own 40 yard line, get mauled by Rice and McGagee, then two Raven penalties leads to 3rd & 11 at Miami 14, Wake sacks Flacco. Field goal is kicked, 3 points instead of 7.

    At this point the Dolphins get the ball for their drive at the end of the first half, then get the ball after half time. The score is 13-7. The Ravens had three red zone possessions after their opening drive, and came away with six points on those possessions. The score could have easily been 28-7 or 24-7 or 21-7, but even though the defense gave up some plays, they made a stand in the red zone when they had to.

    With two possessions down by only 5, Miami has no reason to take the lead at this point, except their offense didn't execute once again. Field goal in the red zone and a punt is how those possessions ended.

    At some point the offense has to take control of a game. We can't win them all with scores like 14-10 or 22-14.
     
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  38. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    look i agree that execution is killing us, but i was explaining why we abandoned the run. that two minute or three minute drive was all passing. agree we should have scored a TD and if Henne hits Fasano we do. Its all execution, its not playcalling. And our defense will determine whether we can run or pass. So long as our defense proves it can stop the opposing offense we can run. if we are behind and our defense is giving up scores and time consuming drives (even if they score field goals) we have to pass. there's no difference in losing by three points or twenty. its still a loss
     
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  39. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Read my post rather than running your friggin mouth. he's listed at #11. Apology accepted. :wink2:
     
  40. frozenfin

    frozenfin Well-Known Member

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    Feb 26, 2010
    Wisconsin
    I totally get why we didn't run in the two minute drive, it was one of the best hurry-up end of half/game drives I have seen from the Dolphins in a long time... until we got to the goal line and couldn't get into the end zone. But again, I was excited to see the team get some first downs, move the ball, and get some points with little time left on the clock. It was textbook.

    The most important possession of the game was after halftime, having just moved down the field and scored to make it 13-10. Problem is, we went 3 and out.

    Without the defense holding the Ravens to field goal attempts in the first half, none of that means squat.

    I still have a problem with zero running plays after midway through the 3rd. We pulled out enough play-action fakes in the 4th, but couldn't hand the ball off once to keep the defense a little honest? We have a knack for handing off in unexpected circumstances, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I'm surprised we didn't try, not even once in the last 22 minutes of the game. Miami had two possessions with the score 20-10 with a lot of time left on the clock, play calling on those possessions was 2 runs, 13 passes. The first of those two runs was a nice 9 yard pickup by Ronnie on 1st down. Then he picked up the 1st on 2nd & 1. Then we called 12 passing plays in a row. Put the game not in Henne's hands, but rather on his shoulders. It didn't work. Zero points in the 2nd half.

    One last thought from me for the evening, think about the 3rd and 3 play at the Ravens 22 before Carpenter's missed field goal. Henne got sacked for a 6 yard loss. Could some kind of running play have been attempted to get that 1st down? Maybe, maybe not. Don't think many running plays would have lost 6 yards, and maybe then Carp wouldn't have missed a 40 yard field goal vs the 46 this time.

    But at the same time, yes you are right, we would have still lost the game 26-13 instead of 26-10, whoop de doo. A loss is a loss. But at that time it would have been 20-13, maybe the D can actually make a stop and give the offense a chance to tie. But none of that happened.

    I understand your point of view though and respect it, thank you for the discussion. Go Dolphins! :hi5:
     
    Big Red and adamprez2003 like this.

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