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Fuel to the fire for our substandard play calling: Tenn CB knew our routes pre-snap

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ToddsPhins, Nov 15, 2010.

  1. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    CK noted this in a post but I feel it deserves its own thread so members don't miss it..... especially everyone who still believe that our offensive woes are on Henne's shoulders.

    The following comes 1 week after Ed Reed called Henne
    http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_football_dolphins/2010/11/was-it-finnegan-or-dolphins-offense-frustrating-marshall.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sports%2FMiamiDolphinsweblog+%28Miami+Dolphins+|+Sun-Sentinel+Blogs%29

    That's all we need-- defenses being able to single up Marshall b/c they can tell what routes are coming. :pity: I'd be furious, too, if I were Marshall. We're lucky he only chucked the football. And how the heck is this supposed to help a young QB develop when the cards become stacked against him like this?!

    Now we have 2 players talking about how obvious our offensive play calling is. If this isn't an indictment of how bad Henning is, then I don't know what is. Reed doesn't come out and say Henning is pathetic, but he's basically stating the same thing that Finnegan said-- that we're predictable, and he knows that Balt doesn't have to worry about Henne audibling the calls etc b/c he's not allowed to..... b/c he's doing what the coaches ask of him. We can't fault Henne for listening to his bosses.

    Basically Henning is trying to make Henne into his very own, virtual QB. Henning, ego maniac, dude, just buy yourself a friggin XBOX and play Madden like the rest of us will ya...... and quit f#@%ing with our team! You're an old dog who needs to be taken out back and shot. Just sayin. :yes:
     
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  2. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I find it hard to believe because I believe two things would have happened.

    #1. A double route.
    #2. Dolphins would have thrown for less than 300 yards passing.

    Honestly, how pathetic is your defense if you knew 80 percent of their routes and you still let up 300 yards, 8.5 yards per pass and 2 touchdowns.
     
  3. BlameItOnTheHenne

    BlameItOnTheHenne Taking a poop

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    Yeah, they still couldn't stop them lol.
     
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  4. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    No wonder Marshall threw that ball. That some serious trash talkin'...
     
  5. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    They didn't say they knew 80% of all the routes. They knew 80% of Brandon Marshall's routes. The others might have been less predictable, especially routes run by interior players, and other defenders were probably worse at figuring out the tendencies than Finnegan, who is a Pro Bowler.
     
  6. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Coming a week after Ed Reed's comments it sounds like the offense as a whole is pretty predictable. Finnegan did mention "formations" which leads me to think it's not just BM.
     
  7. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    This all plays into what CoachMike was saying about how simplistic our play calling is from receiver routes to formations to motioning players etc. We're like the pop-warner offense of the NFL. :lol: Add in the play-action 3rd and long or draws on 3rd and 65, and I bet we're the joke of the league inside locker rooms. Universal NFL halftime speech: "Hey, we gotta change up our formations etc before we Dolphin ourselves to death!!" :shifty:
     
  8. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    I thought Henning was crafty against Tenn and I rarely say that.
    Marshall is a hired decoy and over rated. Finnegan was in his head yesterday and it showed.
    I'm happy we discovered we have a TE again and the middle of the field is a wide open space.
     
  9. FinsAreLife

    FinsAreLife Well-Known Member

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    Henning was slightly better in PC against tenn. I still think he needs to go. Regardless, we have no shot at the playoffs if we cant run the ball.
     
  10. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Agree..... I was pleasantly surprised with his craftiness as well, but like the Wildcat, there's only so far that craftiness can take us before it runs much of its course IMO. But it helped get us a win, so that's something to build on. It's almost like Henning was reading ThePhins and realized he needed to up his game and do something a little more drastic...... less conservative. :shifty:

    Amen to using the middle of the field!!

    I don't think Marshall is overrated as much as he is the type of WR who needs a surrounding cast that allows him to do what he does best-- make plays in space, where as DeSean Jackson doesn't need any help blowing DB's doors off. If we don't get the offense another weapon to capture some of the defense's attention, then I agree he will "appear" somewhat overrated here.
     
  11. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    A weapon is fine yeah we need one but you have to find holes in the Bears zone Thurs. That is the crux this week. Use Cobbs... Fasano and move the sticks. Put Thigpen on the move.... It's about space and not the deep balls. Marshall's frustration is self important.
     
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  12. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    I certainly wouldn't say the Denver had much of a supporting cast around Marshall. Marshall is on pace to have the same numbers with Miami he had with Denver...98 catches, 1159 yards, 2 TDs...

    TD catches are down, but from what I recall Henne has not been willing to risk throwing to Marshall in the end zone where a jump ball. I think Henne has been over-coached resulting in not taking any risks.
     
  13. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    dan henning's playcalling hasnt been the problem. its been the players execution. if marshall's routes are predictable that is because they are meant to be. they are designed to simply move the defender or defenders to where we want him to be while we attack the vacated area or a different area entirely. if i want marshall to take the corner and safety with him to clear out an area underneath I am not going to call a route that will confuse the DBs. I want the DBs to know exactly where my receiver is going because the goal of the route is to have them follow him. Marshall is being used to stretch zones to open up the underneath stuff. Its pretty obvious that Henning is using Marshall's threat to open up areas for the other receivers usually underneath but against tennessee also across the middle
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2010
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  14. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    That's ludicrous considering all they did was play Finnegan on him with only a little help against him deep. That's nothing.
     
  15. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    The thing about decoys is that they aren’t effective if you don’t use the right bait. Marshall can’t be a decoy based on only past reputation. He needs to prove it. That means he actually needs to be utilized in the passing game—none of these silly reverses or gimmick passes to Pat Cobbs—for any of what you describe to work consistently.
     
  16. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    well he's on pace for over 1000 yds so its not like we're abandoning him, its just we're not going to target him 20 times a game.
     
  17. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    i was speaking about the season more than just the tennessee game but even the tennessee game you had two other receivers gain almost 100 yds each in Fasano and Hartline. Who are you going to attack Finnegan or a rookie Verner? or a middle linebacker? or Chris Hope?
     
  18. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    1000 yards isn’t a huge target these days. Maybe to us it is, because haven’t had good receiver play in a decade, but to the rest of the NFL it’s just par for the course. The big problem with Marshall is that his production is declining week to week.

    Week 6: 10 rec, 127 yards, 0 TD
    Week 7: 5 rec, 57 yards, 0 TD
    Week 8: 5 rec, 64 yards, 0 TD
    Week 9: 5 rec, 30 yards, 0 TD
    Week 10: 3 rec, 34 yards, 0 TD

    That is not a respectable decoy.
     
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  19. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    These comments and Ed Reeds comments. And people still defend our senile OC who's been a part of 9 winning seasons and 5 top 10 offenses in his 31 NFL season career.
     
  20. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    he will be leaned on more in the upcoming weeks especially if thigpen is starting and because of that his routes will become less predictable. Henning will dial up variations of the routes and the DBs will think they know whats coming and it will be something different
     
  21. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    name his QBs in those years and you will understand those numbers. His reputation has always been he can get more with less. Its funny how fanbases hate the guy yet in coaching circles the guy is considered one of the best. Just shows the disconnect between armchair gms and the real stuff
     
  22. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    If. If. If.

    I have no faith in Henning’s ability to adjust at halftime, let alone with three days against a poorly-coached Bears team that’s scrambling to dig up archived footage of Thigpen from his KC days.
     
  23. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    Blame it on the QB. Henning is terrible, most people know this. Sadly most of those people doesn't consist of Sparano, who's fairly incompetent in his own right. It's quite obvious by his philosophy and playcalling. The only reputation he has, is one of being terrible conservative. Anyone looking to compete sure wouldn't hire him. Which probably explains his career on losing teams, and bad offenses. But yea, keep blaming his terrible track record on the QB's. Keep telling yourself he's done more with less, when the fact is that hasn't been good enough only being a part of 5 top 10 offenses, and only 9 winning seasons in 31 years.

    You'll come around when he's gone and the offense miraculously starts putting up points. Though if you've been so naive up to this point, perhaps you'll just find another excuse for him. Though there's also a good chance our offense doesn't get better as Morano is as big a problem as Henning is.
     
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  24. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    Fasano beeing that wide open is because of marshall
     
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  25. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    well since you know so much about being an offensive coordinator why dont you describe some of his run blocking concepts or his passing philosophy
     
  26. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    It's sad you have to go to your 3rd string QB to finally utilize Marshall properly.

    In other news the play-calling was a pleasant surprise Sunday. Right after Henne threw that pick I wasn't even mad; I was ecstatic that we were calling so many deep plays. How much perspective does that put it in if I'm celebrating the OC's call when the QB throws a pick? :lol:

    As to the comments from opponent DB's, I 100% believe them. Why would two different DB's from two different teams make this up? They'd have no motivation. They also backed up their claims by largely shutting out Marshall, and (in Baltimore's case) intercepting Henne multiple times. The proof is in the pudding.

    Henning needs to switch it up more, which he was starting to do in the Tennessee game.
    [​IMG]
     
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  27. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    i think thats a valid criticism this year. i liked his halftime adjustments last year but this yeaar they havent been stellar
     
  28. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

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    We wont be that predictatable this thursday....at least in the first half.
     
  29. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    So what you're saying is that for 80% of the game Brandon isn't meant to be utilized at all except for making room for the other players to work? :huh:
    Well if that's the case, then either way we've got a problem, and the OC has to go. LOL. So basically we're taking one of the best receivers in the NFL out of the game.... or taking the ball out of his hands so inferior players can catch more passes etc? I'm sorry, but if our OC can't figure out ways to get the ball to our top playmaker's hands (without trying to use gimmicks all game) and rather has to resort to using him as a decoy to help inferior players, then this guy is seriously holding us back. I can understand being a decoy from time to time, but not for most of a game. That's senseless.

    What this is unarguably also telling me (if it's true) is that Hartline, Fasano, Williams, and Ronnie are mediocre receivers in the passing game b/c legitimate offenses have quality enough personnel to where they don't need to use their best player as a decoy to move the ball..... and don't need to rely on trick plays to pick up chunk yards. Does Hakeem Nicks act as a nearly full time decoy so Smith, Manningham and Co can get the ball more? No, they get that stud the ball.... and as often as possible so he can do what he does best and make plays.

    If we don't draft or sign at least 3 playmakers on offense (RB, TE, WR) and Henning is still retained, then I'm seriously thinking about becoming an Eagles, Giants, or dare say it- Raiders fan. :lol:
     
  30. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    And expensive. What would that make Marshall...a $45 million decoy? Shoot man, gimmie one tenth of that, and I'd be as giddy as a school boy on prom day.

    I also believe the story is true. And, I think TP said it best...if this isn't an indictment of how bad Henning is, then I don't know what is.
     
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  31. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    the key quote finnegan had was "the formation tells me the route except when he's trying to trick you" (paraphrasing) well guess what, those 80% of the time you know the route, we're not targeting Marshall, we're targeting others. We're setting you up as a DB to get comfortable thinking you know the routes and our tendencies based off formation so that when we do want to get the ball to marshall we switch it up and run a play to "trick" you by breaking our tendency. there are plays called in the course of the game that are meant to set you up for a bigger play down the road.

    Also, anyone who knows Henning, knows that the guy's modus operandi is to attack the weakness of a defense not go after its strength. Thats why we are always throwing underneath against cover 2. That and we dont have a seam busting TE or a slot receiver with speed. Cortland Finnegan is not the weakness of the Titans secondary. Verner was the guy we were targeting and the middle of the field. just like we targeted Kyle Wilson against the Jets. If you want to know who we are going to attack look for the weakest spot in the defense. The Bears defense is tough. I dont expect to be attacking Urlacher and we're probably going to avoid Tillman. I expect Tim Jennings to have the crosshairs on him. I could also see Bess targeted if Daniel Manning is on him.

    As for the criticism that we should attack with our best players rather than always rely on the best matchups, I think there is a grain of truth to that. I would like to see a bit of a tweek where we target Marshall a bit more regardless of matchups. Just a touch though. I dont want to target Marshall 15 times a game if there are better matchups out there but eight to ten attempts should be the minimum. When we go under eight attempts I feel we're not giving him a chance to create. But thats just nitpicking and slightly different philosophy. Thats not a reason to say he sucks.
     
  32. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    and just to add. lets not forget which defenses we have played

    1) against the best defense in the league (pts against) green bay, we scored the 3rd most points in the season against them and beat their average 15.9 by 7.1 points by scoring 23

    2) against the 3rd best defense the Jets we scored the most points they have given up all year and beat their average 16.7 points against by scoring 23

    3) against the 5th best defense the steelers we scored the second most points they gave up all year and beat their average of 18 by scoring 22

    4) against the 9th ranked titans defense we scored the second most points all year 29 against their average of 19.9

    baltimore is the only top ten defense that shut us down by holding us to 10 points. now we face the 2nd best defense in the league with a 3rd string QB and two injuries to the offensive line and i almost guarantee if we score the average they have given up 16.2, people will say its because henning sucks lol not because of the defnse or the presonal we have to play with

    this schedule is brutal lol. after the bears game we will have played four of the top five defenses in the league. how sick is that?
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2010
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  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Your logic doesn't make sense.

    It doesn't take into account the concept of a progression...at all.

    Your entire argument is based on the assumption that every play call has an intended target and it should go to that intended target.

    This is false.
     
  34. gilv13

    gilv13 Well-Known Member

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    Lol, I was the same way. I wasn't even mad, I was happy we threw it deep.
     
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  35. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    well i simplified the argument. an extended elaboration on it would take several pages. as for intended target, i believe he does run a "concept" offense that has a primary target on almost every play depending on the defensive alignment. He does target the weakest link in almost every game. Obviously if the play isnt there then the QB should go through his progressions but henning isnt one to just draw up plays for the sake of drawing plays. there's a reason behind his playcalling and it usually revolves around exploiting the weaknesses of the defense. at least in the passing game. with running, when he has a dominant running game (not this yr) he will pound the ball even if its to the defenses strength. but this year that isnt working so we are almost always targeting the weak links sometimes at the expense of playing to our strengths if you consider marshall our strength
     
  36. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Just like how Bobby Bowden is (was) considered one of the best of all time? :shifty:

    Nobody's impervious to time or change. :tongue2: No disrespect AP, but the guy's old and in a league that's passed him by IMO. He might've been "regarded" as one of the best in the past, but that's certainly not the case the last decade.... or 2. This league now seems too sophisticated for him to keep up with w/o the aid of gimmicks and tricks to bail him out IMO.


    *Here's a look at Henning's OC track since 2002:

    2002
    Offense: 30th ranked Pts/game (16.1); 31st Yards/game; 31st Yards/play
    Defense: 2nd ranked YPG/5th ranked PPG

    2003
    Offense:15th PPG (20.3)..... 16th YPG.... 17th YPP
    Defense:10th PPG..... 8th YPG

    2004
    Offense: 13th PPG (22.2).... 13th YPG.... 13th YPP
    Defense: 15th PPG.... 20th YPG

    2005
    Offense: 8th PPG (24.4).... 20nd YPG.... 12th YPP
    Defense: 5th PPG.... 3rd YPG

    2006
    Offense: 27th PPG (16.9).... 24th YPG.... 23rd YPP
    Defense: 8th PPG.... 5th YPG

    In Carolina, that's 19.9 PPG averaged over 5 years. By 2010's standard, that's roughly good enough for a tie for 23rd.

    Add in 2008's 21st ranked offense (21.6 PPG), 2009's 15th ranked (22.5 PPG), 2010's 25th ranked (19.3 PPG) and you get an 8 year average of 20.5 PPG...... good enough for 21st by 2010's standards. Now I'm no geometry major, but that seems pretty lackluster as far as I'm concerned. He's looked ok at times b/c he's had the aid of a strong defense, but what OC wouldn't when their defense is winning games for them.



    Falcons offense from 1983-86 as Head Coach:
    1983: 10th ranked PPG (23.1)
    1984: 22nd PPG (17.6)
    1985: 26th PPG (17.6)... at least he was consistent. :shifty:
    1986: 21st PPG (17.3)
    ****stats make it look like he took a good offense and ran it into the ground. :lol:

    Chargers offense from 1989-91 as Head Coach:
    1989: 23rd ranked PPG (16.6)
    1990: 17th PPG (19.7)
    1991: 21st PPG (17.1)

    Lions OC 1992-1993:
    1992: 19th PPG (17.1)
    1993: 16th PPG (18.6)

    1997 Bills stint as OC: 29th ranked (out of 30) PPG (15.9).

    2000 Jets OC stint: 17th ranked PPG (20.1)


    19 year Grand total as an OC & HC: 19.2 PPG average...... good enough for 25th in the league in 2010, and ironically is the exact same amount of PPG we're averaging now :lol:. So IMO we're not underperforming in a way that many people think. We're simply performing exactly to Henning's 19 year standard.

    For those of you who still throw blame at our 2nd year QB, look again. This is par for Henning's course.... so if par isn't acceptable for you Henne scape-goaters, then maybe you should blame the guy with the prolonged history of offensive mediocrity rather than the young QB who, as a 1st year starter, put up the 3rd highest PPG average of Henning's lackluster career. (not directing any of this at you AP)

    Regarding the teams that are "in the coaching circle who think Henning's one of the best"..... these don't include the numerous teams who have fired him over the years do they? (ok, this one was directed at you) Nee-ner-nee-ner
     
  37. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    As Henning himself said, he draws up plays to where if you had three different QBs running the play the ball might go to three different spots, based on what the QB sees. Your logic that the 80% of routes that Cortland Finnegan knew were all decoy routes and that the other 20% were intended for Marshall is therefore just bad logic. The offense heads to the line with two plays, the play call and the kill call. Based on how the defense lines up against the play, based on where if anywhere the blitz is coming from, and if there's motion they can tell whether they're playing zone or man, that sets up the quarterback's progression. Brandon Marshall could find himself being the #1 target on any of the plays, based on how the defense lines up and what they show, not just 20% of them.

    Therefore the fact that Cortland Finnegan is able to study film and guess 80% of Brandon Marshall's routes before the play begins simply by looking at the formation, is an unqualified negative. It is not intended, not anymore than Peyton Manning intended for Zach Thomas to know before the play started when he was calling a screen. Cortland Finnegan was basically saying that he > Dan Henning. He beat Dan Henning. Henning was not a match for him.

    And I find that disturbing. As do many others.
     
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  38. SeanP

    SeanP Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I like the fact that Henning gives different looks, and occasionally will throw a play up, and make it look like something you've already seen before.

    My issue though comes in the fact that we've got good receivers all over the field. Hartline, Bess, and Marshall are all good enough to be a viable target on any down. Since we seem to only got 2-3 wide all the time, that's kind of an issue. If the other side has good coverage on your intended target, you're really shooting yourself in the foot.

    I don't think there is really any way you can sugar coat 1/2 to 1/3 of your receivers (minus the RB checkdown) having their routes telegraphed to the defense. Even Brandon Marshall isn't going to be able to pull that off all that often. I mean heck, if Finnagin knows what route Marshall is running, barring a total screw up on his part, he really doesn't even need help from the safety for double coverage.

    I'm not claiming to be an expert or that I know more than the next guy. It just seems to met that someone's sole purpose out there is to be a decoy on one down, to set up a potential big play down the road, it just doesn't make much sense. Why reduce your chance of scoring points now, for a chance to possibly (assuming everything works as it should) score later?
     
  39. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Well good coordinators adapt the gameplan, when it is predictable, especially when the defense adapts/knows to what the offense is trying to do....sounds like from the comments being made by multiple players, on different teams, on different weeks, that there isnt much adaptation going on by Coach Henning.....
     
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  40. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    This would never happen to say, a Norv Turner offense :001_rolleyes:
     

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