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Henning openly critical of Henne's play

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Dec 16, 2010.

  1. finserg

    finserg Well-Known Member

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    lmao
     
  2. Duss

    Duss Season Ticket Holder

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    he wouldnt say that to save his job would he ????

    ya he would say anything to save his job
     
  3. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    Why is this such a common post in this thread? Henning had to be coaxed out of retirement by Parcells in the first place to join this team. He's 68, was out of football for two years, and there's never been any sort of evidence that indicates that he wouldn't retire again without issue.
     
  4. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    That's a great point and I've noticed it too.

    Henning, because he thinks he's so smart, will call two stupid plays on 1st and 2nd down. Those plays will usually go for no gain or lose yards. Then he will put Henne back in on 3rd and long and when they don't get the 1st down he blames it on Henne.

    I really...really hope this man is gone next year.


    We don't know what we have in Henne (no matter what the armchair GM, talent scounts around here think), but after 34 years in the pro's, we see what Hennig is....and that is CRAP!
     
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  5. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    His pointing out that the atmosphere around here has gotten ridiculous had nothing to do with his opinion. The fact of the matter is a person can't come onto this board nowadays and share their opinion without some douche nozzles coming in and claiming that either they or their opinion is a "joke", or "comical", "sad", or that the person obviously doesn't bother to watch the games.

    I treat those people like ignorant buffoons because they ARE ignorant buffoons, but in the end my doing so in reply probably also detracts from the atmosphere around here, so I'm not trying to say that I'm above any of it. The whole atmosphere has grown ridiculous here.
     
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  6. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I think a good bit of it is just a product of the mediocre record and the frustration of an offense that has become ridiculously bad. Football is an emotional sport and football fans are emotional. It leads to a lot of heated debate. Hopefully, as we all tend to respond with a level of fire when fired upon, that can be recognized in the moment for what it is - just a moment of fire.

    Far worse than just a moment of heated emotion, however, is when one poster is persistently is negative toward another poster.

    Padre and I have our differences and argue pretty strongly at times - but we also have a thick enough skin to recognize when one makes a point of agreement to support that. Some posters cannot bring themselves to be honorable enough to disagree strongly (maybe even heatedly) with a poster in one thread and not hold that against them in another.

    That is far more poisonous than the occasional heated barb.
     
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  7. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    all im saying is give peace a chance/
     
  8. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I agree. And I can think of one right now that fits the bill you're talking about, constantly going off topic in order to take personal jabs rather than argue the debate at hand. The worst part is, as a Club member, he should know better.
     
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  9. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I would guess that Sparano will be given at most one more year to show that the team is headed in the right direction. If he brings in a rookie QB and hands him the reins it is very unlikely that Sparano will be here after that year. It is also very unlikely that there will be any veteran QBs available that will come in and be CP. It is far more likely that any veteran QB coming in will turn out like AJ Feeley or Culpepper. Sparano's best chance would be to stick with Henne, upgrade at RB, bring in a receiving TE and get an OC that can adapt to and work with those pieces. Hopefully, that and the continued growth of the defense show the team is moving in the right direction. He should also look to bring in another QB with a high pick to both potentially compete and build for the future. While its unlikely that said QB will be a Marino-like instant success (or even be as good as Henne is now), there's always a chance and it may help appease the impatient fan base. Reality is that a playoff team that was hot at the end or at least looking decent at the end would probably be enough to save his job. And even this year's team with Henne's, the defense's and the ST's uneven performances and a shell of a running game still has a chance to reach that (remote chance, but a chance none the less). They probably would have made the playoffs easily but for some poor luck even with all the aforementioned problems. So coming back next year with much of the same cast with a little development, a little upgrading, a better offensive system and hopefully a little less bad luck is far more likely to save his job than trying to start over with a new QB. Hopefully, Sparano is smart enough to figure that out.
     
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  10. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, disagreements are fine as long as they are backed up with facts or stats or what have you, what I have noticed is that is being skipped over in favor of just a ad populum argument.."people agree more with me so I am "right"!"

    The other thing is Da'Fins, we both have been around Dolphins boards for quite sometime and the two subjects that cause fans to lose their mind are:

    -Qb
    -Wr

    Dolfans have a serious psychosis when it comes to any discussion of those two positions.

    I'd toss in Offensive Coordinators as well, but that is every two yrs or so from "oh he's great" to "burn him! he suxxxx!!!"

    I would not even mind those lines of thought as long as they are kept in the Soapbox/Rant forum.
     
  11. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Exactly, Henne has what 70 starts overall between Michigan and Miami, the time at Michigan was supposed to have shortened his learning curve in the NFL and it just has not happened at some point this will become a sunk cost and they will be forced to move on from Henne.

    If after 70 starts in total and Henne is where he is, the question then becomes what possible good will 3 more starts do? or 5 more? or 10?

    To me, of "we" are thinking it out here in Dolfan land, when they "benched" Henne what..4 weeks ago? This has already occured to the Staff...as "we" should always be behind the Dolphins Staff when it comes to decision making, they get paid for evaluations, we are not paid, but when it becomes obvious to "us" it will have long since become obvious to "them".
     
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  12. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    IMO the starts in college are largely irrelevant. The game has become so different. The rule of thumb is that you need about 1000 pro pass attempts to adjust to the NFL game.
     
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  13. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

    I simply offered an opinion I felt was not being expressed. Offered, period. When i read some posts on this site anymore there is no offer, it is "I am right and you guys need to stop with anything else.." My disdain and displeasure is simply over the tone of how things are presented. I respect everyone on this board that offers up a reasonable post and I try to never force my point of view on another. Try. but some of us don't care about anything but being right and present them selves as such leaving no room for debate. I listen to everyone on hear and accept what they are saying and then decide if it is something I agree with. Sometimes I offer up the balance you talk you speak of, occasionally getting spirited. As for your opinion, well that is your opinion and you have your reasons for having it. I don't happen to agree with your assessment and you can try as much as you want but I do not find you analysis compelling enough for me to change my view. Has nothing to do with you personally. but continue to put upon my post what you do regularly with that "shame" crap and I do have an issue. My post was two part 1. to express my displeasure of both sides of this debate at how some are expressing their opinion and the tonality of said posts if others did not agree. 2. I offered my opinion on this subject and nothing more. Like I said before agree, don't agree but my opinion is no less valid than yours, unless you have some incredible insight/info we are not privy to. I find it interesting that of all the posters that have read my post you were the one to choose to go after it. Everyone else either accepted it or rejected it and moved on.

    You my friend are no more "in the know" than any one else here and your voice of reason I do not follow. I find nothing reasonable about your absolute opinion. There is a whole lot of gray area here we know nothing about and unless someone speaks to the media will never know. I am not doubting your methods and never have. I only disagree with your conclusion. This post clearly illustrates what I am speaking of with your tone toward me and the fact that I have called out some on both sides of this debate as to how they are posting their opinion. You clearly are distressed by the fact that by and large not many are buying what you are selling. This is more than a black and white issue with behind closed door issues that probably influence what is going on here. Henne's demeanor is different from this summer to now. His enthusiasm is all but non existent and he clearly is uncomfortable. As far as I know confidence has NEVER been an issue with him.

    Again Zod, take it for what it is worth. I applaud you for all your work you have done but still think you are off the mark with your conclusion. Unless you come up with more compelling data, I probably will continue to disagree with your voice of reason so continue to promote it but unless you stop the "my opinion is the only real opinion" then I'm not gonna listen. AND THAT WAS MY POINT IN THE FIRST POST.
     
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  14. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    Why do people assume that if you are critical of Henne, you're a Henning apologist - and vice versa?
     
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  15. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    Good post, but I'll say that I personally put less weight in collegiate starts than I do NFL starts. But, in that same vein - Henne has had what, 23+ starts now? That's almost two full years in the NFL.

    People are still saying he will improve, "it's the OC", "it's the o-line", "it's the running game" - it's always everything but the QB. Let's put how ridiculous that argument is aside for a second and assume that IS the case. Are the Dolphin fans that are saying this really expecting us to put together a team where everything is properly in place, so that Henne can succeed? Everything has to be perfect? We'll never get there - no team ever does. That's why this model won't work. If you're walking on eggshells to hope your QB succeeds, he's probably not your QB.


    It is my belief a truly elite QB will overcome some deficiencies of the team or system. :up:
     
  16. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    This is a really good point. To add a little bit to it, and I've said as much before, some people just come off as harsh over the internet. I've admitted that I have that problem. Sometimes I'll make a post and then someone will reply saying that I've offended them. Most of the time I'm really surprised about that. Sure, there are times where I purposely get sarcatic or call someone out for not at least taking the time to look up the facts before they start complaining about something, so I'm not innocent.

    However, if someone makes a good point in one thread and then turns around and makes a completely, provably false thread I will give them credit for the first and crap for the latter.
     
  17. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    All you have to do is take a look at what certian QB's have done when they change systems and/or get some experience under their belt. Steve Young pops to mind. The guy was HORRIBLE on a horrible offensive football team. Once he went to the 49ers he became a top 15 all time QB and that's AFTER he sat 4 more years behind Montana. Young played a total of 30 games in his first 6 years in the NFL. There are numerous other good to great QB's who took more than 2-3 seasons to develop.

    Henne still has 9 more games before he hits the 2 season mark. That's a lot of football.
     
  18. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yep, if we notice it, they will have noticed it.

    And consider with the Qb position people become emotionally invested in their success or failure, if one cares to look there are surely threads from 3 yrs ago about how John Beck just needed "X" and he would succeed.

    That is the way it goes with Qb's, no one bothers to do the same with NT's or Right Guards, it is just the nature of the position.


    SHOULD, but keep in mind this yr's offense is singularly inept, so much so that getting read on it is difficult, I would extend that same line of thought to Tyler Thigpen, how can you evaluate any Qb when:

    Team cannot run the ball, or when the Oline is starting a left tackle with a bum shoulder?

    I look at it like this:

    -I have goals for Henne, if he reaches them then I will remain neutral/critical on him moving forwards
    -I cannot toss dirt on him as the running game is just crap and a young Qb requires a good running attack to succeed, which is something no one mentions, people love to ***** about not taking Matt Ryan, they never mention M Turner's over 1k seasons running the ball.
    -also think Henne is both choking and regressing in the sense the more the throws the ball the less success the offense has, that is a terrible sign as if he has that talent, he should put up solid numbers with more opportunities.

    Think of it as handing the ball off to Ricky for 10 carries vs 22 carries, with more carries he should do better in terms of yds etc, with Henne it does not work like that for him.
     
  19. Disciple

    Disciple Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    24 starts now is one and a half seasons. And you say it like that's a lot for a new QB. That's next to nothing and you can only get so much from this short amount of time. Although you can start to develop opinions, you really don't know anything about what you really have.

    Secondly, how's it a ridiculous argument?
    Our QB has NO run game - fact
    Average at best O-line while declining steadily as the season goes - fact
    An O-cord that has no rhythm or feel for the game - opinion, but when X-players, coaches, reporters, and 95% of the fans who watch every game all are saying the same thing, it's as close as you can get to a fact

    I agree elite QBs will over come deficiencies, but how many elite QBs are in the game? 5? Lets look at the ones with similar deficiencies. Manning and Rodgers - there is a good chance neither make the playoffs, although I expect the Colts to win out now that they are getting healthy again.
     
  20. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Ah, so someone else sees the messiah complex as well.
     
  21. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Now I won't be able to sleep. I'll be going through the member list to figure out who it is now.
     
  22. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    You are correct, but that doesn't mean it's the norm or that it's even acceptable.

    For every Steve Young there are probably 1,000 Ryan Leafs. Frankly I don't think just because it is possible and has happened in the past that it should be acceptable. I expect more from my QB than taking 2-3 years to get to .500 in the turnover/scoring department. But that's just me. :beer:

    I have goals for Henne as well, they were to improve in certain areas (turnovers, TDs, completion percentage, staring down receivers, mobility, etc). He hasn't improved though - he's actually regressed, and I'm certainly considering the factors you mentioned about OC & running game, even though our rushing average has only dropped .3 yards/carry from last year. The difference between me and some others here is I am willing to accept when it is the QB, and not always looking to blame other factors.

    * We have the same OC we had last year.
    * We have the same RBs we had last year.
    * We added a top-5 WR in the league.
    * We improved our defense to a top-10 unit

    Result? Henne regresses from last year. Yeah the play-calling sucks, but it did last year too with less offensive talent and we did it with a "greener" QB.
     
  23. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Disagree Texp, imho Ronnie B has fallen off of the running back cliff, or more than likely has, his explosion has left him.

    Henne also has a clearly worse oline to operate behind than he had in 09.
     
  24. HULKFish

    HULKFish Artist and Scribe

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    Henne is not perfect, nor does anyone think he is... I think what a lot of us are trying to get across is that HENNING SUCKS!!! I would gladly take Norv Turner, Chan Gailey, or any of our past coordinators over him... Other than Mularkey. The other thing many are trying to say is that Henne is BY FAR the greatest prospect we've had since Marino, BY FAR!!! Either way, he gets till the end of the season, give him a chance!

    For Henning though... He has proved an inability to make adjustments in his gameplan. He has proved an inability to put his receivers in good position. He has proved an inability to be timely in his plays called. 3&15??? TIME FOR SOME PLAY-ACTION!!! Drive going well and the quarterback getting hot? Let me cool things down a bit and call a WildCat play... WHA???
     
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  25. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    You're right on the 1.5 seasons - I was still thinking collegiate for some reason :lol:

    But I disagree that 1.5 years isn't enough to evaluate a QB. It may not be enough time for said QB to fully mature & grow into a role, but it is enough time to figure out what you have. Fundamentals and how one plays in the NFL is certainly identifiable long before 24 games. There was a different thread where I went back and looked at the top QB's in the past 20 years - none had taken this long to "develop".

    I mean yeah, sure we could wait another year or two to "see for sure", but how long do you guys want to wait? Give every QB 4-5 years to figure it out? We don't have that kind of time in this NFL. If we were going to be QB apologists, Lemon, Feeley, and Beck deserve more time. At some point you need to cut the umbilical cord. 2 years of starting is more than enough time to evaluate, so at the end of this season we should at least be able to make a fair conclusion. If you disagree with that, I'm afraid you have accepted mediocrity. Holding out 3 years for a guy to maybe get to .500 with TD/turnover ratio? I'm not on board with that.

    Not having a run game or pro-bowl o-line is not unique to the Dolphins. The Patriots certainly aren't known for running the ball, neither are the Colts or Chargers. The Ravens are having a horrible year rushing the ball. The delta in differences between average yards per rush is very small between these teams; I can assure you that is not the reason they are far better than we are - it's the QB. What does this mean? They are serious contenders and we are not.

    Now, if they're rushing the ball worse than we are while having defenses ranked lower than ours yet they remain in contention, why do you think that is? :)
     
  26. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I totally see your point adam. By the same token, however, stats (and my observations, right or wrong) indicate that Henne is very very effective at making defenses pay for blitzing him. Now, I agree that setting protections seems to be an issue (and maybe he is calling for the extra blockers to stay in), but to me when he has more passing options and the blitzers come, Henne usually burns them.

    QB safety, however, still remains an issue as he absorbs hits on such plays.

    I have noted that Henne does fine dealing with the bressure of outside blites, calmly throwing behind the blitz (vacated area). However, he DOES panic when the bltizer comes in his face (sounds lovely, right). He panics and starts his 'horny charging rhino' scarambling impression.

    So, really, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

    He CAN be very effective against the blitz, so you are tempted NOT to max max protect him. Just let him hit one of the many receiving options, which he has proven he will do. BUT he will also absorb hits. AND when the blitz is up the middle, he could screw the pooch. Still... he burns the defense more than he screws the pooch when blitzed, imo... as long as he is NOT max protected and HAS receiving options.

    His decision making when blitzed actually seems better than when he has time to study the defense. lol. I have no clue what to make of that.
     
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  27. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    Agreed on both counts, but I don't you can use that as an excuse to completely write-off what Henne is doing. If accountability goes all around, you have to be fair the other direction.

    Pointing fingers at everything but the QB is no more fair than Henning calling out everyone but himself. Henning has nothing to do with where Henne looks after he snaps the ball or if he checks down. The running backs don't have much to do with Henne overthrowing Fasano in the endzone. The o-line has nothing to do with Henne's calling of audibles or struggling with fakes. Of course none of those excuses have much to do with Henne reading the field or even embracing the beauty of the Shotgun formation.

    On top of that, you have to take into account that some years your defense will suck, some years your OC won't work out, some years your running game is misfiring.... you still have to deal with those issues just like every other QB in the league, year-in, year-out.

    ..... unless, of course, you're expecting this FO to get every puzzle piece in place perfectly and the coaching staff to coach everyone perfectly. :wink2:
     
  28. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    SOme great points. I agree.

    I would add, though, that it gets dangerous when someone has SO much authority of voice (40 year coach) that he 'cannot' be questioned by a QB who knows 'nothing' by comparison. I think that sets up a tremendously unhealthy dynamic. Maybe that worked in the 1960's and 70's, but not now. The QB and coaches must have a partnership.

    The man who REALLY knows what is going on here and has the MOST valuable opinion on this entire issue is David Lee, the QB coach.

    I would give my weight in gold to hear his candid opinion of how much of this is Henne's issues versus Henning's issues.

    Ironically, Lee may be able to angle himself towards replacing Henning. Lee's end of the season interview with Sparano may be a very interesting one if Sparano asks him his opinion on Dan Henning and the offense.
     
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  29. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    It may be more a case of protecting his ego than protecting his job.
     
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  30. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I think the discouragement of our high expectations for this season not being met is part of it. I also feel like the people who break TOS get away with it unchecked for much much longer than previously. I'm not sure if there's a mod shortage at present, but it feels a bit like there aren;t enough guards in the prison.

    Yes, we are prisoners here! lol. Trapped by our insane love for the Dolphins.
     
  31. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Agreed, my point is comparing Henne to other young Qb's past and present, needs the context of "who" was running the ball for them and "how" well they were moving it on the ground.


    Without a running game a young qb has the full weight of the offense on their shoulders, very very few have succeeded in that situation, as for things like the shotgun or playaction, that goes to those 70 career starts in the NCAA and the NFL, Henne in no manner should be having those problems if he had been on an average learning curve for a Qb.

    The fact that he hasn't is a part of the discussion of how much longer they will feed him starts at Qb to see the same poor results, sooner or later, they will have to pull the plug on him.


    Eh, means nothing to the discussion of Chad Henne in 2010, 4 yrs from now, sure, it could matter, right now though, that is just philosophy.

    I expect the Front Office and Coach Sparano to be more effective and efficient at personnel evaluations, someone is simply terrible at "reading the signs" and they have been since the 09 Draft and Free Agency period when it comes to the offensive side of the ball.

    As in they were seeing things that just were not there, and never should have even been projected to be there.

    -oline
    -pat white and the wildcat's future
    -lack of a competent #2 tight end really since 08
    -henne's flaws from 09 not being addressed
    -ronnie brown's disappearance

    Whomever was behind those evaluations and the decision making process should be stripped of that Authority as they were massively wrong, as in completely wrong in their conclusions.
     
  32. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    It figures. He is right up under your nose and you likewise. The answer that you are searching for was within the statement that CK was responding. Here it is:

    It's something with which you (Slow Motion) participate as evidence by your consistent badgering including this thread. So you don't have to go far. Just go look for the guy you seem to "thank" for every post that he makes. That's your guy. The like minded individual with the same behavior.
     
  33. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I have to totally disagree with your reply to my post. The "norm" is a QB that takes a few years to develop. Over the entire history of he NFL there have been very few QB's who have started as rookies or had less than 2-3 years under their belts and immediately became good to elite QB's. It just doesn't happen too often.

    Here's another recent example of a team making sure they pick up the slack of and overcome the mistakes of their young QB, Big Ben... In his first 5 years as a starter he had one season where he threw more than 18 TD's. In that same span he had one season (his 3rd year) where he threw more INT's than TD's (actually he led the NFL in INT's) and another year (his 5th) where he threw one more TD than INT. If Henne throws 3 more TD's in his next 3 games w/ no INT's he'll have more TD's than INT's. Will that be the difference you need? The reason I ask is that if you only look at ONE stat you're not going to get a good picture of the player in question. His completion % and Y/A are actually very good. So is his ability to not fumble the ball. He makes few mistakes inside of the red zone.
     
  34. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    To be fair, I think things like the 1000 dropbacks are rules of thumb, not hard and fast thresholds. SOme QBs learn faster than others.

    It is possible that Henne WILL develop into a decent starter, in fact, but imo that is looking increasingly like it will take another two full seasons before he gets close to it.

    As a fanbase, his development is simply slower than what we want.

    Also, we are arguing over whether Henning is slowing and hindering that development. I would argue, however, that while Henning MAY be making it harder for Henne to 'swim' in some ways... it is FORCING Henne to work on his weaknesses. For Henne to succeed in Henning's system Henne cannot avoid the thongs he is bad at (taking eyes off defense, reacquiring it and making a quick decision, etc).

    In a way, Henning's tough lough is forcing Henne to sink or swim and while he is sinking right now, he HAS to acquire these skills at some point. Yes the season is going down the tubes as a result, but hey, welcome to QB development. lol.
     
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  35. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I didn't say he wouldn't be the starter because," I said so". I said he wouldn't be the starter because Sparano has no faith in him and he won't be willing to risk his job next year by having Henne as the QB on this team. The fact that Sparano was ready to bench Henne and go with Pennington showed quite clearly that he has lost faith in Henne's ability to lead this team. Also, the greater use of the Wildcat offense once the team is inside the other teams red zone clearly shows that Sparano and Henning are afraid of Henne turning the ball over in this territory. I admit. I have no idea who the Dolphins will bring in to replace Henne. I don't even know if the Dolphins know who will replace Henne at this time. My speculation is based entirely on what I have seen so far this season from Henne and the apparent frustation of Sparano regarding the play of Henne. Perhaps if Sparano was in his first year on the job. He might be willing to stick with Henne next year. But the fact that it will be his fourth year in Miami and the owner certainly has higher expectations for the Dolphins than them being only a mediocre team. I see no way that Sparano will stick with Henne if he hopes to be the coach of the Dolphins after next year. I have stated on other posts that I would love to see the Dolphins trade for Kevin Kolb. Perhaps you would be willing to place your job on the line that Henne will be a quality QB. I just don't think Sparano is willing to take another chance on Henne next year and lose his job, if Henne is no better than he has been this year.
     
  36. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    We dumped our interior Olinemen who were best at run blocking: Smiley (good at pulling), Grove (power one-on-one vs NTs), Thomas (road grader strength). We replace them with guys who aren;t as good at run blocking. Our running game suffers.
     
    adamprez2003 likes this.
  37. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    So did Ryan and Flacco in their 2nd seasons. They call it sophomore slump for a reason, champ.
     
    MarinePhinFan likes this.
  38. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    There seems to be a reason why it was done.

    Source: Raider try out Center Jake Grove

    http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Source-Raiders-try-out-center-Jake-Grove.html

    RAVENS: Ravens try out offensive linemen Donald Thomas and Quinn Ojinnaka

    http://www.carrollcountytimes.com/b...cle_216663dc-d0a4-11df-b551-001cc4c03286.html
     
  39. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Just food for thought:

    In 7 of Elway's first 9 years he threw either the same number of TD's and INT's (1 time) 1 more TD's than INT's (2) or more INT's than TD's (4 times)
     
  40. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    As much as you want to convince yourself that Henne is in his 2nd season, the fact remains that he came out of college the same year as Ryan and Flacco. They count the years on the calendar, champ.
     

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