1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Tom Brady - Greatest QB in NFL History?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Bumrush, Dec 28, 2010.

  1. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

    29,473
    34,332
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Even the former teams.. Please explain how outside of 2007, where Brady himself broke NFL records, his teams were superior..

    Brady and Moss / Welker dominated the league in 07...
     
  2. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    The Pats defense is currently ranked 13th in the league. You say you're a Pats fan? Methinks you're an alt ID stirring up crap. They went from somewhere around 30th to 13th. That defense is playing like the top 5 defenses that carried Brady to the Super Bowl.

    To be fair, Brady is playing better and contributing more now than he did those previous Super Bowl winning years. So, if they do win the Super Bowl this year (let me be on record as saying I don't think they will) he will be a larger part of the reason than in years past.
     
  3. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

    93
    35
    0
    Dec 28, 2010
    MarinePhinFan,

    Stats can NOT make up your top 10 of all time, because it doesn't take EVERYTHING into account. A good example would be Favre... He has the most TD,completions, attempts, BUT also has the Most INT and bone headed plays in NFL History, he truly is NOT top 10 of all time.. Longevity shouldn't make you on the list!
     
  4. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    Brady broke "records"? I see this a lot with certain people. Brady broke a "RECORD". ONE record. And he did it by 1 TD. LOL!

    If you don't see how the Pats of the early 2000's were some of the best teams ever (with a little help from cheating), nothing I say will help you.
     
  5. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

    29,473
    34,332
    113
    Nov 25, 2007

    Yeah lets piss on 50 TD's in a one season... After all they were running up the score, right?
     
    alen1 likes this.
  6. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    It's not all based upon stats. Besides, I'm not sure if I were to actually sit down and think about a list it would be the same as this one. However, the QB's on this list were more than their stats, although stats are a huge part of INDIVIDUAL greatness. Also, longevity is most definitley one of the factors to consider when discussing greatness.
     
  7. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

    93
    35
    0
    Dec 28, 2010

    WRONG! Total team defense per NFL.com the Pats D ranks 27th and 20th on scoring D, hardly a dominant D. Also DEAD LAST in 3rd down efficency. But they excel in takeaways as they lead the league. But 13th I have NO clue where you got that stat! Also he has also broken the record of most pass attempts without an INT.

    As for Longevity being a key factor we will disagree as I said before Favre is a joke and while a HOF is not even close to top 20 never mind top 10.
     
  8. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    I'm not pissing on anything. You wrote "records". I corrected you. I was also being preemptive by shooting down the "Crushed the records" phrase that people usually spew when talking about Brady's 2007 season. I brought up "by 1 TD" in order to stop that foolishness before it started.
     
  9. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    You're wrong. They are ranked 13th in points allowed per pro-football-reference.

    You crazy fake ID! lol
     
  10. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    I basically agree with this list (in no particular order) but I would keep Graham and drop Bradshaw. I've only watched highlights of Graham and Johnny U, but Graham was incredible. Johnny U and Manning are clones. Bradshaw was, IMO, a product of his surrounding talent. He was still good, but I wouldn't put him amongst the others on the list. I also agree that Favre is very over rated. He's in my second 10, but he's not on this list.
     
  11. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

    93
    35
    0
    Dec 28, 2010
    Wow, I have FORGOTTEN MORE ABOUT the Pats than you will ever know lol.. as for the D anyone silly enough believe they are top ANYTHING this year is delusional! They are young and getting better but hardly the 03-04 Pats Defense.
     
  12. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    If a person leaves Graham off of their list it has to be due to ignorance. Not in a bad way. Graham was such a dominate force it's hard to not have him as number 1. (Which is where I would probably rank him).

    And you're dead on about Bradshaw. He was tough and fun to watch, but a top 10? No way, no how.

    Also, laughing at Tarkenton shows a lack of football knowledge too.

    Calling Favre overrated may be accurate, but only because he may have been talked up even greater than he was. Favre, however, has to be considered when making an all time top 10 list. No matter your feelings of the guy and his last few years in the league, what he's accomplished and how he played was just spectacular.
     
  13. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010

    I never said that their "D" is top anything. I clearly, and on more than one occasion, stated that they are ranked 13th in the league. Did you miss that part?
     
  14. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I think one reason you can't put Brady up there as GOAT is because of the systems he has played in. Consider this, some may say Tom Brady made the players around him better, and that when guys like Deion Branch leave, they don't do much.

    Well consider this, Brady cannot run routes or catch passes for them. The scheming, routes, and play calls are making those guys look like stars. Brady can only get the ball to them behind an O Line that gives him enough time to order pizza. Their O line is much better than the Colts. See, Manning has to make throws before receivers get out of breaks and he has a quick passing game. Brady gets to stand tall all day and make a throw after a receiver gets open. His passing attack is much more relaxed. If you look at his body of work, he has played with guys who always get plenty YAC. Brady can't break tackles for Wes Welker. And for Dupree who somehow believe playing in a short pass Spread offense with emphasis on YAC makes a QB the GOAT then hell, Colt Brennan should be lighting up the NFL. He was throwing to Davone Bess a YAC monster.

    When looking at what Brady had to work with, his early teams were predicated on running the ball. Corey Dillon has near HOF numbers at over 11k yards. They also had a solid Defense. An earlier poster talked about the Colts D winning the rings well the Patriot D surely helped during Brady's early years. COnsider what many of those players became after they left, you can tell that the system makes guys look better than they actually are. That may be the case for Brady as well.

    One thing that really struck me was what HOF Safety/Corner Rod Woodson said when he saw that Tom Brady was ahead of John Elway and Dan Marino. He basically said that having played against all three, there is no way that a real fair list can have Brady near Marino in terms of ability. Marino had the record for fourth quarter comebacks, what some not interested in actual facts might call "clutch". Consider that if no one blocks, or catches the ball, a QB can't be clutch. It's not like basketball where a player can score the team's last 20 points by himself. If a Defense gives up a TD after the QB gets a go ahead score, the D isn't clutch then. It's also not backyard football. The coaches call the plays. Tom Brady is told what will work on the game winning drive, gets to stand up long behind his O Line, and wait for someone to get open.

    Ask Jay Alford or Jason Taylor what happens when you pressure Brady. 17-14 Super Bowl wins. 21-0 Regular Season Streak Busting. Tom Brady has benefited from a team sport with the best football mind in the NFL today as a Head Coach. I doubt any of you are actually Rod Woodson in disguise, or an NFL player for that matter but I'll take his word and the empirical evidence I have gained from watching NFL football.

    Deion Branch left NE and did nothing, and now has come back and looks like a star.

    [video=youtube;XzDCzvKw11Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzDCzvKw11Y[/video]

    If you watch that video, Branch comes open (Brady didn't do that), gets under thrown (Brady did that), and beats one guy three times for a TD (Brady didn't do that).

    The system is beneficial to everyone who played in it. It's the whole and not the sum of the parts in NE.

    Now as for the Moss era, Tom Brady benefited from a QB's dream scheme. He got their TE and Wes Welker to eat up coverage underneath and throw it over the top to Randy Moss who would literally catch anything that came to his hands. Brady didn't really have to throw it in the bread basket. Moss would go and get it.

    Here are examples of what I mean:

    [video=youtube;fGWjti8fWAs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGWjti8fWAs[/video]

    In this video, Randy Moss is wide open for the 50/23 play. Brady is going to get it to him. If he doesn't he isn't a veteran. One thing about Brady's 50 TD's is that almost half was to one guy. Which was another record. Considering Manning's 49 didn't have a WR breaking the record means he had a more difficult time than "throw it to Moss". And consider, in his prime, Randy Moss was being single covered in NE. That's because they knew leaving something open underneath could be a YAC TD as well. Any system that gave a QB Randy Moss in single coverage was a good system. I won't go into the benefit of Jabar Gaffney or Donte Stallworth.

    [video=youtube;R0zmA-M0v4c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0zmA-M0v4c&feature=related[/video]

    Video number two. Watch up to the first 1:05. Every single pass thrown, Randy has gotten himself open. I don't know what else you want as a QB. Then, the long PA TD Pass took balls to throw. But really, it says something about Randy Moss's ability and speed for Brady to throw that pass and Moss to run under it. That was really a safe throw. If Moss isn't fast enough, that ball is incomplete Out of Bounds. Randy tracked that ball and got under it. It was by no means an easy throw, but it was a safe one. These plays are indicative of the Randy Moss years in New England.

    Overall I hope I have provided enough information so certain people incapable of stringing together a factual argument or an argument over one sentence long will at least think about it.
     
    MarinePhinFan likes this.
  15. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

    93
    35
    0
    Dec 28, 2010
    1st I am NOT saying Brady is the GOAT (That would be Montana)I am stating he is in the top 10.
    As for why he is top 10, here are a few reasons:

    1. 2 time SB MVP
    2. Soon be 2 time League MVP
    3. has NEVER had a .500 season or lower EVER! as A starting QB.
    4. owns a few records, and in his prime now..
    5. More 4th qtr comebacks since 2001 (if you omit the 1 year he was out for blown knee)
    6. consistently under 10 INT in a year..
    7. Makes average receivers better (see Branch, Patton for examples)
    8. done most of his stats WITHOUT a Running game (Outside of Dillon in 03 and 04 no running game here in NE)
    9. Is consistent great even WITH 3 different OC in 10 years.
    10. doesn't make STUPID mistakes!! (This has gone up 10 fold after the Moss dumping!)
     
  16. finserg

    finserg Well-Known Member

    1,690
    252
    83
    Dec 16, 2007
    Linden,NJ
    I think he has to be .
     
  17. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

    20,459
    14,210
    113
    Apr 2, 2008
    Coral Springs, FL
    Tim Graham posted a pretty good stat about Brady a couple weeks ago, in that he has compiled more stats in garbage time (I believe the criteria for garbage time was at least a 17 point lead in the 4th quarter) than any QB in NFL History. That's telling, because anyone who's watched the Pats knows they don't just hand the ball off with a big lead.

    However, Brady is damn good. There's no denying it. You can say he's had a great coach and great offensive scheme his entire career, which he has, but those other QB's did as well. Montana being the poster-boy for a system guy.
     
    CaribPhin likes this.
  18. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

    93
    35
    0
    Dec 28, 2010
    slowmotion,

    a few things:

    1. All Good/great QB's have a good/great O line.

    2. That "safe" throw by MOST QB's would be a little different and have the potential be INT, anything LESS than a perfect throw is dangerous there a perfect one like you mentioned is either complete or incomplete by being OOB.

    3. WR JOB is to get open, if they dont get open then they are a BAD WR.

    I noticed you never look at Brady and how he for instance on Moss long passes freezes the FS by looking away from him then suddenly turning and making the throw

    OR

    sHOW THAT bRADY STEPS UP I N THE POCKET JUST FEELING THE PRESSURE AND BUYS TIME FOR HIS wr GET OPEN.


    What I am saying is this Brady's smarts is def one of the reasons he is 1 of the best ever at QB.
     
  19. firedan

    firedan Well-Known Member

    2,000
    826
    113
    Oct 31, 2008
    palm beach county fl
    Hate to give Brady props here but the numbers don't lie.That guy is pretty good.
     
  20. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010

    1. Yeah, 145 yards passing is MVP quality!! lol
    2. If he gets his 2nd that will be an accomplishment
    3. Team stats
    4. Only REAL record in 50 TD's. In his prime? lol
    5. "If"? Does he or doesn't he?
    6. 2 out of his 9 full season has he thrown fewer than 10 INT's...LMFAO!!!
    7. System
    8. Has ALWAYS had a good to great running game. ALWAYS!
    9. No. Great in 2007. Great this season. Average to good the other 7 seasons.
    10. He does limit his mistakes. So did Trent Dilfer. ;)
     
  21. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    Great points...
     
  22. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010


    No...no...no!!! Stats mean NOTHING! It's the "it" factor and "clutch" factor that tells all!

    Besides, other than in 2007 and this season, Brady hasn't had great numbers.
     
  23. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    I'd take Brady over Manning by a country mile. It's hard to compare different QBs through different eras. Even Marino vs. Manning/Brady is hard, since back then, DBs could basically sodomize the WRs down the field. So you can't compare stats directly, but how each one dominated in that era. New England's defensive stats: One thing you will learn about Marinephinphan is he likes to use Points allowed, as the end all be all for defensive stats. Even though the rest of the world uses total defense (yards allowed). But that's neither here nor there. New England has the 27th ranked defense. That is a fact.
     
  24. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

    93
    35
    0
    Dec 28, 2010

    Seems your OPINION are based poorly on facts... I knwo you have a hate on for TB but god take the hate glasses off will you!
     
  25. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010

    LMMFAO!!!

    Dude, you are reading the stats incorrectly!

    The patriots defense has given up 306 points this season. Now, go back to NFL.com and see if you can figure it out. They are 13th in the league. HAHAHAHAH!!

    Also, pro-football-reference.com must not be from the planet Earth. They too use points instead of yards when determing defense and offense.

    If we use yards the Patriot offense is ranked 11th in the league. Do you think that there are 10 other offenses better than the Pats? However, if you use points they are 1st.
     
  26. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Not close to being a sufficient rebuttal.

    1. This has nothing to do with the QB but Brady has a measurably better O-Line than Manning, Rivers, Vick, Roethlisberger, or Rodgers. It makes things much easier.

    2. Not really. I personally believe that the safe throw for any other QB, especially Chad Henne, would end up Out of Bounds or not thrown. It took balls to throw it but the throw itself was safe. It was out in front of everybody and would have landed Out of Bounds if Moss didn't catch it. Yes, anything less than a perfect throw is dangerous but only a few QB's like Chad Pennington couldn't give it a safe trajectory. Just throw it hard and high, caught, good. Missed, Out of Bounds.

    3. Yes, the WR's job is to get open. This really doesn't even make a point. What am I to glean from this? First of all, Randy Moss got open, helping Brady who was already sitting behind a great Line. That fact actually takes away from the QB. Throwing a WR open is what Peyton Manning has to do right now. He also has to throw to them while they aren't open and make them get open. Blair White isn't exactly Wes Welker or Randy Moss. Reggie Wayne is Reggie Wayne. But when you get into how open Deion Branch is, there's clearly more to it than a WR getting open. Seattle is one of my favorite teams. I watched him suck weekly. Now, with the schemes run, guys like Welker and Woodhead stretching the Defense, and The Law Firm bashing through guys, he's again getting free.

    As for looking off a safety, Randy Moss got single covered. They put one man on Randy Moss. There wasn't always a safety to look off. Only teams with a great Nickel/Slot corner and coverage LB for the TE could double Randy Moss. Then with Dante Stallworth streaking down field, that rolled coverage away from Randy. And Gaffney isn't exactly a slouch himself.

    As for the OR, so does Ben Roethlisberger and any veteran QB. Pocket Presence isn't exactly the end all measurement of QB greatness. On the rare occasion a Defender gets through the Patriots O-Line, he does a great job of side stepping the Defender. And? Surely you won't make the case that he should now be the GOAT because of those points, none of which bolster Brady's reputation.

    And as for intelligence, I'd venture to say Manning's football I.Q. is higher. He is the Colts's Offensive Co-ordinator. Manning doesn't really have a system. He has players that he calls plays for so they are in the right position to succeed. Brady is a smart QB. A winner (in a team sport). One of the great ones, etc., etc. But so were Elway, Marino, Montana, Tarkenton, Unitas, and Starr. You haven't said anything to put him up there as number one.
     
    MarinePhinFan likes this.
  27. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    I don't know what to say.

    I think I'll just go with: have fun, bro! I'm out!

    lol
     
  28. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I see your un-researched opinion and raise you one of equal value:

    Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Proin vel velit vitae mauris mollis viverra vitae fermentum augue. Donec laoreet leo ac lorem bibendum mollis.
     
    MarinePhinFan likes this.
  29. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    Sorry, I can't wait to see if you'll fugure this out...

    So, the Patriots defense is ranked 20th you say? Well, according to you the Steelers are ranked 32nd in defense! HAHAHAHAH!!
     
  30. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

    9,313
    4,169
    0
    Nov 11, 2008
    Why is there a Tom Brady *** kissing thread in the Dolphins main? :headwall:
     
    MarinePhinFan, CaribPhin and Paul 13 like this.
  31. Omaha

    Omaha Season Ticket Holder

    367
    158
    0
    Dec 2, 2007
    Relax
    Points are one aspect looked at, so that is valid but to negate the other is silly, IMO.
    and if you are going to say statements like that with such conviction I hope you are sure that the DEFENSE gave up those point and not special teams or the offense on pick sixes. If you look at Miami's stats on points allowed it is total points so when NE beat us up last time alot of those points were not on defense but total team. Not sure if these is the case for NE or not, since they haven't turned it over very much.
     
  32. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

    93
    35
    0
    Dec 28, 2010
    Slowmotion,

    You lost all cred when you went and said Manning didn't have a system and that he CALLS all his plays. I am a reg over at the Colts Forum and even they will tell you he has a few plays he is given and he chooses which one to run, but to say he doesn't have a system i silly. All QB's have a system.

    I also mentioned the WR job get open because YOU pointed out the fact that they got open as a reason for Brady's success. (I too thought your post here was silly but responded to it)

    As for O-lines go, Manning until THIS year usually had time to pass, and now with a Poorly performing O line he is having his WORST season ever. Another major reason is his WR are NOT getting open or (OMG) DROPPING THE DANG BALL!!

    If you knew ANYTHING about Brady it is the fact that he was always known for throwing to the open man, and before Moss was here he usually had between 8-10 players catch a ball in a game. Hard defend that many players isn't it? And now Moss is gone he si back to his old ways. and so are the Pats coincidence? hmm you will say yes I am sure and then put up anothe rLatin quote trying make yourself sound smart.
     
  33. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

    85,620
    51,681
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    seriously... lets all hold hands and root for the Pats.
     
    Killerphins and CaribPhin like this.
  34. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    Please...look at his OWN link. He's reading the stats wrong.
     
  35. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    You're a reg at a fan forum. Now you're an expert. Sup?

    I said that they got open to show that the system can get turds looking like gold. Branch is not a great receiver but the SYSTEM gets him open. You thought my post was sill because you couldn't get your mind off of Brady's cheeks (the other ones) to think about what I said.

    Manning was always a quick passer. Manning doesn't get sacked because they never have enough time to get to him. Ball snapped, quick throw. Manning's line has never been as good as Brady's. They can't run block. They are good at Pass Pro but not eight second Patriot good.

    Your last paragraph is almost as much of an indictment on Brady as my posts were. "Hard to defend that many players isn't it?" Game. Set. Match. You just said that the scheme gets guys open and spreads the defense thin allowing Brady to throw to the open man in the confusion of having all those guys to defend. Are you even trying now?
     
    MarinePhinFan likes this.
  36. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

    2,354
    1,402
    113
    Jan 4, 2008
    I guess you can't help it in a "TEAM SPORT"
     
  37. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

    93
    35
    0
    Dec 28, 2010
    God, so the other 31 teams and all previous teams didn't scheme get their WR open? It is a stupid premise.

    As for O line blocking, do you know WHOSE job it is to call out who to block and who is coming where?? That's right the QB so by your OWN admission Brady MUST be doing something amazing as his line and even little woodhead always able pick up the right d players including blitzes...

    Manning a quick passer, ok have you watched ANY Colts game before this year? I am guessing not as his staple was the deep routes to Wayne and Clark which take TIME to develop.


    This all said Manning is by far 1 of the greatest ever, he and Manning both read Defenses better than ANYONE I have ever seen. Where they differ is Brady will take the smart safe play (even if that means throwing it away) while manning will trust his cannon arm get it in there.. I personally will take the guy playing it safe.
     
  38. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Wow. I'm going to be laughing at your comment for at least the next minute. By your logic, Matt Light is the best Offensive Lineman in NFL History. You cannot claim someone is the best ever simply on the back of his team being great. Again, Terry Bradshaw isn't near the top QB ever but is tied with Montana for the most rings.
     
    MarinePhinFan likes this.
  39. Finsanity

    Finsanity New Member

    718
    363
    0
    Apr 21, 2009
    City of Angels
    He is a top 5. I think he's top 3.

    1. Montana
    2. Brady
    3. John Elway
    4. Unitas
    5. Marino
     
  40. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    Sure you can. Look at INDIVIDUAL stats. And don't cherry pick those INDIVIDUAL stats.
     

Share This Page