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Tom Brady - Greatest QB in NFL History?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Bumrush, Dec 28, 2010.

  1. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    But individual stats ALSO effected by the team, for instance does the stats take into account how many drop TD passes there were. (Good example be that Buffalo v Pit game this year where Fitzpatrick put it right in his hands and the guy dropped it) Or how many deflections off WR chest were INT.

    OR

    How many TD were deflections off a DB hands into a waiting WR 9See Denver game last year vs Cincy)

    Individual stats are ALSO made by the TEAM effort... if the qb has a bad O line his stats suffer (see Manning this year) if he has a bad WR they suffer...

    You can't take just the good with the bad.. this is a TEAM game.
     
  2. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Why do you think Brady's post season numbers have gotten worse over time?
     
  3. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I needed a chuckle.

    You're a stupid premise (lmao. j/k). The point is that because the receivers in NE are so bad anywhere else, the scheme has to be good for such bad Receivers to be that open. Which one has to consider as a major benefit to the QB. Missing the point then arguing against it doesn't look too good.

    Manning has forever been a quick passer.

    [video=youtube;_oO3yFVR3IU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oO3yFVR3IU[/video]

    All of a QB's throws don't go to one guy. Harrison was a deep threat. You throw to those guys on PA Passing which freezes defenders. But again, he doesn't throw to one guy. Wayne isn't even a burner WR. He works intermediate routes most of the time. Watch the video. Anthony Gonzalez and Brandon Stokely weren't deep threats. Nor is Dallas Clark. Those guys ate up a lot of his completions. Count how long after the PA at around 0:47 he holds the ball. All of 2 seconds.

    His deep throws are throw to a spot which means he doesn't need time in the pocket. Then he throws guys open which means he doesn't need time in the pocket. The longest you see Manning hold the ball is on a designed rollout. Really, count the pocket time with the dropback it's rarely over 3.5 seconds. Throwing to where a guy is going to be eliminates the need to wait for him in the pocket.

    This all said, Manning is one of the greatest ever. Both do read defenses better than anyone in the league right now. Where they differ is that Manning calls the play more than Brady does, he has less time in the pocket, and he throws to a receiver before they're open while Brady sits there and chills out, maybe sidestepping one or two guys on occasion.
     
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  4. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    Could it be because they were nearly flawless when he started?? I am not to sure which numbers you are talking about, but when you win 3 SB in 4 years as an NFL starter hard do anything but go down.

    As for 07 and 09 I have 1 very good reason MOSS! He is a great WR but IMO he makes QB's look to him and throw to him way to much even when he wasn't open. IMO Moss makes QB's lazy!
     
  5. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    That WASN'T the Point ALL WR get open, and you have a small window get it to them, 99.9% qb'S USUALLY MISS THE OPEN MAN.. (Who hasn't seen replays of INT where YOU see the RB/TE etc open 5-8 yds down field but the QB throws the dumb pass to a guy double covered.. we ALL see it happen Brady just the best at finding the open guy and getting it in that small window.

    and FYI Stokley was their 3rd down specialist and Wayne IS their deep threat as is stone hands Garcon.
     
  6. Roman529

    Roman529 Senior Member

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    NO, but Brady is in the Top Ten of most greatest QB of all-time lists.
     
  7. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    No, Tom Brady is not the greatest QB in NFL history. It’s not even close. Why do people insist on naming contemporary players as the greatest ever? It was nauseating when people were pimping Peyton Manning as the GOAT, and it’s annoying when people try to do the same with Tom Brady.

    The greatest QB of all time is probably Bart Starr.
     
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  8. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    They did it with Griese and Bradshaw and Aikman etc etc etc....

    Certain "fans" will just go along with whomever the media's darling is. That's why I didn't put Manning on my top 10 list. When he retires, and we get to look at his entire career, I'll adjust.

    Right now, however, there are at LEAST 20 other QB's I would put ahead of Brady.
     
  9. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    I agree with GOAT stuff, hard determine from one generation to the next, IMO Brady is the best of this Generation, but I have no real problems with people saying Manning is... (Sort of simular to the Marinio/Montana debate back in the day)
     
  10. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    First of all, you didn't address the video evidence (something people feel it will kill them to provide).

    You're still not understanding what I'm saying. Something had to change for Deion Branch to go from scrub, back to always open. Hint: It's not the QB 8/10 times. It's the system. We all see that Brady gets to stand up and wait for guys to get open. Coverage lasts usually for 4 to 5 seconds. After that, Receivers usually win. There's a reason why Manning lobs a lot while Brady gets to throw bullets. The extra height replaces him standing in the pocket. Brady is hitting guys who get open while standing in the pocket so he gets to just rocket that in there. Manning usually throws bullets in the red zone.

    As for "deep threat", Reggie Wayne averages 12.6 YPR while Garcon averages 11.8. DeSean Jackson averages 22.8 YPR, Vincent Jackson 17.7, and Mike Wallace 20.2. They must be the worst deep threats ever. Even Randy Moss who runs a lot of crossing routes and slants has 13.9 YPR. TO is averaging 13.7 and I wouldn't call him a deep threat. Just saying something doesn't make it so.
     
  11. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    The way you counter the generation gap is to look at how each player dominated their peers in that same generation. A 70 QBR was a good rating in the 1960's. Today, not so much.

    Manning, from his MVP's, to his All-Pro's to his numbers, has dominated Brady. Yes, Brady has played on the better TEAMS, but he is not the QB Manning is. And again, 14 out of 16 HoF QB's agree.
     
  12. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Dude! You may have all the evidence, but Brady has "it". ;)

    However, people who believe in "it" and "clutch" have yet to explain to me how to measure such things.
     
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  13. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    Slowmotion/marinephine,

    1st lol I never heard anyone call Brady's passes bullets before. As for Branch, Take into effect he had a lot lesser QB throwing him the ball, He was also with a team on the decline.

    Reggie and Garcon get open deep a lot they just dont get many YAC.

    MarinePhin that could be used, but Brady faces tougher defenses in the AFC East while Manning feasted on the usually weak AFC South. So stats rarely show that, one stat I would like see is who does the best in crunch time IE playoffs with the game on the line, Brady in 07 drove the field and got the go ahead TD with less than 2 min go in the SB. hat shows something..
     
  14. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Overall, Brady and Manning's numbers in the post season are the same even though Manning's teams have been much worse.
     
  15. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I've seen it measured in a few ways:

    1. Rings: (Insert Trent Dilfer/Brad Johnson). Tarkenton was a trendsetter. But he never won. Compare him to Bradshaw.

    2. Comeback wins: Marino lead with 36. Elway was second with 34. I think Favre has at least 42 now. Would anyone put him over them?

    3. Stats: This would make the Top 5, Favre, Marino, Manning, Elway, Moon. Followed by Fran Tarkenton, Vinny Testaverde, Drew Bledsoe, Dan Fouts, and Joe Montana.

    You can't quantify "it". You have to look at situation, surrounding talent, scheme, era, and a host of other tangible and intangible assets. It's just not as simple as people make it seem.
     
  16. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    • Brady enters 2010 with a record of 111-34 (.765) in regular-season and playoff games. It is the best record of any NFL quarterback in the Super Bowl Era (since 1966) with at least 100 starts.
    • Brady enters 2010 with a 14-4 (.778) playoff record, the second best in NFL history behind Bart Starr (9-1, .900). His 14 total playoff wins are tied for the second most in NFL history behind Joe Montana (16).
    • Entering 2010, Brady’s touchdown-to-interception ratio (2.27) is the best in NFL history among all players with 2,000 or more passing attempts. Steve Young ranks second in NFL history with a 2.17 touchdown-to-interception ratio.
    • In 2007, Brady was named the NFL’s Most Valuable Player, setting all-time NFL records for most touchdown passes in a season (50), highest touchdown-interception differential (+42), most games with three or more touchdown passes (12), most touchdown passes in a month (20 in October 2007), and highest completion percentage in a game (92.9 percent on Jan. 12, 2008). Brady’s 117.2 passer rating in 2007 was the second highest of all-time, while his 4,806 passing yards were the third highest single-season total in league history.
    • In addition to the NFL records Brady set in 2007, he also set Patriots franchise records for highest completion percentage in a season (68.9 percent), most passing yards in a season (4,806), highest passer rating in a season (117.2), highest passer rating in a game (158.3 on Oct. 21, 2007), lowest interception percentage in a season (1.4 percent) and most touchdown passes in a game (6 on Oct. 21, 2007).
    • In 2007, Brady contributed to the Patriots’ establishment of several NFL single-season team records, including most points scored in a season (589), largest point differential in a season (+315) and most touchdowns in a season (75). The Patriots became the first team in NFL history to complete a 16-0 regular season and tied the league’s single-season mark with 18 overall victories.
    • Brady and receiver Randy Moss set an NFL single-season record in 2007 for most touchdown passes between a passer and a receiver (23), with Moss’ 23 touchdown catches also setting a league record.
    • Brady won 76 of his first 100 regular-season starts, tying Roger Staubach’s mark for most victories by a quarterback in his first 100 starts during the Super Bowl Era (since 1966).
    • Brady is the only quarterback in NFL history to start and win three Super Bowls before his 28th birthday, having quarterbacked the Patriots to victories in Super Bowl XXXVI when he was 24 years old, Super Bowl XXXVIII (26) and Super Bowl XXXIX (27).
    • Brady is the fourth quarterback in NFL history to lead his team to three or more Super Bowl wins, joining Terry Bradshaw (4), Joe Montana (4) and Troy Aikman (3).
    • Brady owns two Pete Rozelle Awards as Super Bowl MVP (XXXVI and XXXVIII). He is just the fourth player in Super Bowl history to earn multiple MVP awards, joining Joe Montana (3), Terry Bradshaw (2)and Bart Starr (2), all three of whom are enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
    • From 2001-08, Brady started 128 consecutive regular-season and playoff games for the Patriots, good for the third longest all-time streak for a quarterback, trailing current streaks by Brett Favre (309) and Peyton Manning (210).
    • Brady has orchestrated 29 game-winning drives to break a tie or take the lead in the fourth quarter or overtime. Six of his game-winning efforts have come in the postseason, where he has played in 18 games.
    • Brady led a game-winning drive to break a tie or take the lead in the fourth quarter of each of the Patriots’ three Super Bowl victories, becoming the only quarterback in NFL history to lead three such game-winning drives in the Super Bowl.
    • Brady tied an NFL record in 2005 by distributing his 26 touchdown passes to 12 different players. The only other NFL player to accomplish the feat was Brad Johnson in 2003.
    • Brady is tied with Drew Brees (Super Bowl XLIV) for the Super Bowl record for pass completions in a game, connecting on 32 passes in Super Bowl XXXVIII.
    • Brady won his first 10 playoff games, setting an NFL record for the most consecutive playoff wins.
    • Brady has been voted an offensive co-captain by his teammates for the last 8 seasons (2002-2009).
    • Brady completed a streak of throwing for at least one touchdown in 15 straight games, including playoffs (12/14/03 — 11/22/04), recording the longest such streak in Patriots history.
    • Brady led the NFL with 28 touchdown passes in 2002 and became the first Patriot to lead the league in touchdown passes since Steve Grogan shared the lead with Cleveland’s Brian Sipe (28) in 1979.
    • Brady threw at least two touchdown passes in each of the first five games of the 2002 season, the first Patriot to accomplish that feat and the first Patriot to throw for at least two touchdowns in five straight games in a single season since Butch Songin (10/23/60—11/18/60).
    • Brady (24 years, 184 days old) was voted MVP of Super Bowl XXXVI and was the third-youngest player to earn the honor (Marcus Allen, 23 years and 301 days at Super Bowl XVIII and Lynn Swann, 23 years, 316 days at Super Bowl X).
    • Brady was voted to the 2001 Pro Bowl and became just the second Patriots quarterback to receive the honor (Drew Bledsoe, 1994, 1996 and 1997). He also became just the fifth quarterback since 1970 to be voted to the Pro Bowl in his first year as a starter, joining Dan Marino (1983), Brett Favre (1992), Kurt Warner (1999) and Daunte Culpepper (2000).
    • Brady threw for 53 yards on the Patriots’ game-winning drive in Super Bowl XXXVI, completing five of his eight passes. Two of his pass attempts were spiked to kill the game clock. With just 1:21 remaining, he moved the Patriots into field goal position without the benefit of timeouts.
    • Brady completed over 70 percent of his passes in four consecutive games during the 2001 season and joined an exclusive club of quarterbacks who accomplished the feat. He joined Joe Montana (8 games, 1989), Troy Aikman (4, 1995), Steve Young (4, 1993) and Sammy Baugh (4, 1945).
    • Brady completed the first 162 passes of his career without an interception. It was the longest streak to start a career in NFL history and ranks third for most attempts without an interception in Patriots franchise history.
    http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=playerbio&bio=566

    Not bad and a lot of amazing things in their I did not know.. seems Brady has a nack for not throwing INT.
     
  17. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    it's very difficult to say who the best person is in a team sport. However, I think when you look at ALL individual stats, accomplishments, and awards you can get pretty close. There will always be the "bias" factor and opinion. However, when all is said and done I think most people can, when talking aboout QB's, pretty much agree upon a top 20 list. Maybe not in any particular order though. There will most likely be a few QB's on one's list and not another's, but I think they would be pretty close as long as each person drops their bias.
     
  18. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I've never heard anyone call Branch a good receiver. Look at Larry Fitzgerald and Kenny Britt's numbers this year. Especially Larry. Compare QB play. Fitz still did good. Better than Branch ever imagined.

    Deep threats don't require YAC. That's why they're called deep threats. They catch passes deep for TD's or get tackled.

    I rarely use stats. "crunch time" is great for the NBA. One guy can drive the lane by himself and score or put up a shot. In the NFL, in crunch time, a WR has to catch. A lineman has to block, a Defense has to...D. In 07, Brady drove the field with great talent around him. Then in crunch time in the Super Bowl, he couldn't get it done. My preceeding sentence was garbage. Tom Brady was playing on a team. The O-Line got him sacked, he missed Moss, the play calls weren't good enough, he was playing against upwards of 11 guys (Alford was a sub for sure) who get payed to win, and other guys didn't get open.
     
  19. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    You could make the same argument about joe montana,product of great system and I would say brady has more talent than joe did but nobody bashes joe.
    Joe also had better defences than brady did by far but they were always overlooked because of the offence.
    Superbowl year defence rankings Ypg ppg
    1981 2nd 2nd
    1984 10th 1st
    1988 3rd 8th
    1989 4th 2nd
    Looking at these numbers how can you not knock montana.Joes teams were much more talented than bradys but you all just seem like a bunch of haters toward brady because he is kicking our *** year after year.I hate the ****er to but i am man enough to give the devil his due.
     
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  20. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    Funny thing is when the game was on the line Brady DID get the TD to take the lead, sadly the Pats D couldn't hold for one more drive. 9And I am not blaming them they played well and held the Giants O in check all game that drive was a thing you see in hollywood movies lol)
     
  21. Buckeyetroop

    Buckeyetroop Active Member

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    Just wow. To not put Brady in the top 20, as someone keeps suggesting, shows football ignorance plain and simple. The same individual keeps raving about Henne...............Interesting and comical. But i'm sure the response will be LMAO, LOL, HAHAHAHAHAH, or your wrong, i'm right etc.
     
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  22. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Huh? Montana was absolutely the product of a system. Roger Craig, Jerry Rice, Dwight Clark, a great D lead by Lott. I do take points off for that. I don't consider him the GOAT. He also benefited from a top 5 Coach in Bill Walsh. I'm sorry if you find it necessary to fellate Tom Brady on the main board of a Dolphin forum or that I would consider him not the GOAT. I didn't know your loyalties lied in New England.

    "You all just seem like a bunch of haters toward brady". What the **** are you even talking about. I provide pure facts in my arguments. I also happen to be a Dolphin fan. You're not even making sense. But sure, overlook where I called him one of the greats. It just suits your dislike of people intelligent enough to post a damned fact based argument that disagrees with your perceived superior opinion.
     
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  23. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    Slowmotion,

    I dont think he meant you! I dont even think you have put your top 10 list out yet... (never mind top 20)
     
  24. Omaha

    Omaha Season Ticket Holder

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    why?
    I can only assume it is due to the greatness of the teams he was on. He was clearly the leader of great teams. but his "stats" are pretty mediocre.
    That being said it was a time was passing was not nearly as advanced as it is now, and I don't know how his "stats" measured up to his peers at the time.
    Now I wouldn't argue top 10 at all, but I am not sure of being number one. He was a great QB, but the greatest? I always perceived Johnny Unitas as better during that era. (is starr the brady to unitas's manning?)
     
  25. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    So your definition of clutch has shifted from winning, to getting the go ahead score. See what I'm talking about yet? A QB is only as clutch as his team. The player had to be open to catch the pass. The other plays, Brady relied on another player to do their job. Brady did his job. As did the rest of the offensive players. And yes 17 points is a good showing. But again, when we try to put so much on the QB, you get idiots claiming Brady lost that game on the last drive. Again, it's a team game.
     
  26. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Yep,I was not not directing toward him.
     
  27. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    IT IS 100% A TEAM GAME. An all I was showing is he did lead them ona drive to put them in position to win the game.. (That last drive by the Giants still gives me nightmares, Eli escaping 4 defenders, the helmet catch, the dropped INT by Samual... ~~sigh~~)

    But all QB's are part of a team, and if Young was never traded from the Bucs he would not be a HOFer right now or considered one of the greats.. The Bucs were beyond awful then!
     
  28. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I own a certain person around these parts. :)
     
  29. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Usually when a guy quotes you, he's referring to you.
     
  30. Omaha

    Omaha Season Ticket Holder

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    of note the nfl has an all decade team and for 2000 to 2009 the first team QB was Brady and the second team QB was Manning, interestingly enough in 1980 to 1989 the first team was Montana and Marino was second team.
     
  31. Buckeyetroop

    Buckeyetroop Active Member

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    LMAO..............................I must bite my tongue. And who said I was referring to you anyway? Oh, I hit the nail on the head.
     
  32. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Hell, I don't have to make the argument. Bill Walsh already did.

    And I'll take his advice, opinion, or teachings over yours every...single....time.

    As to the Pats defensive rankings during their Super Bowl Winning years: 5th, 1st, and 2nd. How is that worse than the 49er's?

    BTW, Brady isn't "kicking our ***". His record against us is 9-6. The Pats have swept the Dolphins once since Brady's been playing, in that year they beat everyone else too.
     
  33. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    The media favors rings. They are typically wrong. As they were about many QB's who played on great teams. Bradshaw, Aikman, Griese etc etc....
     
  34. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    I hit you by mistake with the distraction of 3 kids running around.But it is directed at the people who put montanna on the list but not brady simply because you can have the exact same argument about joe.
     
  35. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    No, what's sad is that an offense that averaged 38 PPG could only muster 14. What's funny is that the Pat's defense gave up 17 points in the Super Bowl. Guess what the Pat's defense averaged for that same year?

    Yep, 17 PPG. Seems to me that the defense held up it's end of the bargain.

    On second thought...that's not sad...it's funny as hell! That "great" offense CHOKED!! lol
     
  36. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    Didn't Bill Walsh state Brady was BETTER??? I could have sworn there was an uproar over that awhile back.. But I could be wrong..
     
  37. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    It's the guy who sells the most tickets and is on the team with the most rings. Every decade the league crowns a "dynasty". The QB of that team is usually labelled as all Decade. The 90's made it easier because Elway was probably the best there. At no other position does this happen. Barry Sanders over Thomas even though Thomas got to the big game more. There it's about skill. Mitigating the 70's was the actual fact that Bradshaw wasn't the best while Staubach was a great QB with two rings. If you look before the 80's and the Jordan Revo of game changing players, the NFL was pretty good with it. Then once more emphasis was put on offense and the D got limited, the QB with the win got big.
     
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  38. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    Your blind hatred showing through...
     
  39. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I never read anything about Walsh saying Brady was better.
     
  40. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    How so?

    The Pats offense scored 24 points less in the Super Bowl than what they averaged throughout the season. The defense gave up exactly what they averaged.

    You blamed the loss on the defense and I pointed out the error in your ways. How is that "hate"?
     

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