If you don't play how do you become great? You see, that's the biggest problem in this argument. Not many people think you should include ALL things about greatness. For example, some people don't think starting in your rookie season, or longevity has anything to do with greatness.
Please try and keep up. There is more to greatness than JUST QBR, TD% and INT%. I've always argued that. That is my ENTIRE argument against the "angry Pats fan" who came up with that measuring stick.
I'm pages behind because I don't camp out on this forum.... workin on catching up! I agree there is more than just stats - that's my point. What I don't understand is I'm showing you conflict after conflict with your own reasoning that you aren't addressing.
To be fair, you can't take credit away from Brady and give it to AV if there is this whole "you can't count Superbowls because they're a team accomplishment" ethos in the conversation. That is contradictory right off the bat. Of course it's a team accomplishment, but single players can be huge reasons you get there. If Brady pulled a Henne and threw a pick-6 in the 4th quarter, you could probably make a case that he didn't have as much responsibility in the win. But he didn't. By not turning the ball over and keeping his team close, he did his part... and none of that even mentions the fact that his performance that day was pretty damn good. Because he didn't win by more than a touchdown minimizes all his effort and accomplishments? I don't agree with that.
Ok, this is malarkey. You can't quantify that with any number. If you're going to cite football statistic inflation, what is your multiple you are using when comparing the old days to now? You don't have one because that argument is garbage - It's all subjective. It was a different era, yes. That doesn't mean the legacy players stats will forever trump new players. You also don't take into consideration that there was far less competition then.
11th in total touchdowns 10th in completion percentage 101th in passes intercepted playing nerly a decade After his career is over he will be in the top ten for total yards as well. This is without major offensive talent except during 07-09.
I am fair in my judgment. I am not giving major credit to Dilfer or Johnson, or taking away credit from Kelly because 2 walked away with title, and one had a kicker cost him a title. In the same way, I am not harping on Brady being matched Pass for Pass by Delhome and simply watching AV make his 2nd straight game winning SB FG. Again, Brady is top 20 QB easily, I am simply talking about SB or NFL title being often used improperly when judging a performance or career. I dont begrudge the talent of Marino and knock him down a peg because he didnt have the stars align. As a QB, Brady deserves praise, I am not heaping more or less based on title outcome.
But you're not showing conflict after conflict. As you said yourself, you're trying to catch up. Your "conflicts" are nothing more than parroting things others have already written and I've already debunked.
Most passing touchdowns, regular season: 50 (2007) Most passing touchdowns, regular season and postseason combined: 56 (2007) Most touchdown passes, month: 20 (October 2007) Most passing touchdowns, quarter: 5 (vs. Tennessee, October 18, 2009) Largest touchdown to interception difference: +42 (2007) Most games with 3+ touchdown passes, regular season: 12 (2007) Most consecutive games with 2+ touchdown passes and no interceptions: 7 (2010, October 24–present) Completions Highest single-game completion percentage, postseason: 92.9% (vs. Jacksonville, January 12, 2008)[60] Tied for most completions in a Super Bowl: 32 (XXXVIII) Most career Super Bowl completions: 100 (XXXVI, XXXVIII, XXXIX, XLII) Interception-free streaks Most consecutive pass attempts to start a career without an interception: 162 Most consecutive pass attempts without an interception in a single season: 319 (2010, October 24–present) Career bests These are just some recent accomplishments....
I think that's a big problem too. People think that I'm knocking Brady. I've said he's a HoF QB. I've said he's been a major contributor to his teams success. I just can't at this moment put him in my top 10-20 list.
I cant list 20 QBs that are career to date, or retired that are better doing the job of being a elite NFL QB. I listed 18 earlier....but Brady was in that 18.
Why are you knocking those listed accomplishments? There is a reason no other QB can list them as their own. Most were from the last couple seasons.
1. Graham 2. Unitas 3. Montana 4. Tarkenton 5. Marino 6. Elway 7. Young 8. K. Anderson 9. Fouts 10. Favre 11. Staubach 12. Jurgensen 13. Starr 14. P. Manning 15. Van Brocklin 16. Tittle 17. Baugh 18. Luckman 19. Kelly 20. Stabler (No particular order for these Top 20 Greats) I could see Brady pushing off Stabler or Kelly.
Even the GREAT record, (consecutive passes w/o an INT) was held by Bernie Kosar. lol... Again, those things you just posted are nothing more than repeating the same record over and over and over. How many times are you going to count his TD's? Once for each quarter. Once for each half. Once for each game. Once for each season. Once for his career. Yeah, thataway it'll look like he has more records. lol...
They're individual records from the same season. No one is repeating anything. That interception feat was incredible considering Kosar did it in two seasons while scoring only 10 touchdowns. 34-4 and counting.
Me too, easily....and still dont think Sonny is ahead of Brady. I can make the case for top 10 since I still think Anderson, Fouts, Farve, Staubach shouldnt keep Brady out of top 10. I would move Baugh, Starr, and P. Manning up higher. I would add Archie Manning before Stabler. But everyone has an opinion. Brady is not the Greatest Ever, I am confident of that for now.
My list isn't in any order. To get Brady in the top 10 you'd need to take 11 QB's off of that list. Who are your 11? I can MAYBE get 3-4 off. 1. Graham--NO 2. Unitas-- NO 3. Montana-- NO 4. Tarkenton-- NO 5. Marino--NO 6. Elway-- NO 7. Young-- NO 8. K. Anderson-- NO 9. Fouts-- NO 10. Favre-- NO 11. Staubach-- NO 12. Jurgensen-- NO 13. Starr-- NO 14. P. Manning-- NO 15. Van Brocklin-- NO 16. Tittle-- NO 17. Baugh-- NO 18. Luckman-- MAYBE 19. Kelly-- MAYBE 20. Stabler-- MAYBE
Top 10 (semi order) Graham, Marino, Unitas, Montana, Elway, P. Manning, Brady, Baugh, Tittle, and Young or Starr (toss up). Tarkenton, Anderson, Fouts, Favre, or Staubach are not top 10. Bradshaw is top 20 before Stabler or Kelly also.
You know its sad around here when the longest post in a long time has been about tom brady.Please make it stop!
I'd put Brady at #3 or #4 (Right with Joe Montana) on that list. And, no way would I put Favre ahead of Manning. Oh, and I would drop Tarkenton down. I saw him play a lot - as with all those guys who played after 1966 or so, and while he was a very effective scrambler, and played a long time, I never thought he was as great as several of the others. If I had a choice between Tarkenton and Staubach - I'd take Staubach any day. I'd probably put Unitas at #1 ahead of Graham - b/c I think Unitas may have been the least benefitted from a system (as Montana under Walsh or Graham, to a lesser degree, under the great Paul Brown). Unitas was his own system! 1. Unitas 2. Graham 3a. Montana 3b. Brady 5. Marino 6. Elway 7. P. Manning 8. Young 9. Staubach 10. Starr 11. Tarkenton 12. Favre
John Unitas was the original & prototype I watched every game he ever played as a Baltimore Colt he is the best of all time as far as I'm concerned the #1 all time NFL QB without equal 1) Unitas 2) Montana 3) Brady 4) Starr 5) Manning 6) Marino 7) Young 8) Staubach 9) Elway 10) Tarkenton
I thought long and hard about putting Bradshaw on this list. He was tough and loved the game. However, his skills weren't like the QB's on my list. In fact, Bradshaw was Big Ben before Big Ben. Good QB's, no doubt, but more a product of their teams. Just like Brady. When I watch Brady play, I have never, ever seen a QB have as much time or as many options to throw the ball. Never. The guy can literally just sit back there and wait for the coverage to break down. However, on those rare occasions where his line allows him to be pressured, he wilts. It happenes every single time. Think of the great JT games where he would hit Brady all day. Brady turns into a fumbling little girl whenever he gets so much as a hand in his face. The great QB's on my list played great even under pressure. Brady doesn't. Also, you removed 5 QB's from my top 20 list. With Kelly and Stabler taken off that's 7. This only puts Brady at number 14. Who are the other 4 QB's you would remove in order to get Brady into the top 10? Saying that Fouts, Tarkenton, Favre, and Staubach aren't top 10's, IMO, is just nuts. I can understand the Anderson thing since a lot of people never really heard much about him or watched him (which is a shame. The guy was incredible), but the others are elite QB's that everyone has heard of. I also understand the whole "Favre Hate", but the guy is one of the greatest of all time not only QB's, but NFL players.
What about Baugh or Graham? No love for Favre either? Fouts? Those 4 alone were a step above Brady, IMO.
That's why I started my post saying that my list was in no order. I just named my top 20 QB's of all time. I wouldn't put Favre over Manning either. I agree that Unitas, like Marino, were their own systems. P. Manning is too. Other than Super Bowl wins, there is not ONE thing Brady did as well as or better than anyone else on your top 12 list.
Well, the thing is, one can talk about the advantages of talent that every QB has around him and use that to denigrate him. Montana and Young both excelled in Walsh's phenomenal offensive system. Marino had the Marks Bros and Nat Moore and when they got old or injured or retired, while Dan still made great throws and had some great games, his stats were not nearly as great. I'd take the receiving corps of the Marks, Moore, Bruce Hardy, Joe Rose and Tony Nathan over any receiving corps Brady ever had. And, Dan also had an all-time great coach and a great pass-blocking O-line. Not taking anything away from Marino but the point is, anyone can frame an argument to make their guy look good or the other guy appear to have all the advantages. I don't think the Patriots system is that great but Brady has done a great job with it, imo. In terms of what Brady does "as well or better" - I think Brady is as clutch as any QB on the list (except for perhaps Unitas and Montana) but right there with Dan; I think Brady is as accurate a passer as any; His motion is as perfect as any I've seen; his decision-making is exceptional; and, he makes very few mistakes - probably as good as any QB on that list (right there with Montana). If I could have one QB right now for one big game, I'd take Tom Brady (until the end of last year and this year, I might have debated about Manning, but the SB hurt Peyton a bit). That may change - of course - if Brady blows up in the playoffs and chokes. I also suspect that if Brady were not on the Patriots but had done this in the 49er system years ago and if Montana were the guy in the Patriot system, playing right now as a rival, we'd be wanting to leave Montana out of the top 10 and put Brady up there.
Hey I loved this thread, it is a pleasure go on a RIVALS board and actually disagree (or agree with most which was a pleasant surprise) without any silly name calling. I personally have Brady in the top 10 All time, because UNLIKE marinephin I think looking at stats from a FULL career and comparing it to someone in his 9th year playing is the wrong way to do it. I also think Favre is a HOF QB but not even in the conversation for top 10 QB of all time. He IMO is the 1 style QB I would NEVER EVER want for my team, he does as much to blow a game for you as he does win a game for you..
I gave you my Top 10.... Top 10 (semi order) Graham, Marino, Unitas, Montana, Elway, P. Manning, Brady, Baugh, Tittle, and Young or Starr (toss up). I will gladly say it again, Fouts, Tarkenton, Favre, and Staubach aren't top 10's.
Yeah, a lot of people believe in "clutch" (even though scientific studies have proven that there is no such thing) and I think that alters their perceptions. When I look at measurable, real world things like stats, for just one example, I come toa differnet conclusion. Brady's short pass is pretty good, and right up there with the greats, however, like I stated earlier, he has more time to throw than any other QB I've ever watched. Now, of course there were times that all QB's have that 5 second window, but Brady has had that 90% of his career. And when you look at the 10% of his career when he didn't, you have a wimpering little girl who wets her panties. (*Note: the last part was just to be able to get these Pat fans around here riled up. Brady doesn't wet his panties, but he does wilt under pressure)
So are you going to add seasons to Brady's career at this point? I don't understand what you are saying here. We shouldn't look at someone's full career? And if you think that how do you already have Brady in your top 10? Listen, I've already stated that if Brady plays for 6-7 more seasons and all or most are like this current one or his 2007 season he will make my top 10 list. Right now he has 2 GREAT seasons out of his 10 years in the league. To me that does not qualify a person for top 10 greatest of all time.
Really? I would guess those with low reading comprehension skills would come to that conclusion, but aren't you Air Force? I thought Air Force was supposed to be full of smart guys? I mean, I know they are full of wimps too, but at least smart wimps?!
I would put them after the 11 I listed, obviously. I stated taking your 20, I would have Brady in top 10 (thus adding him to your 20)..and would add Bradshaw to the 20. thus knocking Kelly easily off that list....and probably Stabler to get to 20.
Wow...to say that Big Ben is a product of his team leads me to think you haven't watched him play much. Every game the guy makes plays after 250-300lb defenders hit him and they fall to the ground like they just ran into a brick wall. I have never seen a system that can teach that. That Brady wilts under pressure is NOT TRUE. At least, not any more so than any other QBs. Of course, ALL QBs don't do as well under pressure. Not hard to understand. Go throw a ball to a friend. Then go throw a ball to a friend while you are standing in traffic and a split second from being hit by a car. Your pass is not going to be as accurate. Doesn't matter who you are. But lets compare Brady's numbers this year under pressure with the two other QBs who are active and on your list. Brady under pressure: 21 comp, 50 att, 42%, 280 yards, 1 TD, 1 int, 58.8 QB rating, 10 times sacked Manning under pressure: 34 comp, 69 att, 49.3%, 421 yards, 2 TD, 4 int, 54.1 QB rating, 15 times sacked Favre under pressure: 21 comp, 62 att, 33.9%, 268 yards, 3 TD, 6 int, 19.5 QB rating, 22 times sacked Obviously Brady does a better job of getting rid of the ball and NOT taking a sack OR throwing and interception resulting in fewer "negative" plays. I could see Tarkenton and Staubach perhaps making the bottom 10, but Fouts? Please, talk about being a product of a system and the players around him. I am not a Patriot or Brady fan, but to deny the fact he is one of the best QBs to ever play the game is insane. I remember friends that were Laker and Pistons fans back in the day when Jordan was playing. They would do the same thing of saying how overrated he was and wasn't that great. All I could do is laugh and think "Too bad for them they are not able to appreciate greatness as greatness is happening."
I watch every single game every single week during the season. All of them. I've missed a few here and there over the last 8 or so seasons, so I haven't watched Ben every game of his career, but I've seen nearly all of them. As I wrote, Ben is a good QB, and is getting better. However, to claim that they cant' win without him or that he is even the biggest part of their winning is provably wrong. Do the research... Your "pressure" stats, first and foremost, are for how many games? I've crunched the numbers, and worked ALL of the stats. Brady, during his ENTIRE career, has been under far less pressure than the other greats of the game and when he is under pressure, his numbers reflect it more so than the greats. It could be argued that Fouts is closer to the top 5 all time rather than not be in the top 10 at all. The guy was amazing. Incredible. He played better than Brady while getting beaten to death by lineman and throwing passes to WR's that had DB's hanging off of thier heads.
One reason I rate Brady and many other QBs above Favre is that I see Favre as responsible for losing so many games. There are certainly many games that Favre or Brady was the reason their team won. But there aren't many games where I would say Brady was the reason they lost. In fact, I can't say that about most of the QBs on the list. Bradshaw was responsible for some losses early in his career. Marino had some multi-INT games as well. But neither of those guys was on the level of Favre when it came to losing games on his own. And while Favre may arguably have won more games on his own (at least on the regular season) than some of the others on the list, it doesn't compare to how much higher than average his blown games percentage is.
MPP, your post alone show you lack of intelligence and reading comprehension. I can't help but think you wish you would have scored higher on the test so you could have joined the Air Force or make it to the real Navy. Not just being a Navy Security scrub. Remember not all smart guys are wimpy and not all dumb guys are tuff. My Martial Art's record againgt you marines is something you would be jealous of. Like one poster said about a month ago. We both do fight for the same team. (That would be Uncle SAM) I felt the need to let you know which one as you might not understand. Now that I'm retired from the Air Force, I still support all the troops from the different branches. Even the ones who seem to have some sort of disability.
Notice the bolded and underlined: That's irony at it's best!! LOL! looks like you have a little insecurity showing, huh? I never said YOU were a wimp. I just said, and I'm going by my years of experience with AF people, that the Air Force is full of wimps. Also, it's kinda hard to score higher than a 99 on the ASVAB. In fact, it's impossible. When I took the test I had every branch of service come after me. I wanted to be a man so I joined the Marine Corps. I realize that we all fight/fought for one team. However, people from "certain" branches have a hard time with the ribbing taht goes on between services. My Grandfather spent 23 years in the AF. I think the U.S. Air Force is the greatest in the world. I just happen to think that the U.S. Marine Corps has done more with less during the history of the U.S.
