Mel Kiper Jr.: Too soon for Dolphins to kick Chad Henne to the curb

I want Henne to succeed but he has faults, some his some the coaching staff. He needs to be better than average, better than good because he is not on the Steelers. As for Bens ****ty SB game when Henne gets there we can compare his stats. Again if Pitts backups are that good they would have launched Ben in a trade and don't tell me no team was asking.

People can hate on Ben & Brady all they want and say its the system but the reality is the teams wouldn't be the same without these qb's and these qb's wouldn't be the same without these teams.

 

If Mel Kiper supports him, maybe, just maybe, he should be shot.

 

I dont disagree with any of this.

However, when you look at Ben and Tom, you see that they have surrounding casts that are perfectly suited to their needs. Offenses were built around those guys. Playcalling is suited to their strengths. Their Special Teams and Defensive play puts those guys in advantageous positions to win games b/c they're ranked 1st and 5th in INTs while we're ranked 28th...... and their ground game is much better too.

Nothing about our offensive design and personnel right now are truly suited for Henne's strengths. Chad needs vertical weapons to succeed and we draft him possession WRs/TEs and get rid of his ONLY vertical threat in Ginn. It's no different than putting a healthy Pennington into Philly's vertical passing offense and asking him to succeed. He'd look horrible and probably be picked left and right. If you put Henne in that offense, he'd look like a stud IMO.

Henne deserves his shot just like anyone. It burns my chaps knowing that we spend a 2nd round pick on a strong-armed QB who can make throws that few QBs in the NFL can make, yet we do NOTHING personnel/playcalling wise to allow him to use it. If he fails, he fails..... but I want to know that he's failing b/c he's truly failing, and not b/c he's failing b/c we've put him in the wrong system with the wrong cast.

IMO Robert_Horry is dead on. If you get Henne in a spacing offense with some speedy WRs who can get open on every level.... and you get Chad quality protection and turn that mother f*****'s arm loose, that he can pick apart a defense all game long if he has a balanced ground game and a quality outlet back & TE who can make defenses pay. We've seen him do it when he gets into a rhythm, and that's not even with the right personnel type.

Seriously, would any of us be complaining about Henne checking down if we had speed at the WR position and a great COP back to where Chad's dump off passes were being turned into exciting 20 & 30 yard gains? I sure as s#!t whouldn't. I'd be like: "go ahead and ignore our back!.... we'll dump it off on your a$$ all game!"

So tell me: is it the dump offs that we don't like?..... or is the guys whom we're dumping it off to that we don't like? Does anyone believe that Chief's or Ravens' fans are complaining about Jamaal Charles or Ray Rice catching dump off passes?

 

You could also argue that Jake Locker might be just as good of a player to acquire since he can really use possession receivers and would turn this into a somewhat more explosive, churn it out offense (his mobility can put up Tebow like yardage every game).

 

IMO is the best of the best, top 3, top 5 at the most. Any more than 5 now youre talkin 20% of the starting QBs and thats not my def of elite.

 

Can your mind wrap itself around the difference between team accomplishments and individual greatness? I guess Sanchez is elite-ish, he's made 2 straight AFCCGs. Marino played 17yrs and only made 2 championship games, is he not elite? Dan Fouts? Phil Simms is better than both those scrubs, he made 2 Super Bowls, and "won" both. Lawrence Taylor, Pepper Johnson etc, totally irrelevant. Bradshaw must be the greatest ever w/ his 4 titles. The Super Bowl equals elite status M.O., really looks stupid when its extrapolated. But most fans look the same way so why bother with silly things like nuance and detail.

 

See I don't love this definition, because if it's top 3 than you're not including one of either Manning, Brady, Rivers, or Rodgers. On top of that I think it's odd that there is this big distinction between 16.7% and 20% is 3.3% really the reason that someone isn't considered elite? Also I am willing to come out say plain and simply that I think Roethlisberger is one of the top 5 QBs right now. I said earlier I think that he is a better player than Drew Brees. Arguments can be made for and against most of these QBs as to whether or not they are elite, I just think that as of right now there's not a huge difference between Ben and any of the QBs I listed.

 

Much respect first of all. But I have to disagree. Ben isnt even the best player on his own team. Brees, Rivers, Manning and Brady are BY FAR the best their ream has to offer, while Harrison and Polamalu are both better than Ben. 2nd, The Colts, Saints, Chargers, Pats and yes, Packers, are next to nothing w/o their QBs. The Steelers are still a good team w/ an average QB. Dixon and Batch went a combined 3-1 without Ben, the only loss being a last second defeat to the Ravens. They were good with Kordell Stewart, Tommy Maddox, and Neil Odonnell. They were good with Chuck Knoll, Bill Cowher, and now Tomlin. The Steelers are an elite franchise, not dependent on any one player, the envy of the league, on the brink of Super Bowl title #7. Ben is a good QB, Im not denying that. But so are Matt Ryan, Jay Cutler, Mike Vick, Tony Romo, Matt Schaub, and any of those guys, IMO, could take the Steelers to the Bowl b/c the rest of their TEAM is that damn good. Ben was 14-2 as a rookie, b/c he's elite? No. He won the enchilada in 2004 b/c he was elite? No. His team was GREAT. If you ask me, the best play he's ever made was not the throw to Holmes, or the miracle to Wallace in 09, it was this:

[video=youtube;VXMWuRIGg6s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXMWuRIGg6s[/video]

Football is a team sport, where the media conspires to give all all of the credit/blame to the QB. Dolfans above all should understand this b/c we had a top 5 (of all time) QB for more than a decade and never one jack shi^t b/c our TEAM was not good enough. It aint just the QB people, wake up.

 

To compare Ben to others that you did is pure football ignorance. No one is saying that Ben does it alone and its painfully obvious that the Steelers are good in most areas most of the time. But dear lord, YOU need to wake up and pay attention to what he does for that team. The arrogance on here is ridiculous. And for the record, I thing Rodgers will outplay him in the SB.

 

Cart before the horse GM, the purpose is to win the Super Bowl, not to compile Stats, the Jets v Steelers game was a great example of it:

Sanchez=100 plus QBR
Rothlesberger=39 QBR

One is going to the SB, the other is hitting up models at NYC night clubs.

 

This makes sense to me, but of course don't agree fully (what fun would this be if I did?). My main point in that post was meant to be that to base elite on a certain number of players, or to not include someone because you've met your quota isn't a great way to define it.

That's not all! To put Rivers as by far the best on his team is tough to say because Eric Weddle is nasty, Antonio Gates is an absolute monster. Tom Brady is certainly the best player on his team, but Logan Mankins is a stud, as is Jerod Mayo; and to your point, I think that the Patriots win the Super Bowl in 2001, 2003, and 2004 with other QBs. Peyton Manning unbelievable player, but as of right now I gotta think that the difference in impact is not that large between he and Dwight Freeney. I don't think that Drew Brees is better than Carl Nicks or Jahri Evans. Aaron Rodgers is on a stacked team, I mean you saw how the offense slowed when Chad Clifton went down, Greg Jennings, Donald Driver, Clay Matthews, Nick Collins, any of them work?

Basically all I'm trying to say here is that you can't disregard how good a QB is because they play with other great players. I think that Ben is way better than the QBs you listed, outside of Cutler all of those guys have better talent on offense than he does.

 

My mind very easily wraps itself around football being a team sport that requires individual accomplishments. People diminish the importance of Ben & Brady and that's foolish. Funny how people throw stats like QB ratings, completion pct, etc etc but when you bring up Superbowl wins, winning pct etc it means nothing and the teams won in spite of. Yet when it was announced that Ben would be reinstated in time for the game this year people moaned and I can only ponder how many did back flips when Brady went down a few years ago.

 

Not sure what you're arguing here. That I dont know what he does for the team? Fine, Ill play along. What does he do for his team? And how does that detract from the notion that he is not a top 5 QB?

 

I dont hear any football savvy people claiming that comp % is an accurate measure of how good a QB is. Its just one stat, and it suggests that checking down for a 5 yd gain while not seeing a wide open WR 30 yds down field is a not a bad thing. QB rating is a results based stat. An INT is an INT, whether it was a terrible pass or a perfect pass that the WR tips into a defender's hands. If Desean Jackson takes a bubble screen and goes 80 yds, the QB is rewarded as if he made a great play, etc etc. The only true way to judge a QB is to watch him on film, period. I can assure you that coaches and scouts are not poring over stats after the game to determine who played well, they're watching tape to find out whether the QB completed their assignment properly on each individual play. Stats are for the fans and media. Sounds like we agree on that.

The rest of what you alluded to, I've never said.

Winning % and Super Bowls is a TEAM stat. Jake Long is an All-Pro, should we dock him b/c his team only won 7 games? No, that'd be silly. Same goes for Steven Jackson, Joe Thomas, Larry Fitzgerald, and countless other guys who are very good but stuck with bad supporting casts. Only the QB is judged on wins and losses, common sense seems to prevail with all of the other positions. Obviously, QB is the most important position, but judging them on win% oversimplifies the game to the point where it becomes more misleading than informative. IMO.

 

Roster QB'S aside...when ever free agency fires up they should sign Pat Devlin out of Delaware.Go with Henne all year to see if he is going to make or break.I would be careful of trading the future.Stay clear of Carson Palmer he has no back bone.

 

no its not too soon to kick the Hen to the curb, its too late!

now, we're stuck with him for another season,
obliged to wish him well & support him in every way.
it is what it is ...but please,
no more excuses if/when the hen comes up short.

 

Last year at this time you said Henne had made his bones and now you say we stuck with him for too long.
Some might say you're flip flopping. If you liked him before last season and don't now what would you have done to get rid of Henne.
I mean you got what you wanted.... Henne got the hook.
Pennington lasted about one play before he fell apart. Thigpen came in and stunk it up.
So we should have dumped Henne before the last year of his contract before we see him with another OC.
I must say please stop embarrassing yourself. You don't have any ideas for the QB situation you just ramble on about how bad Henne is without ever putting together a true thought.
Your posting doesn't make sense WALL-E.

 

Thigpen played pretty well against the Titans.

I do not think any quarterback in this league could have done well against the Bears in the situation Thigpen was in.

-no starting reps for most the season
-every lineman either playing injured or 2nd or 3rd string
-star wide receiver hurt second half
-week too short to learn game plan or put any major changes in gameplan

I would have been interested to see how Thigpen would have done. With his escapability he would give a better chance to make plays on the breakdown caused by the injured linemen. Which might be offset by the extra yards lost on sacks due to him trying to make plays.

It would have made the late season collapse feel better as a fan. Very easy to justify a loss when the third quarterback is starting.

 

Sorry, but I could care less what Kiper thinks about Henne as a QB. The fact is that Kiper has NEVER worked in the NFL. He has made his reputation by going on TV and making people think he is some kind of talent expert. If he was as good as he thinks he is , I have no doubt that an NFL team would have hired him as a GM a long time ago. Henne is not, and will not be, a quality starting QB in the NFL. I have no doubt that after this coming season is over, all those who think Henning was the problem and not Henne, will be ready to jump off the Henne bandwagon.

 

And Henne was supposed to be successful with the supporting cast that he had last year ?? This is what gets me about bashing Henne right now. He didn't have the power run game and WC run game that Penny had in 2008. He hasn't had any kind of consistent OL protection. He's got no speed on the outside (or inside, for that matter) to speak of in the WR/TE corps. Lousy/wildly inconsistent play calling in his time as QB. He's got no real go-to guys on offense in the RB, TE or WR group.
'
Too soon to give up on him yet, however, if they fail again this coming year (coaching/scouting staffs) then it won't matter. A new regime will be put in place and that will be that...

 

While I do agree that some people are too harsh on Henne, however some things I do not agree with when people come to his defense.

For instance, the no speed on the outside when it comes to the WR/TE corps. Since I was a Dolphin fan this is by far the best wide receiving corp I have seen for the Dolphins since Duper and Clayton. I think a good quarterback would enjoy this wide receiving corp.

I also do not know and no one knows how much of the playcalling effected Henne or was effected by Henne's limitations.

I do not buy that Henne would have had a great season last year if all the problems were fixed on offense and I am not comfortable with having a quarterback that needs a gang of all pros to be successful. Miami isn't going to fix all their problems on offense because no team is perfect. Henne is going to have to play better for Miami's offense to play better.

If other things fall into place, then Miami will have a better offense.

 

Friend Killerphins:

an inaccurate & nasty post unworthy of your fine mind & pristine character.
please check your facts before posting:

1) in 2009 I supported Henne ( as did most true-dolfans ) as he made his debut as our starter. by the end of the year my support was quickly waning & my posts reflected the fact.
2) in the preseason of 2010 I posted that if he had not stepped up by game-four of the regular season he should be benched. I never wavered in this opinion, not once. I was amongst his most ardent critics from game four until the end of the season.
3) in 2011, I sported the opinion that the offensive line & running game should be fixed before drafting a QB. what I suggested was to acquire a veteran QB on the cheap to compete with Henne for the start. if things didn't work out, 2012 would be the year to target the Franchise QB in the draft.

my posting has been consistent & on target. you have embarrassed yourself.

 

I agree that this wr corps is the best since the Marks brothers but still is lacking deep speed. Hartline is deceptive but not a deep ball guy. That limits the offense if no stretch the field kind of guy.

Henne desereves alot of blame, he didnt handle adversity like he should have or you want him to, but as I said all year, what goes on behind teh scenes is critical and is just somethimng we dont know about. Henne may have made a mistake deferring to penny alot thinking he is doing the respectful thing whereas guys saw it as he wasnt strong himself and thus were weary and then teh struggles they lost it and Sparano hedging further hurt that. I dont know, but know its possible that a string of bad luck and bad fortune hurt him.

Now Henne has his back to the wall. Vewry similar to Brees in SD in his 4th year. How does henne respond? this will determine how good henne could be. remember Bress had his perceived weaknesses as well, noit tall enough, arm strength. After he manned up and took charge those questions went away. I am also not saying Henne is as good as Brees. What I am saying is that Henne has shown some skills and factroing in teh options to upgrade this offfseason, it is prudent that they are giving him this shot TO EARN THE JOB, they are not giving it to him. No excuses, no turning back, your back is to teh wall you want it go get it Henne, if not get out of the way and allow someone who does take it. But either way teh debatew will be settled.

 

Do not get me wrong, I am one of the biggest fans of speed. If I was a GM I would fit in with Al Davis with my love of speed. However I do believe this is highly overblown. You do not need great speed to be a deep threat. Mike Williams played for the Seahawks and was a pretty decent deep threat. He is slower than dirt and Seahawks wish they had a line as good as Miami's.

 

If your qb is Chad Pennington who has pinpoint accuracy and just knows where to go before the ball is snapped I agree. But that isnt Henne's style, he just doesnt have that skill yet, he isnt pennington, he can develop that skill like Brady did, but he had the arm and in college you can get by with that. Pennington was always limited by his arm so his study of defenses and knowing where to go was where he compensated for not being able to gun it, he had to know and get to a spot before the receiver got there and thus before the defender.

For henne who is adjusting his game to learn those skills but is still in his head alot, having teh safeties closer to line hurts him in that it makes him be pinpoint accuaret which isnt his strength and with still growing he is a half second late, this also hurts him. Where Gates helps him is he backs a safety off further from teh line and gives Henne that extra half second. Now henne has to take advantage and show growth, because now he has all those components, it is on him to show the ability and growth.

 

Well Gates will have to show the ability to blow passed NFL cornerbacks with henne having to prove the ability to throw him the ball when he does. If that doesn't happen the safeties do not go up and they just cover Gates one on one or keep their current coverage.

I do not think so much it is pinpoint accuracy as much as it is timing and decision making. Accuracy does help, especially in the redzone.

I have yet to see proof that Henne is a slinger. I have only seen proof that Henne is more of a dink and dunker.

 

I don't know that last years wideouts were really better than other years. For instance, in 2005 we had Booker, Chambers, and McMichael. Chambers had 1100 yards and 11tds. Mcmike had 60 for 582 and 5 tds. Booker had 39 for 686 and 3 tds.

Gus Frerotte was able to do pretty decent that year...of course, Ricky and Ronnie combined for like 1600 yards and 10 tds that year...amazing that a decent run game allowed slightly above average receivers to do well. Henne did pretty well this year until the entire offense fell apart around him.

 

People tend to forget that Chad Henne was paired with the second best running game in 2009 and Ted Ginn, yet posted similar below average numbers.

I wish we could give the guy everything. When I say everything, I mean any player he covets for success. It doesn't work that way though. At some point, Chad Henne must take control and realize his goal is to lead the team to wins. He needs to find a lot of those intangibles that make QBs stick in this league. People refer to it as that "it" factor.

 

I still don't think Henne was all that bad last season. Give him a second half of the season like the first half, in regards to injuries, and I think his tds and ints would have been different. He posted a decent rating and went over 3,000 yards...it's not like he had nothing that was good last year.