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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Boomer, Feb 15, 2011.

  1. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Personally, I'm not saying that he isn't a leader. I'm saying that we can NOT assume that he'll be a good leader in the NFL just b/c of his success at Auburn..... and I won't assume he can become a good leader simply from reading a book or taking a class if he doesn't have it in him naturally <contrary to members' beliefs>.

    Added: even those who know Cam will not necessarily be able to tell if he is or is not a natural leader (or a potential leader at the complex NFL level).
     
  2. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Thee...Ohio State University

    I havent read through the thread, but IF thats what your saying???

    Your exactly right.

    You can have an opinion on if a guy from college can lead a group of NFL men but if you say it matter of factly then you have issues.
     
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  3. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    That's exactly what I've been saying since my initial posts on the matter.

    To sum up the thread, there are people who feel that natural ability isn't a prerequisite to good leadership..... that if Cam isn't an instinctive leader (a natural at it) that he can just take a class at his local community college or read a book to become a good leader. People are also assuming that time isn't of importance and that Cam can simply become a leader over night if he wants to rather than potentially taking years to accomplish.

    If someone isn't a born leader, what good are they to your team if it takes them maybe 10 years to become a good leader?

    I understand how difficult great leadership is to accomplish, so I won't simply assume anything about it if the player in question hasn't already displayed these leadership skills (especially in the environment and conditions he'll be required to use them).

    The most talented college player in the country leading a college offense based on simple reads is NOT the same thing as leading a complex NFL offense comprised of grown men (where mental ability IS a prerequisite). For Cam to be a good NFL leader, he first has to be prove that he has the mental ability to run an NFL offense (which he has yet to do) b/c you can't lead anyone if you don't know what you're doing (and this is not a racial statement). I'm not saying that Cam won't be mentally capable; I'm saying that we can't assume that he WILL be mentally capable..... and if we can't assume that he'll be mentally capable, then we can't assume that he'll be a good leader.

    In the NFL, Cam won't be able to use his legs and natural talent as a crutch when times get tough <like he did in college>. It's one thing for players to follow someone who's the most talented & productive guy on the field. It's another thing to follow the most talented guy on the field when he doesn't yet know what he's doing or isn't producing.

    We have to put the horse before the cart here.
     
  4. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Tim Tebow isn't a great leader b/c he took classes on it or read a book. He's a great leader b/c it runs in his blood; it's a natural instinct for him. He instinctively knows what to say, when to say it, and how to say it (including emotions) in order to achieve maximum results. He's a great leader b/c it's in his blood to rise to the occasion when things get tough. It's in him to get others to believe in him and in themselves. It's in him to get the best out of those around him. All of this comes back to the "whats, whens, and hows". Leadership is in Tebow b/c he has the unwavering heart, desire, dedication, and passion for what he does. It's in him b/c he has a natural compassion & empathy for people. He instinctively understands people. He understands emotion. To lead people, you have to understand them, which is a separate talent in and of itself.

    I could go on and on about why Tebow is a great leader for reasons that others <without a natural ability for it> will NOT get from some local class, practice, or a book.

    A book or class can encompass everything about leadership, but it can't effectively teach you the "whats, whens, and hows" based on the infinite number of situations a person can find himself in.
     
  5. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I also stated that it's easier to predict guys like Matt Ryan's or Josh Freeman's leadership potential b/c their college play & offense type was more similar to what they'll be doing in the pros when compared to Cam. The margin of error grows larger with Cam b/c there are more unknowns.
     
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  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Just from a college leadership perspective I would say that the two were pretty close in terms of leading their perspective teams to a championship, same kind of aura amongst their fans..Tebow is gods QB so everyone else is gonna fall a little bit short, but I do see some comparisons..Now how Cams version will translate to NFL players, I have no idea, but I did have a conviction about Tebow, hence projecting him to go in the first.
     
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  7. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    The other thing to consider that hasn't been mentioned on the subject: is that leadership involves different margins of error.

    A QB in the NFL has little margin of error as a leader b/c he only goes to work 16 days out of the year (excluding post season), and he's in a profession where success is measured by wins and losses rather than anyone's individual production.
    He's in a profession where succeeding can still be failing b/c his team can be better than 80% of the rest and still be considered a failure. Not being the best of 32 could be considered failing.

    A manager of a restaurant has over 200 days annually of leading, with each individual day being less significant than one of a QB's 16.
    The manager can botch a day (leadership wise) and still be considered successful at the end of the year. The manager can be better than half of his other franchise's 31 stores and still be considered successful.
     
  8. Rhody Phins Fan

    Rhody Phins Fan Well-Known Member

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    The QB goes to work every day of the season with practice and film sessions. He can certainly show leadership during these times.
     
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  9. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Nail, meet head.
     
  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    If you really read through this thread, there are a few people that have been very rational in their approach on the subject, intellectually honest about it which means they admit they very well could be wrong despite their feelings, and then there has been ToddsPhins who has shat upon everyone who has disagreed with him, declaring boldly that if they disagree with him they are flat out wrong period, probably ignorant, probably not very smart (under the guise of 'understanding this stuff doesn't come naturally to you'), probably an idiot, etc.

    Seriously. Read up.

    And then others come in here and try and look like the smartest person in the room by pretending their are two extreme sides so they can play King Solomon and look wise. I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. Read the arguments. Read the actual sources of disagreement/disapproval in this thread.
     
  11. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    Of course no one is "right" per se on this topic. It goes both ways. What one does though is have an opinion. Toddphins seems to be mixing up opinions and facts.

    There aren't two extreme sides. Its a mix of both in my opinion. You need some natural leadership, but you can learn to develop it more. But I don't really buy into the argument you can just teach someone who doesn't have that persona and drive.
     
  12. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I agree with this, but we all know that it's 16 games (and post season) where it's truly measured. If he has a bad day of practice, it won't really affect the season, but one bad game can. That was more the point.
     
  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Nobody in this thread has said you can teach advanced leadership skills to absolutely anyone. There are people that just aren't going to get it, one way or another, whether due to lack of intelligence or other character foibles.

    I happen to think that the subject as it applies to the NFL (notice some people keep bringing up non-NFL leadership), tends to be a crock of sh-t. Players talk about a QB as a leader basically if and only if he's talented and gets the job done, and has some bare minimum prerequisites and commitments to the role (which guys like Vince Young don't have). You don't have to be able to inspire troops to die on the beaches of Normandy to be considered a "leader" in the NFL, at the QB position. You don't have to be able to inspire hundreds of millions of voters to put your finger on THE button, by making you the most powerful man in the world, in order to play QB in the NFL. It is...a GAME. Yes, it takes some natural ability, but if you didn't have enough natural ability to put in some work and train on with the rest, you probably wouldn't have gotten this far anyway. Could that be wrong? Sure. But I'm not the one in here calling people out for being ignorant, stupid, or just plain wrong, simply because they disagree with my ideas of leadership. Or rather, I've done so to ToddsPhins, but only in mocking him because he is the one who HAS outright said that other people are stupid and/or ignorant if they disagree with his positions.
     
  14. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Thee...Ohio State University

    Im really not interested in reading it and really dont know who said what or whatever, but what I do know is that NOBODY here has anything more than an opinion on if Cam will be a leader or not in the NFL, because they really dont know.

    Can leadership be tought?? I think a little but I also think you really have to have the personality but not all the time. A great example is our very own Chad Henne, I watched him for 4 years at Michigan and he was the leader of that team and a good one at that. Now? Turmoil and IMO fear of failure has made him into an unconfident dud. So I do think its not carved in stone either way.


    Be excellent to eachother....
     
  15. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    This is true. TP is going a bit too far with the inspire troops. Theres are silent leaders like Eli Manning. He isn't going to inspire anyone. Unless he completely changes into a Brian Dawkins on gameday. However, I have experienced both types of leaders. One that is respected and quiet and one that is in your face and charges you up. In my opinion, I much prefer a Tony Sparano type leadership than a Chain Gailey with regards to firing you up for gameday and going to battle for someone.
     
  16. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    The findings of the Gallup Organization's 30 year, multimillion dollar study on this related subject seem pretty factual...... as do their worldwide successfully practiced results. And it's hard to dispute that millions of people aren't a good enough sample size. This particular Gallup study (as they have many) now includes 10 million employee and manager interviews spanning 114 countries and conducted in 41 languages.

    But..... CK disagrees with this study (and its related book I referenced 'Now Discover Your Strengths') so it must be wrong.

    *Here's one of its accolades:
    *One of the book's authors, Donald Clifton, was named the 'Father of Strengths Psychology' by the American Psychological Association.

    *One of the top leadership development organizations worldwide, Linkage Inc, bases their 'Excellence in Management & Leadership' program on the this particular Gallop Study and its related books. Their clients include dozens of some of the largest organizations in the country.
     
  17. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    "few" being the operative word. Does "rational" infer giving personal opinion rather than using a majorly comprehensive study, multiple best selling books, etc etc? If so, then you're the most rational poster in this thread!!! You're just like GardenHead---- lashing out at people who are questioning Cam Newton.

    Good idea..... do read up. I didn't shat on anyone till shat upon.
    The only thing I initially stated for good reason was that this subject isn't debatable (and i didnt say it to any of the people you're referring to).
    I made a joke toward Dol-fanDupree which was followed up with an "lol" to show that I wasn't actually serious about meaning it.
    That was the initial extent of my so called "attacking" or such.

    If we're keeping track here,
    The first deliberate condescending BS came with your little "YIKES" post (which I would've though was just joking around if you didn't continue on with even more remarks from the peanut gallery)......
    The 2nd remark came from GardenHead when I had previously said nothing offensive to him.

    ........followed by this one from CK, the hypocrite (I love this one by the way):
    Then comes antagonist CK even though I had YET to say anything disrespectful to you in this thread:
    You don't know how Dupree and I do or don't get along, yet you still manage to ride up on your horse with c**k in hand. Do you even know that Dupree and I harass each other all the time as if it's a part of our normal dialogue?


    CK chimes in AGAIN even though I've STILL yet to insult him or respond to him:
    Wait, it's not that condescending, instigating CK again (and once again butting in as the self appointed interpreter of members' posts):
    Then comes Emo despite me previously not saying anything offensive to him in this thread:
    Next was Dupree's, but his doesn't count b/c he's just busting my chops in return.

    It wasn't till the 9th page and after all your stupid potshots and attempts to riot the masses that I finally laid into you.

    Then it was GardenHead again:
    After all this is when I returned the favors. (Side note: It's funny how much you absolve yourself.)

    If people did some research on their own about this company or read ANY of their books, then you'd understand that this new way of thinking is highly regarded world wide for a reason---- b/c it's accurate & proven effective, unlike the beliefs of the past.

    But no, no one did any of that. All you guys did was tell me that I was wrong w/o giving any substantial findings to back yourselves up. So it's ok for you guys to tell me that I'm wrong and that the subject IS debatable, but it's not ok for me to tell you that it isn't debatable, especially when most of you (outside of Rafael) used nothing but opinion to back yourselves up? Did anyone ask for my reasoning why?..... or did you automatically state your opinion that I was wrong?

    If you don't want me (or anyone) to attack you, then acknowledge what the person is saying first, ask them for their proof, and THEN pass your opinionated judgement. IIRC, Rafael and I were the ONLY 2 people in this thread to reference something other than personal opinion....... so why don't you hop off your high horse b/c you contributed nothing to this thread but your own interpretations of leadership & adversity as if you're the world's foremost mind on the subject. :tongue2:
     
  18. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    All the previous stuff I mentioned on this subject is based off of just 1 of their best selling books...... as they have probably a dozen of them.

    *The NY Times best seller, 'Strength Based Leadership' (which I've yet to discuss), was based on decades of research by Gallup scientists on the topic of leadership. They studied more than 1 million work teams, conducted more than 20,000 in-depth interviews with leaders, and even interviewed more than 10,000 followers around the world to ask exactly why they followed the most important leader in their life. Gallup's author of this book, Tom Rath, is one of the best selling authors of the past decade. But again, CK's 1-2-3 step opinion on leadership is right, and this massive study is wrong. lol.



    **Here's a Q&A in an interview with the Gallup authors of '12: The Elements of Great Managing', Rodd Wagner and James K. Harter, Ph.D. (This book was a follow up to their widely acclaimed best seller'First, Break All the Rules'.)

    Gallup's bestseller, 'Human Sigma' (from John Flemming, PhD Social Psychology, Princeton), which deals with managing the employee-customer encounter, is based on Gallup research spanning 10 million employees and 10 million customers around the globe. Gheesh, you're right, GardenHead, I'm really losing credibility for referencing this monumental organization. I should be ashamed of myself for such ridiculousness.



    Hmmmm...... not sure why a company would want a Nobel Prize Winner (on the above list) when they could sign up for ThePhins and simply ask CK for his expert advise. :shifty:



    Again, this organization could probably cut some serious cost by just PM'ing CK, Emo, or GardenHead.


     
  19. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    1st off. I've yet to call anyone stupid in this thread. Nice straw argument by someone who calls others out for such nonsense.

    Secondly....... "It's just a GAME"??? :huh: WHAT!!!?? It's a JOB, a CAREER.... and a serious one!! It's a game when you're not paid for it. When a guy is subjecting his body to potential long term disability, is getting paid millions, and has a billion dollar franchise and the hopes of millions of fans resting on his shoulders, it is NOT just a game. Cmon now.

    Leadership can change across professions, however the basic prerequisites are still the same. Motivating & leading a team to a come-from-behind-win that leads to a SB victory can be a difficult task if morale was previously shot. Are the millions of books sold on leadership (along with the classes you referenced) only sold to troops heading off to battle or govt officials trying to run a country? (There are more facets to leadership than simply "inspiring" others). At least you're coming around to saying that some natural talent is a prerequisite.

    Players start off with 16 chances to win in the NFL, and all of them count. This isn't like the NBA, NHL, or MLB where you can be afforded a few more opportunities of missed wins.

    I've never said it comes from talent alone. I said it comes from an underlying talent that coincides with an effort to bring this talent to fruition. I've also never said that Cam won't be a good leader in the NFL.





    **And yes, you are calling people wrong (and someone other than me to boot). :lol:
     
  20. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I don't recall saying that the whole rah rah rah stuff was a required aspect of leadership. Part of my argument in this thread is that motivation is NOT the same thing as leadership, so I'm not sure where the "inspire the troops" stuff came from. I stated that just b/c Cam is a great pregame motivator, it doesn't make him a leader in the NFL.
     
  21. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Just so everyone's clear on the matter.......... Is it only yourself who is allowed to tell other members that they're wrong b/c your research and evidence "supposedly" proves it?

    That's how it seems b/c you're lambasting me for doing the SAME thing despite my proof coming from a respected, massively global study, years of major research with some of the leading experts & advisers (including Deepak Chopra, Daniel Kahneman, Ph.D., winner of the Nobel Prize in economics), and a highly regarded, bestselling book by the Father of 'Strengths-Based Psychology'...... where as yours came from your opinion based on your personal study of Cam Newton film. :lol:
     
  22. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    I know this post is from five days ago (roughly the last time I checked in on this thread), but quite frankly, everything between now and then appears to be nonsense... so here I am, addressing the last serious thing to be posted here.

    Michael Vick, in college, had a 1.6 Pass:Rush attempt ratio.
    Vince Young also checked in a 1.6.

    In the pros, Vick's ratio jumped to 3.2 and Young's 4.5.

    Simply put, they ended up running less when they got into the NFL (by wide margins).

    Now, if you look at the past decade of superbowl winners, 3/10 have been by teams with mobile quarterbacks (there are no run-first QBs in professional football at the moment): 2x Ben Roethlisberger, 1x Aaron Rodgers.

    I don't have an exact stastic, but over the years, I seem to recall many mobile quarterback-led teams making it deep into the playoffs as well: McNabb, Vick, VY, McNair, Favre, etc.

    The point is, many people argue that Cam Newton ran a lot in college and that his 1586 yards and 24 touchdowns won't translate into the NFL, and they're right. It'll be because of scheme, not ability though. As I mentioned already, many of these "run-first" (as you call them) quarterbacks have made successful transitions from the NCAA to the NFL, they just need to alter their play style to fit the pro-game.

    To finish, if you believe Cam is a better quarterback than both VY and Vick, we should all be praying that our team drafts him, because better than multiple all-pro/annual playoff contender sounds like a dynasty leader.
     
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  23. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I'm still sure you're wrong. Leadership isn't that complex of a skill, especially in football terms. I've known many guys with little leadership ability in any other phase of their life who have learned to talk the talk and walk the walk on the field.
     
  24. Ricky'sBong

    Ricky'sBong Reborn

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    dont criticize Cam Newton. he wants to be an entertainer.
     
  25. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    All football players are entertainers so he is going into the right profession
     
  26. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Deepak Chopra would nto agree with what you are saying. He would think that Cam Newton could learn enough leadership to be a NFL quarterback.
     
  27. Ricky'sBong

    Ricky'sBong Reborn

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    not unless he can read a defense and operate from under center he isnt...............
     
  28. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I do not know, I found Ryan Leaf very entertaining.
     

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