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We're lacking Dynamics on offense. (Hence why we need a different #2 WR)

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ToddsPhins, Feb 24, 2011.

  1. Ricky'sBong

    Ricky'sBong Reborn

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    what? first off Miles Austin is much bigger than Hartline, 40 time aside. Pro Bowl material? getting very carried away imo. if the Phins want an offense that scares ppl and can put up points in bunches, Brian Hartline as your #2 isnt good enough IMO. now if the team gets back to dominating in the run game, maybe so. but they are talking like they want an explosive offense. something has to be done to get Marshall freed up a bit.
     
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  2. Ricky'sBong

    Ricky'sBong Reborn

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    Ted Ginn 1.1 LOL. what a failure that man is
     
  3. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Who freed Marshall up in Denver?
     
  4. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    I see pro-bowl potential in Hartline, very similar to Austin.
    give Hartline a complete offense with a competent QB & OC
    he can only grow, stepping his game up even more, over-night.
    the WR Corp is not the problem, we need a RB & OL

    the explosion begins with the offensive line; we need to find players that can dominate the trench
     
  5. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    5.8 is impressive. 1 TD for an entire season is not. And why are you comparing Hartline to #1 WRs who produce their #s in spite of opposing defenses focusing their attention on stopping them? How many times was Hartline doubled or bracketed this year? How many times did opposing teams put their top CB on Hartline? Hartline is the guy defenses ignore so that they can focus on Marshall, and to a lesser extent Bess. Marshall's YAC numbers were horrible this year, not b/c he forgot how to break tackles and make plays, because he was draped in coverage and surrounded nearly every time he caught the ball. Meanwhile, Hartline sees a ton of single coverage so it makes sense that his YAC numbers would be higher. He's a nice player who can produce for us for a long time. If he continues to work on his route running I think he can be a Donald Driver, Steve Smith (NYG) or Derrick Mason type WR. But he's not a play maker or a legitimate deep threat. And he's definitely no Miles Austin.
     
  6. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    So the main contention is that you blame Hartline and others blame Henne.

    That is a lot to blame on Hartline.
     
  7. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    LOL. Wait, what am I blaming on Hartline?
     
  8. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    my optimistic prediction:
    Hartline emerges with the up-coming season.
    the guy is the real deal, however,
    not QB & OC proof. we shall see soon enough
     
  9. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    Brandon Stokley, duh :sidelol:
     
  10. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Mike Shanahan & Josh McDaniels.
     
  11. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    exactly!
    agreed & fuel for thought
    who has Hartline had?
     
  12. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    lol yet we have never built around Henne. Thats the the hilarious part. You built year one around Pennington and 2 and 3 around Pennington as well. Last year was about 2% of what an offense needs to be around Henne, and 2009 was about 10-12%
     
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  13. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Uh… Henne inherited what was supposed to be a pretty good offense. The R&R Express. Brandon Marshall and Davone Bess. Highly-paid offensive line. Good all-around TE in Fasano. Potential deep (enough) threat in Hartline.
     
  14. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    Easy answer...... Marshall got free on his own.
    He didn't do that in 2010.
    5.2 yards after the catch to 2.8 and seven less TD's
     
  15. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Yep!

    The offensive line actually gave Henne some time to throw but he got into panic mode too often. One thing Henne did was step up and into the pocket a few times which was nice to see. Henne has terrible footwork and even though the line gave him time, he really needs a perfect pocket to throw behind.
     
  16. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    A lot of that was the routes he was running Killahp, the plays where he broke long runs in Denver were things like slants where they matched him up on nickel linebackers, in Miami that rarely happened.

    More or less, the routes were what we had in 09 with Hartline taking Ginn's place, and Marshall taking Greg Camarillo's place.

    I shed no tears when Dan Henning left.
     
  17. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    As much of a failure that the offense ended up being. The excuse for Henne was Dan Henning. While true to a point the same can be said for some of Marshall's drop in production. Henning hardly gave the offense a chance and when they moved the ball we saw the WC come in. Henning could have done a much better job to get Marshall away from the shadows he saw all year long and with the number of catches and his yardage total being close to on par with his previous seasons, it is pretty clear it's not just Marshall...
     
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  18. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Ding ding ding!!!
     
  19. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Are you kidding? Our running game was near the bottom of the league. The highly paid OL was a disaster. Grove and Smiley were sent packing b/c they cant stay healthy. Carey was out or hurt half the year. Long played the whole season w/ a bad knee and the last 7 games w/ a bum shoulder. Marshall wasnt 100% the last half of the season. Hartline went down vs Cleveland. Moore and Wallace are practice squad material. Fasano is OK, but Nalbone, Mastrud & Epps are terrible.

    On a side note. Why not just rename the site blamehenne.com. Every single thread turns into a Henne bash fest. And most of the bashers dont have a clue about what makes NFL offenses work, or about football period. We DO NOT have an elite QB who can compensate for deficiencies w/ the rest of the offense. I used to hope that common sense would eventually prevail but clearly that's not going to happen. Todd made a good thread about ways to improve the offense but the Henne bashers are intent on hijacking an otherwise thoughtful thread. Props to the few people who are capable of staying on topic.
     
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  20. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    By design Henne left backs & TEs in to help w/ protection. And it wasn't a Henne issue b/c even in 08 we were 1st in the league in max protecting pass plays. People say Henne had all this time to throw, but with 3 receivers going against 7 DBs it kinda doesnt matter how much time you have b/c chances are no one is open.
     
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  21. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Hmm, seem to recall Henne had the option of calling protections.
     
  22. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    We all know there were max protections used but not always. The design was for the Rb's and TE to stay back and read the defense. Either the Rb or TE use a chip block then break out into the flats to help out if the routes were covered. That's why we saw Henne called check down Chad which I did not have a huge problem with him doing.

    BUT there were quite a few times when I counted to 5 and thats a hell of a lot of time. Henne did not look nearly as comfortable in the pocket last year as opposed to his first starts in 09. Also Henne was pretty good at fitting the ball into a tight window in college. That's what you need when you're running routes where there are more defenders than recievers. Not all of it lies on Henne, and that's not what I was implying.
     
  23. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Absolutely! This is one area of Henne's game that needs, and can be improved upon. Reading the defense and recognizing coverages, and blitzes is something Sparano said he needed to work on.
     
  24. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    The judge
     
  25. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    This is understandable when the Oline is a mess while being protective or cognizant of a bum knee. I didn't mind the check downs either. What I DID mind is that we had no playmakers to make anything of the checkdowns (along with little space to make plays in b/c of the poor dynamics). If we had Ray Rice (and more space), then we'd be singing a different tune during these check downs IMO, as it's it's hard to criticize a dump off when the player is turning it into nice chunks of yardage.

    However, our sub par threats made things stand out like a sore thumb....... and to be honest, when you crunch the numbers, Henne didn't really check down any more than the rest of a league as a whole. When your top 3 targets thrown to are all WRs, then that doesn't scream "check down" in the blown-out-of-proportion sense that many are making it out to be, especially when only 1 TE accounts for all the TE production during the season.

    In the playoffs, Flacco completed twice as many passes to backs & TEs than to his 3 WRs.

    Hell, during the regular season,
    Flacco's Ravens: 148 passes to WRs vs 150 to backs & TEs (49.7% to WRs) , where as
    Henne's Phins: 220 passes to WRs vs 114 to backs & TEs. (65.9%)
    Ryan's Falcons: 203 passes to WRs vs 158 to backs & TEs. (56.2%)
    Freeman's Bucs:148 passes to WRs vs 156 to backs & TEs. (48.9%)
    Sanchez's Jets: 152 passes to WRs vs 136 to backs & TEs. (52.8%)
    Bradford's Rams completed 221 passes to WRs vs 133 to backs & TEs. (62.4)

    You guys can take the above stats for what you will. All I know is that Henne completes a higher percentage of passes to his WRs than all the other young QBs. Living in NC, I don't go to the games or face the traffic afterward, so I get to watch a LOT of football....... with multiple games playing simultaneously. I've seen most of the league checking down as often or more so than Chad does........ and I've seen most of the league missing many downfield opportunities.

    Henne might not be THE answer right now, but that doesn't stop us from developing better dynamics and finding alternative answers at other areas until we find THE answer at QB......... or until Henne develops into the quality starter we all hoped he'd become.

    With the greatness our defense is capable of, we don't need a massive improvement on offense to be successful IMO; a tweak here and there could still help take us a long way. We had some opportunities on offense. We either just didn't convert many of those opportunities or we settled for FGs........ and we made things more difficult and demanding than they needed to be b/c we lacked playmakers and chunk yardage capability. I realize some of this falls on Henning, Henne, Sparano, injuries, and lack of depth, but our poor dynamics were responsible for part of the burden.
     
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  26. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    My mistake, what I meant to say was Henning called for max pro by design. All NFL QBs are expected to call/change protections on passing downs. I dont know what protections he called on individual plays, or how good a job he did with calling them. What I can do is remind you that this is a WR/ overall passing game thread, why do you insist on hijacking Todds thread? The Henne bashing has gotten more than enough ink dont ya think? Can't we talk about something else for a change?
     
  27. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    [​IMG]

    Ray Rice KILLED us w/ simple check downs in the B-More game.
     
  28. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    "Capital" K-I-L-L-E-D is right!!! I'd like to see one Miami fan complain if the shoe were on the other foot. He'd be facing the firing squad.

    Side note: Even having Marshall, Greg Little, and Hartline on the field together would greatly open things up for a decent back to make plays. If Marshall & Hart are lined up next to each other, I'd think that Hart's better speed (than Bess) would allow us to run more routes that provide greater separation from each other, hence spreading out the coverage & creating more space. Then Davone can come in to continue cleaning house on 3rd downs.
     
  29. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Speaking of Greg Little, GM............. he measured in at 6'3, 220. I could see him pushing 230+ in a few years at his frame. Freakin beast
     
  30. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    You need to show attempts as well to see the real measure. Not saying it would show a fault on Henne either. I'm sure we'll also see that so many of the completions to the Wr's were digs, drags, comebacks, and quick outs. Unless of course it was 3rd and 12 then it would usually be a play action useless bubble screen.... :)
     
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  31. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    :lol:

    damn, Oz...... why you gotta make my job more difficult?! lol. (that would be nice though if there were a breakdown of all the routes)

    You think those PA 3rd and longs left the building in Henning's box of forced retirement s#!t, or will Sparano continue to mesmerize us with their beauty?
     
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  32. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    I think I'll shoot myself if I see another useless playaction pass. They better get the run game going so the 3rd and extremely long is seen far less than last season. That's when playaction can kill a defense but using it less helps in other areas as well. It keeps Henne's head facing the play more which gives him a better view of the defense upon the snap, and becomes more of a surprise when used occassionaly. I'm not sure if having his back to the defense hurts Henne but it surely does not hurt him to keep it facing the Defense more often.
     
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  33. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Anquan Boldin with speed?
     
  34. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    "I think we have to get better on team speed overall...That’s something we’re going to be looking for...It’s become apparent we need more speed on the field, at all different positions..."


    Jeff Ireland

    Now, I think we can deduce that he's saying "all positions" to avoid tipping his hand in any direction prior to the draft but not everyone is so tight lipped:

    “They need an outside receiver,” NFL Network’s Mike Lombardi said Friday. “Brandon Marshall is a run-after-the-catch receiver. He’s not a vertical, outside-the-numbers guy. He’s going to catch the ball in a crowd, so they need someone out there to help Marshall separate the defense."


    What is Lombardi's problem? Doesn't he know we already have Brian Hartline & Marlon Moore?

    FYI, here's the full article http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/02/25/2086166/heading-into-nfl-draft-miami-dolphins.html.
     
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  35. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    This, this, and this again. lol
     
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  36. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Honestly, I see a near Brandon Marshall clone with him in virtually every aspect of his play: his size, length, strength, athletic ability, agility, elusiveness, toughness, balance, body control, competitiveness, swaggar, ability to take over a game, determination once he has the ball, hands to make the tough grab........ the whole nine yards...... only I see Little having slightly better top end speed while being 2 inches shorter.

    Greg's ready to play. He spent his offseason training MMA to get into better shape for the NFL, and at 231lbs he says he's in the best shape of his life. We might need to land a 2nd rounder to get him though b/c he's gonna blow up the combine. He's a man among boys, and if push came to shove, I'd even contemplate using a late 1st on him if we traded back to ensure that we don't lose him (even though people will say I'm crazy). That still allows for Daniel Thomas at RB (who is a playmaking stud in his own right) and a top Olineman or maybe Colin Kaepernick. Our offense becomes massively upgraded in the playmaking department, with FA still left to address the other needs.


    Here are Marshall's highlights in case no one has ever watched them. Notice the play at the 2:52 mark, and that's Greg Little. Watching this video should be a reminder as to what our priorities on offense should be. Brandon is OUR GUY. The focal point of this offense should be about finding ways to get him the ball in space so he can destroy defenses. He's one of the elite playmakers in the NFL if he has the room to make plays (and if Daboll and Sparano allow & encourage us to take more risks downfield).

    [video=youtube;MgEYUZaUItk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgEYUZaUItk[/video]


    How awesome would that be to have "The Freak" and "The Beast" playing together!!!! There couldn't be a better guy for Little to learn from than Marshall b/c of Brandon's work ethic and similarity of play. Not to mention, Little would push the heck out of Brandon from a competition aspect. I'd draft Greg for that aspect alone (that these guys would bring out the best in each other).


    [video=youtube;VRKB-KIQMg4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRKB-KIQMg4[/video]


    Highlights of UNC's 2009 Bowl Game. Little tears it up. Notice the catch at the 1:00 mark (This is incomplete to Hartline or Bess).... and the RIDICULOUS TD grab at 1:48 (with even a Brandon'esque punt. lol). Can we say "redzone" threat. Sorry, Hartline, but you don't make those plays my friend, which is why you need to be bumped by a guy who CAN make em.
    [video=youtube;CaEyxF-iURE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaEyxF-iURE[/video]



    Little interviewed tremendously well at the combine. I'm extremely impressed.


    [video=youtube;9tMLq_FMfQU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tMLq_FMfQU[/video]
     
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  37. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    GM, as an ex QB, whom would you personally rather be throwing to if you had Henne's exact skill set?...... Little?..... or Hartline?
     
  38. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    As has been the issue with this offense for years...we have no play-making, game breaker. Bess and Hartline are fine receivers. neither are game breakers. That is what Ginn was supposed to be . Alas, that didn't work out and then they unceremoniously dumped him, taking our returner and our one speedster out of the offense. Marshall is a great receiver, but is the ONLY person on the O that any other D even looks at. Brown and Williams are nice backs, but neither are a threat to break a big run. Fasano is serviceable at best, but certainly not a TE one to bust the seams with. Whether Henne can get the ball to any of the above is debatable, however is still immaterial at this point, as no one else really scares any D...

    I whole-heartedly agree that a speedy WR or seam-busting TE is what this O needs, craves if you will and does not have at this point. Drafting someone would be a welcome relief for most fans....
     
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  39. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Nice post.

    Good point...... and that should be something that Mr. DeepPockets has professed to Ireland & Co. With our celebrity ownership and desperate need to fill the stands and bring life to the organization, playmakers and some added electricity should be priority #1.

    I don't think the WR even needs to be speedy provided that he's a threat to make plays downfield ala Greg Little. Miami needs to be a happening team, and we can't achieve that with a boring, possession based offense. If Ross wants his property value to increase, then bring in guys who excite fans and fill the stadium.

    Not many people would like this draft, but how about if we trade back and grab Kyle Rudolph, Greg Little, and Daniel Thomas? Now we have our seambusting TE, extra playmaking WR, and playmaking #1 RB...... whom all have potential to become stars in the NFL if their ability is maximized.
    Marshall---- Bess/Hartline----- Rudolph----- Little....... with Thomas & Ahmad Bradshaw in the backfield....... maybe Owen Marecic as the FB of the future...... and Tyrod Taylor as the offensive Xfactor. That potential is exciting to me. Henne could make that work, and if not, then pieces would be in place to aggressively pursue a top QB in 2012.
     
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  40. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    For me, there are 4 things I want in a WR.

    1. Separation/Precise routes. I want sudden (shin splint inducing lol) cuts than I can see in my peripheral vision. When your hips drop, the ball is coming out. No pun intended. No choppy steps that tip off the CB, no rounding off routes. And consistency, running the route the same way each time.

    2. Catch radius. Does it have to be in the right spot & right velocity in order for a guy to catch it? I hated that. Sometimes you have to throw high to get it over the LB, or low b/c the safety is closing fast. Obviously size matters here, but ball skills are even more important IMO.

    3. 50-50 balls. Can I throw you the ball even when you're covered w/o worrying that I'll be picked off? And will you come down with enough balls or P.I.s to make it worth the effort? Marshall is one of those rare guys who is 90% win or draw on jump balls. His body size gives him natural separation so even when he's covered he's open. Unfortunately Henne never seemed to figure that out and just throw it up for him.

    4. Playmakers. Can you take a short pass and turn it into a big play on your own? In two seasons, how many times has Henne thrown a short pass that the WR took for a big gain? Hartline had one vs Nawlins but that was vs an all out blitz w/ single high man behind it. And he got run down by Tracy Porter. Bess is good for additional 5-15 yds, Marshall was normally surrounded whenever he caught the ball. Ronnie and Ricky were a joke. Fasano had the TE screen in Green Bay but he didnt have to evade anyone. Basically we had no one to go deep to, and no one who could turn a short pass into a big gain either. Double suckage.

    I like Little on #2, 3, 4 over Hartline. He looks like a guy who can go to the house w/ a short catch, especially if he's manned up. He attacks the ball, going over the CB if necessary. My only question is route running. I agree w/ what you said earlier, Little has the potential to be a beast IF he learns how to run routes and diagnose coverages. He is a natural born playmaker and he's a guy who can hurt you on screens, reverses, kick returns etc, in addition to running traditional routes as a WR. At 230 lbs he may even be able to run some WC or play in the slot. If he runs anywhere under 4.5 he's going on the man crush list.
     
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