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Lex Hilliard: 2011 Feature Back?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Hurricane, Mar 7, 2011.

  1. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That is ignoring the point. Miami was in those games. In games against good teams. They were not blown away to the point where the team is horrible.
     
  2. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    IMO the NFL talent across the board is close enough that any team good enough to go 7-9 is probably good enough to go 12-4 with the right bounces. IMO we had far more bounces go against us last year than for us. Just looking at the interceptions alone, it seemed that every DB turned into Larry Fitzgerald when catching INTs against us and our DBs turned into Ginn when trying to catch INTs for us. I would guess that if our opponents and our DBs both got closer to the league averages for INTs caught/dropped that alone would have moved us to 10 or 11 wins. Throw in the blown call in the Pitt game and we're at 12-4. Also I expect that we should face an easier schedule next season so I disagree that there's no way we could be 12-4 next season and that's before factoring in any defensive development. I'm not predicting that we'll be 12-4. I'm just saying that I''ve watched the NFL long enough to know that getting a 5 game turnaround from one season to the next based just on luck and an easier schedule is a very common occurrence.
     
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  3. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Two words: Arian Foster. More: LeGarrette Blount, LeSean McCoy, Pierre Thomas, Mike Goodson, James Starks.

    Running back is fungible. Get some guys with halfway decent burst and good vision and you’re set.
     
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  4. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    I'm not sure what your point is?

    They weren't getting consistently blown away in 2007, either. They lost 8 games by 10 points or less. Does that mean they weren't the worst team in the NFL that year?
     
  5. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    IMO you cant compare the fumbles and INTs equally. Neither Ricky nor Ronnie were stripped, they took routine hits and the ball popped out. OTOH, Wake beats a double team and strips Favre from behind, leading to a Misi TD. That's Miami making a play, not Miami getting a bounce. Jason Allen had two picks, both of which he had near perfect coverage and was in better position to make a play than the WR. Dansby and Carpenter stoned Peterson in the hole, nothing fluky about that. AP was turning bad blocking into good yards all game long, something our backs never do. By the end of the game he was gassed, even more so than our defense was. Vontae was beaten and got a lucky bounce when Harvin couldn't make the catch, I will surrender that point. Overall, we almost blew the game, but I think its a major stretch to say we were "lucky" that day.
     
  6. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Then in 2008 they went 11-5.
     
  7. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Foster was in the spread, Blount had character problems and can he do it 2 yrs in a row, McCoy, like Foster, benefitted from a passing game, as did Starks, in fact only Blount maybe a true Tailback.

    Thomas shredded his ankle.

    Only one of the backs you named could in any way be called a Feature Back, most took handoffs from the shotgun with the defense spread out.

    Oh, and they all worked with far better Qb's than Chad Henne.

    And BTW, why did the Colts draft Addai with a #1 pick when they had Peyton Manning already? Does one suppose they learned something about the whole "you don't need a running back" stuff? Stealers took Mendenhall with a #1.



    Every position is fungible.

    -Vince Young
    -Russell

    Etc.
     
  8. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    I wasn’t trying to name feature backs, padre. I’m saying you don’t need a feature back at all, and that achieving 1000 yards rushing is not that big a deal these days. Thus why I listed those specific players: it’s evidence.

    Good luck with that.
     
  9. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    Well, if we're fortunate enough to get a 97.4 QBR out of our signal caller this upcoming season, then you might have a point.
     
  10. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Does a team have to have a QB with a rating of 97.4 to win over 10 games?
     
  11. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    10? You're already on record for 12 this season up-thread with some minor additions.
     
  12. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Add in an injured Tom Brady, NFL record turover margin & an all time easiest schedule then you'd really have a point.
     
  13. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    Not to go off on a tangent here, but I really don't understand the schedule knock as it relates to the 2008 season. If you take a look at the schedule that year, we lost both of our non-common games (Baltimore and Houston). Basically, everyone we beat was on the Patriots, Jets and Bills' schedule.

    Was the schedule easy? You bet your *** it was. But it was a cupcake for the entire division and no one won more games than Miami.
     
  14. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Wow do you stay on point?
     
  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Similarly, a few ball bounces that go the wrong way, and we're staring at a 4-12 record. Favre doesn't fumble in the end zone and give us a freebie, we lose. How many things needed to go our way in that Packers game, otherwise that's one for the L column?

    It slices both ways. Sure, we lost 3 games by less than a touchdown. But we also won 4 games by less than a touchdown, and any of those games could have turned on one play. If you look at it that way, Miami could have been anywhere from 3-13 to 10-6 this year. But I think asking for all the breaks to go our way and be 10-6 is just as unrealistic as asking all the breaks to go against us and be 3-13.
     
  16. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I am not disagreeing with the both ways.

    Miami had a lot of breaks go their way when they went 11-5.
     
  17. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Totally agree.

    I said the same thing in another post about Hilliard being in a similar situation to Wake being stuck behind JT & JP. I'm with you on that CK. I think this fits in to their whole "scared, conservative, make-no-mistakes mindset"...... so they stay with the "proven" guy as you said b/c they don't have the gall to take a chance on someone who doesn't have a track record yet.

    I don't mind Lex at all. Like Pods stated, most of Lex's issues can be coached away. IMO he has the tools to work with.
    He has the size and strength..... and the attitude, desire, and heart to go with it. He's a lunch pail type guy who leaves it all on the field, and with Lex we know we're getting 100% from him on every snap.

    He doesn't have a good 2nd gear, but his burst to and through a hole is better than Ronnie's or Ricky's.

    There's an initial quickness to his game, and that's evidenced by his impressive 36' vertical, 10"3' broad jump, and 1.56 10 yard split.

    His shuttle & 3 cone are also extremely good at 4.03 & 6.93 (proday). 4.03 is good for the 3rd FASTEST RB time at the combine since 2005 (sproles- 3.96). That's a 0.63 difference between his shuttle and 40 time, which is another indication of good explosion. It means that he's much more explosive than he is fast, which makes his poor top end virtually meaningless. 6.93 is faster than Ryan Williams, Ingram, Shane Vereen, and Jordan Todman.

    When you factor in his size, the guys a bowling ball going through the line if there's a slight seam or if he can run behind his pads better. He has a very low center of gravity, so if he can play low, then he's gonna plow a lot of defenders.

    The underlying talent and measurables are definitely there for him to be a decent back IMO. He has good instincts, field awareness, and vision. His COD ability and body control & balance are solid. He's quick to find a running lane and burst through it. Watch his highlight video and you can tell he has loose hips..... and you can also tell that when he's at the second level, he's gonna win a lot of 1 on 1 battles. I pity the safety who has to come up and take him on at full steam.

    If we're going to more 3+ receiver sets to keep Bess in the slot, then Lex would be a very good fit. He has the size, lower body strength, and short area quickness to gain yards in a spread out field w/o a lead back...... and IMO he's the kind of guy who can provide us that much-needed consistent 3-4+ yards on 1st down. He has the hands and ability out of the backfield to be pose as a dual threat. He has the agility, balance, and enough wiggle to be effective in space on dump-offs and screens IMO. He's a decent blocker in the passing game. When you add it all up, he's not elite in any of the areas, but good enough in all the areas to be an effective part of a 1-2 punch.


    I'll post his highlights again for anyone who's yet to see it. He's not as tragic as people are making him out to be. When I watch his college film, I see more talent & potential than a lot of the guys some of us are wanting from the 2011 draft. Just sayin.

    [video=youtube;nMWZpM0TxbI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMWZpM0TxbI[/video]
     
  18. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Pats lost Brady, Favre had a bum shoulder. No one had seen a Henning offense in years, the WC caught everyone off guard. IMO we were the 3rd best team in the division even in 2008. But as they say, on any given Sunday.
     
  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    And given the talent level and production they've shown in their careers, this strikes you as "unlucky", or just par for the course? There was nothing "unlucky" about that. In fact I account it unnaturally lucky that Jason Allen gave us that performance in the Vikings games without which we'd have surely lost. Play that game 10 times and see if we win it 5 or more of them. The Vikings went in with the mindset that they were going to pick on Jason Allen, and for some wholly unnatural, cosmically-unnerving reason, he decides that for one game in his entire career he's going to play like a professional football player, had the best game I've seen a Miami corner have since the days of Sam Madison and Pat Surtain.

    And if Favre doesn't fumble in the end zone and give us a free TD, do we beat them?

    Difference being, Santonio Holmes didn't drop many of those "sure TD" passes during the year, or in his career. Sean Smith has been dropping would-be interceptions non-stop since he arrived in Miami.

    BINGO. We have a winner. A penalty flag you probably didn't see fly 5 times the whole season across all 256 games, goes flying to the field on that play, allowing us to continue driving for that final TD. And the replay shows that the guy was RIGHT on the borderline of violating that rule, we're talking inches not feet.

    You mean that extraordinarily rare instance of Chad Henne throwing a deep ball on target to a man in stride? Given his proclivities toward under/overthrows on those deep balls, I wouldn't account the rare instance of his actually hitting his man in stride but the man not quite getting two feet in before going out of bounds, as particularly "lucky" or "unlucky". The bad luck associated with a premium player like Marshall not getting two feet in does not outweigh the good luck of Chad Henne finally throwing a deep ball on target for once.

    You ever hear "you are what your record says you are?" Miami wasn't assaulted with bad luck over and over again this year. They absolutely won some games they could have lost if things didn't bounce quite as luckily as they did. They absolutely lost a few games that could have gone another way if not for a little luck added or subtracted here and there.
     
  20. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Seriously, if anyone hasn't seen his college highlights, please watch them. The kid is impressive. I'd honestly take him over any of the 2nd tier backs in this draft. He's a GREAT fit for our 3+ WR single back formation. I have no doubt in my mind that he can't have a solid 1000+ yard rushing/350+ receiving season for us.
     
  21. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Heh!

    That is like calling Liver "beef", sure, technically it is "beef" the reality is quite different.

    History, recent history points out that it is rare to find a young Qb who made it into a list of top 10 Qb's who did not have a strong Feature Type of back to rely upon.

    Manning: Edge
    Brees: LT
    Rivers:LT
    Brady: Dillon
    Ryan: Turner
    McNabb: Staley, Westbrook etc.


    Now they do outgrow the need for a Feature Type of back, but in their first 3 or 4 seasons, they had a workhorse to rely upon to move the offense.


    Ask Antonio Bryant.
     
  22. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Took a while, but we finally disagree on something :lol:.

    I cant imagine going into the season w/ Hilliard as our number on option. Wake turned out to be a gem, but he was our best pass rusher even in 09, he just want getting the reps. Hilliard has ever flashed any big play capability, he's big he doesn't run big. I like him as a ST guy, a 3rd or 4th RB but I don't want him on the field as a starter or even a backup. Ideally I'd like to have Benson or Williams in FA, then draft two guys one in the 2nd or 3rd and another in the mid to late rounds. Add in Sheets and we've got 5 guys to fight ot out in camp. If Hilliard emerges as the best guy, then so be it. But I cringe at the thought of just handing him the job, or even the backup spot.
     
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  23. FinsAreLife

    FinsAreLife Well-Known Member

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    I think Hilliard would be a great 2nd back but featured? Man if this is the direction the team is going in it will be a long season.
     
  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I definitely agree. During the year I kept saying that I'd love to just go into one of these games just flat out benching Ronnie Brown and Ricky Williams, playing the entire game with Pat Cobbs and Lex Hilliard at tailback, with an actual commitment to the ground game that tended to not be there in home games, just to see what we'd have. I'd be willing to bet that Cobbs and Hilliard would have outperformed Ricky and Ronnie.

    It's interesting that they appear willing to let Cobbs go free. But, first off I'm not so sure they actually will let him go free. I think once free agency hits they'll let him test the market and let the market set his price, then try and come in with a matching offer to see if he wants to be here. But secondly, this Draft does hold a fair number of those slasher types with better speed than Pat, that could get some carries. So they may want to see what they can get in the Draft before circling back with Pat.

    I believe Miami could go an entire year with Lex and Pat being the primary two tailbacks, and not be much worse off (if any) than they were in 2010 with Ricky and Ronnie. The situation was, IMO, as you said and as I said as well, very similar to when Jason Taylor and Joey Porter were serving as reputable drain clogs at the OLB position. We go with a guy everyone swears is too one-dimensional in Cam Wake, and a true rookie (not even a 1st rounder), and we were LEAGUES better at the OLB position in 2010 as opposed to 2009.

    My plan at the tailback position would indeed be to have Lex Hilliard take a step up, be one of the two guys rotating at the tailback position, and then either to draft someone you like, maybe you make that a "slasher" type that you feel complements Hilliard, or maybe you just go with someone you genuinely like, like a Delone Carter...and if you strike out that way and don't get a guy you feel can immediately contribute, you start investigating the free agent market including Pat Cobbs, but also a guy I like Michael Bush.
     
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  25. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Keep in mind though, Peyton Hillis was an oft injured "receiving" back out of the backfield in Denver, he wound up in Cleveland in a giveaway deal for Brady Quinn, and was third on the depth chart when TC started behind Jerome Harrison (keep an eye on that name) and Montario Hardesty.

    Daboll saw something in Hillis and he went berserk, to me Hillis's skill set is not that much different than Lexxy's though Hillis is probably a better athlete, Lexxy as good a Receiver out of the backfield, so don't write him off just yet.
     
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  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    That's a little unfair for a guy that has only had 23 carries the last two years, none of them in 2010. And on the contrary, some of that damage he did against Carolina as a runner was very interesting. He only had 4 carries that game, but he gained 24 yards and created 5 missed tackles along the way. That's what you're looking for, those young fresh legs that can make guys miss and create yards. We didn't have that in 2010.

    You look at the fact that Hilliard has created 8 missed tackles in 23 rushes...that's a really nice ratio. So is 2.9 yards per carry after contact. Isn't that the kind of thing we used to say that Cam Wake was a premium pass rusher in the making? Looking at the ratio of his pressures on the QB compared with the number of pass rush snaps he had? Wasn't that our early indicator that we actually had a horse sitting in the stables that needed to be let loose? In 44 touches, Lex Hilliard has made 9 people miss. Only LeGarrette Blount had a better ratio this year.

    It's not like Lex didn't make people miss in college, or didn't play well. He did. And he's played pretty well so far as a pro, plus done everything we've asked on special teams, getting out onto the field as a blocker, etc. And when asked to come out there and carry the ball, he's done well at that too.

    I think he should be a big part of the plan. There's no sense trying to start over at the position and go overboard adding all new names when you've still got a guy that's shown some potential sitting in the stables unridden.
     
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  27. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Point taken. But its not like we were up against Kelly, Reed, Lofton, Thomas & McKeller in that game. Trent Edwards is garbage and IMO it's not luck that we were in position on those plays. Vontae took Edwards to the house in 09, IIRC, the only time he's ever come close in two years.


    If Cam Wake doesn't beat a double team and STRIP Favre, then the fumble never happens. That's a Miami player making a great play, not a Vikings player handing us a lucky break. Wake was beating Loadholt and on top of Favre for much of the game actually, so it was hardly a random occurrence. Ronnie and Ricky OTOH were just two guys not taking care of the ball. They were not stripped or hit unbelievably hard, they just coughed up the ball.

    Good point. But IMO dropping 5 INTs in one game is more rare than dropping one TD. Also, the ONLY aspect of the game where Henne is elite is in not fumbling. He was tied w/ Manning for 0 lost fumbles in 09, and IIRC he had two this year. Yep, in that one game, he had 2 lost fumbles, the only 2 lost fumbles of his entire career. One of which was a fumbled snap while we were in position to at least take a 13-3 lead. Could we have lost that game? No doubt we could have. Could we also have won by three scores? Absolutely.

    IMO that may have been a make up call after the botched replay on Ronnie's 4th and 1 play. Or perhaps our coaches were in the refs ears about it all game and it paid off late. Other than that, I cant explain why such a bogus call late in the 4th qtr of a close game.

    Henne hit Marshall in stride on the first play of the Minnesota game. The underthrown deep ball in Buffalo was into the wind and still hit BM in the hands. Henne hit Marshall deep vs the Jets as well, though not in stride. My biggest problem wasnt that Henne didnt hit Marshall in stride, Marshall doesnt run by people much anyway. My issue was Henne not giving Marshall a deluge of 50/50 balls and trusting Marshall to make a play or draw a foul. Back to Green Bay though, Henne has played well vs man throughout his entire career, its zone that he's struggled with. I don't think its a surprise that he played well or that he hit Marshall on that play. He was on target for most of the day, and he typically had a ton of time in the pocket. We cant say Henne sucks for not hitting guys deep, and then when he does hit them say, Henne sucks for not normally hitting them. I mean we could say that, but its kinda like scapegoating.

    Absolutely, and I agree. I just think that the games we were "lucky" to win (at Buffalo/Minnesota/GreenBay/NY) were games where we outplayed the opponent anyway. Meanwhile there were games we lost where we were not necessarily out played (NY, Cle,Det, Buff, Pitt). It wasn't bad luck at all, it was failing to finish routine plays that cost us those games. Hopefully we'll revert back to the mean this season.
     
  28. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

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    the next dimension
    Good news is, if they do move to an 18 game season, Hilliard may get 1,000 yards :lol:


    Who needs YPC
     
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  29. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    You're right, it is unfair. I won't deny that at all. Wake blossomed when give the starting job, as did Clemons and Soliai so there is a precedent there. My concern is the risk that we'll be stuck w/ an inconsistent run game and an inconsistent QB once again. We're kinda stuck w/ Henne this year, but we can at least add some known quantities to the running game.

    IMO, for our offense to be a strength, we need more than just a decent back. We need good-great-elite. If Hilliard turns out to fit the bill then I'll happily admit I was wrong while we run roughshod over the league w/ Benson-Hilliard-Leshoure-Hunter a la the 08' Giants w/ Jacobs, Ward and Bradshaw. Having 3-4 good backs is a great problem to have, we could trade one for picks, or keep them all fresh and hungry for December & January. In the scenario I proposed, only 1 of the guys would have a salary over 1 million (Benson) so as a group they wouldn't be much more expensive than the group we had this past season. The only risk would be in the opportunity cost of the draft picks we spend. Perhaps we miss on the seam buster TE or the WR we were coveting. IMO its a small price to pay when the reward is a return to the top 5 in rushing.
     
  30. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Most of what you said I see as a bunch of positioning. When a lucky bounce goes one way it's deserved but when it goes another way it's not, that sort of thing. The one thing I'll address is this. We clearly outplayed the Buffalo Bills, on that we can agree. And I thought we kind of outplayed the Packers though that was a little more even.

    But in what way did we outplay the Minnesota Vikings, except on the scoreboard? They had 22 first downs to our 12. They gained 364 yards to our 226. They ran 72 plays to our 46. Their average gain per play was 5.1 to our 4.9. They ran for more yardage, they possessed the ball 36 minutes to our 24 minutes. They outplayed us. Everyone gets sacks. Not every time you get a sack does the ball happen to squirt out, or your team happens to fall on it. That was the margin in the game.

    Similarly, how did we outplay the Jets? They gained 14 first downs (which is bad in itself) to our (putrid) total of 6. They gained 280 yards to our 131 yards. They possessed the ball 34 minutes to our 26 minutes. They gained 3.5 yards per play to our 2.3 yards per play. We didn't outplay them, we won. We caught some breaks and we won.

    We were what our record says we were. We were 7-9. And every time someone pulls around and starts claiming we were this, this and this away from going 10-6, then sure enough to be fair someone has to point out that we were this, this, this and that away from 3-13. That's just the way it is. Miami wasn't star-crossed this year. They were just not very good.
     
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  31. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    How do you propose we get hold of Leshoure AND Hunter? And why would Cedric Benson sign up after we just drafted those two?
     
  32. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    You might get a lot of hoohing and hawing from the masses, but IMO that's an excellent post and is most likely what we'll try to do. I agree 100% that Lex and Pat wouldve had a better season than Ronnie and Ricky.

    I'd like to see another big dual purpose back to spell Lex in order to provide quality continuity, and add in a slasher like you mentioned. How are Delone's hands, Chris?

    Personally, I'm stuck between a playmaking slasher like Taiwan and a bigger every down dual threat like LeShoure or Daniel Thomas. Having Lex makes me lean towards Taiwan, but I keep flip-flopping. Grrr. Thoughts?

    How would our ground game look with Harvey Dahl at RG, Richie at C, Pouncey at LG..... And Lex & Taiwan at RB?
     
  33. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    The same way we got Davis & Smith. Or Pat's White & Turner. LT went to the Jets, T Jones went to the Chiefs. Lots of guys except lesser roles when thery are on the back 9 of their careers. Maybe Benson wants 300 carries for the next two 2-3 yrs, or maybe he'd rather have 200 carries/yr for the next 5-6 yrs. Who knows? I'm just throwing possible names out there. What's important IMO is to bring in a Vet who has proven he can tote the rock and then a couple rookies that we can groom and hopefully make the Vet expendable in a year or two. The Panthers had Williams even before they took Stewart at 13, and Goodson in the 3rd (IIRC) and they're running game was borderline dominant when they were healthy. In the absence of a top tier QB, I think that's our best option.
     
  34. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Personally I feel Benson has lost a step and I'd feel better about Lex and a rookie that I would Cedric as the main back.

    Hey GM.................. :tongue2:
     
  35. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    I agree in principle, but Benson never had a step.
     
  36. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    In a word, soft. He's got sweet hands for a running back. He's not the pass catching specialist that an Alex Green of Hawaii is, but he's what you could want outside of that. I think the fact of the matter is, Delone is a premium tailback prospect. That position tends to be a roll of the dice because of the durability issue, anyway.

    It's not that I don't like Taiwan Jones, I just don't necessarily buy him doing what he did at Eastern Washington at the next level. I think he and DeMarco Murray are similar. But Murray is a lot less risky because he did what he did against much better defenders. I think Taiwan is a little bit more of a gamble than a lot of the guys you could go with.

    I'm a 'no comment' on Mike Pouncey at #15. And I can't speak to Harvey Dahl because A) We don't know that he'll be a free agent as the new CBA is going to cover a lot of areas including how many years of restricted free agency before a guy becomes an unrestricted free agent, B) I haven't really ever watched him.

    There are a number of backs I would steer toward in the Draft. If you think you're getting Carson Palmer in trade, then I think Mark Ingram is a guy you steer toward at #15, because he's very close to a sure thing and if your QB is 31 years old then you need sure things, as time becomes a factor...every year counts. Plus, Palmer has always been a guy that is far more deadly when complemented well by a ground game, than when not...I think a little more so than most other QBs. Outside of that, I like Kendall Hunter, Daniel Thomas, Jordan Todman, Delone Carter, Bilal Powell, Dion Lewis, Allen Bradford, Brandon Saine and Johnny White. Not that I dislike the others, I just have a pretty clear vision for those guys on my team.

    If you want guys that are big threats in the passing game, you don't get much better than Brandon Saine and Johnny White in that category...and you can get either of those guys CHEAP. I'd include Alex Green there, and I do like him, but something I saw at Shrine practice really scared me about him. First off he gets in the game and he definitely screwed the pooch there, you become known as a fumbler, that will stick with you. But in practice, it would not at all be an exaggeration to say that he was absolutely atrocious in blitz pick-up drills. And that scares me because it points to a lack of physicality. He was trying, he was just clueless. He'd be too passive about it and get rocked, so then he'd try and stick his nose in and whiff. It was like watching a dog get up and try and play the piano, just didn't seem natural. Johnny White and Brandon Saine intrigue me because they are probably two of the most suave pass catching tailbacks in the Draft, but they've also done things that intrigue me about their blocking prowess, and Special Teams contribution.
     
    ToddsPhins likes this.
  37. finserg

    finserg Well-Known Member

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    Please noooooo
     
  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    That's the problem, you're throwing names out there and I'm trying to get you to think deeper about them. You have to look at details. When Thomas Jones signed on with the Chiefs, they had Jamaal Charles, but nobody else worth noting. If you're a starter and you've been a starter, you're looking for a team where you get into the top two in the pecking order because most teams share anyway. Charles being the only guy there left a spot for Jones. And when LaDainian Tomlinson signed on with the Jets, they had Shonn Greene, who was still untested, and so LaDainian had to be thinking he could even supplant him in the pecking order (which he did). So the question is, does free agency happen before or after the draft? If it's after, and Miami just drafted Kendall Hunter and Mikel LeShoure, why does Cedric Benson come to a town where they already just drafted two significant backs?

    And also, how do you propose we get LeShoure and Hunter? The reason I ask is both of them are currently projected to go around the 2nd and 3rd round area. Miami doesn't have a 2nd round pick.
     
  39. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Semantics perhaps, but I see a difference between a guy making a play (Wake's sack/FF) and Ronnie & Ricky just putting the ball on the ground. Vontae's INT was absolutely a lucky play, but Jason Allen had excellent coverage on both his picks, I don't call those luck at all. If you want to say we were lucky, you could say that Sid Rice didn't he play in the game. But 9 other teams could say the same.

    Again, forcing turnovers is huge. Just as, if not more important than yardage, first downs, T.O.P. etc. We had a FF/FR for a TD, two INTs literally on our own goal line, a GL stand, and a final stop just outside the red zone to close out the game. Carpenter stoned AP on the 1 yd line, Dansby and Vontae stoned him again on the next play. Sean blanketed Shiancoe on the final 4th down. That's not Minnesota handing us breaks, that's our defense making plays. We were up 14-0 with the ball late in the 3rd, crowd totally out of the game, us totally in control. Ricky fumbles and suddenly we're in a dogfight. I take pride in giving credit to the opponent when its due, but IMO we let Minnesota back into that game with unforced errors, when we could easily have walked outta there with a relatively easy win.

    Again, turnovers. 2nd series. Misi draws a penalty to force 3rd and long. Misi pushes D'Brick into Sanchez' face (Wake had pressure also) forcing a poorly thrown ball which Carrol intercepts, leading to 3 points. Next series, Wake blows up a WC play to force another 3rd and long, then Langford blindsides Sanchez forcing a fumble which led to a Moses recovery and a Marshall TD. For the rest of the game Brandon Fields flipped the field for us and the defense was stellar. You can point to the Holmes drop, and there were several others by the Jets. But Sean dropped 5 of them, Henne fumbled a snap in FG range. Like ours, their points came on TOs, except our TO's were due to blown protections and QB/center exchanges, not a man just whipping the man across from him. It's hard to make the case that the Jets' "gave" us anything, or that we were lucky to win. Like the Buffalo and Minnesota games, we could have lost, but we could have easily won by 2 scores as well.

    I think we're splitting hairs b/c I don't disagree with any of that. We were not a good team at all. Couldn't finish plays on defense, couldn't finish drives on offense, sucked on ST, couldn't run it, couldn't throw it consistently, couldn't stay healthy, got out coached most weeks on offense. Yet we were a handful of plays from 10-11 wins, so maybe we don't have to blow up our offense and build it around Cam Newton after all :lol:.
     
  40. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Again, in your explanations I see the same things over and over. When we make a play, it's deserved. When they make a play, it's luck. I don't agree with that. Sack-strips are earned but forcing fumbles out of our running backs are not? I don't agree with that. We earned a victory through turnovers, but when turnovers happened to us...that's luck. I don't agree with that. Jason Allen playing better than he has at any point in his career, better than he ever will play again, is totally earned, luck has nothing to do with it...I don't agree with that.

    Let's just agree to disagree.
     

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