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Mel Kiper: Dolphins Draft Qb reality

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Mar 10, 2011.

  1. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thed...o-dont-have-time-to-develop-another-young-qb/

    Kevin Kolb is not very good.

    This is more or less the reality of the situation, and I really am not a Kiper fan, but this is obvious, drafting a Qb this time around makes very little sense..in this situation.

    The ugly fact is Coaches and GM's who take a Qb "for the good of the franchise" rarely stick around long enough to see them develop, from Manning to Rodgers, the people who drafted them were fired shortly thereafter.
     
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  2. CashInFist

    CashInFist Well-Known Member

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    Kiper will change his opinion in a few days, like he does all of his draft prospects.
     
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  3. Shamboubou

    Shamboubou Well-Known Member

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    I can't even imagine the chaos that would ensue if we traded everything away for Kolb and Henne beats him out in training camp to be the starter. I'm still just not sure what people see in Kolb?? Somebody please explain why Kolb could be the answer, other than because ESPN says he's a big name FA.
     
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  4. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    The situation will not have changed though CiF, lacking a #2 and being on the Watch List does not equate to "draft a Qb" anyway you look at it.

    Now the more radical option is "what if Ross means to honor those extensions"?

    That would be great for him, and the franchise imho, it would allow them to draft a Qb at #15 without the peril of doing so and being fired.

    I am an unabashed Fist Pumper fan, and yes I'm well aware of his shortcomings, to me we are ascending and will have a playoff caliber season "if" the proper moves are made this offseason.
     
  5. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Sam Bradford, Tim Tebow to a lesser extent, Aaron Rodgers to a lesser extent (he was immediately good once he came off the bench after 3 years of waiting), Matt Stafford, Matt Cassell to a lesser extent, maybe even include Tom Brady in this group as well.

    There’s a growing expectation leaguewide that rookies should be able to play and play well, even rookie QBs. Drafting a QB doesn’t necessarily mean waiting four years for the guy to be good.
     
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  6. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Suspect he is just throwing names out there, I'd heavily doubt we trade the #15 straight up for Kolb and that is assuming there is a CBA in place to allow such a trade in the first place, if the draft goes by and there is no Kolb then the Eagles would be highly unlikely to trade him.
     
  7. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Do the names:

    -Turner
    -Rice
    -Jackson

    Ring any bells? They all were running backs that could move the offense and take pressure off of the above named Qb's.


    What does "win or be fired" mean to you?
     
  8. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    A free agent, a second round pick, and a rare featured back. Tells me the Phins can avoid RB until later and still get quality production.
     
  9. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

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    I think he brings up a good point .This is a lame duck regime and they are more likely to draft someone one who can help them next year especially on offense than to draft a QB who will not fully develop until after they are fired.

    By the same token I think a top notch RB like Ingram seems like the likely pick given that RBs dont need much time to be ready to start .

    It would not be my choice but it seems like the most logical pick.
     
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  10. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    Philly would be dumb as rocks to get rid of him, even for the # 15 pick in the draft. Mike Vick is one dumb move from going back to jail & you never know what will happen injury wise, especially as recklessly as Vick can play. Kolb is cheap this year, costing only about $ 1,500,000 which is not bad for a backup QB with a few years under his belt. I don't think he is on the market unless its the #15 + a starter at a position of need for Philly.
     
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  11. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    CT I think you are right, its Ingram if he is there, but this is nothing but Ronnie Brown 2.0. If they do draft Ingram I don't think RB is back with us and we know that RW is 99% gone, so we're looking at two new running backs no matter what happens in the draft. This is going to be facinating to watch, to see these two (Ireland & Sparano) operate this year. I don't think they can do it. Color me skeptical.
     
  12. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    It's a tough spot to be in. Ross obviously has his doubts about Tony Sparano. And now this regime is tasked with solving our QB problem. Being in a do or die situation puts them in a position where they might not necessarily do what's best for the team in the long run. It's why despite liking Tony, I really wish they had brought someone in who could have had a fresh start. I don't think Tony Sparano and his ra ra fist pumping ways, but seemingly limited Xs and Os, especially on offense is the coach who can develop a young QB. It takes a veteran like Pennington who already knows the ropes to have success with this type of coach.
     
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  13. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Good organizations don't draft scared about their jobs. If these guys are thinking this way we won't go anywhere and they will be fired in year anyhow. We need to draft a Qb regardless of the veteran we pickup, if we go into next season with Henne/Thigpen they might as well start looking for jobs right now. The best we can do with our current Qbs is one and done in the playoffs.
     
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  14. Striking

    Striking Junior Member

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    Who knows what to expect from Teflon Tony. Kevin Kolb does not meet the mobility requirement that Tony's big play commission concluded is the primary component of big pass plays. Nor would his arrival guarantee a playoff appearance. There are a few free agents who are mobile but no one you would risk your career on. I see the team having interest in Alex Smith and Brodie Croyle with some of these more mobile guys being in the mix. I could live with a Henne/Smith/4th round draftee competition next year.
     
  15. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    This is sort of funny though CT, the option that Sparano and Ireland maybe have 2yrs is, of course, not even considered, making this an either/or proposition.

    But even then, the only way taking a Qb at #15 makes sense is if Irish and Sparano feel the team is good enough to make the playoffs as it sits right now, and Getting Odie and Edds back is equal to using the #15 pick.
     
  16. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    As I've said elsewhere, I hate this line of reasoning more than I hate the Jets or Tom Brady, and that's a lot.
     
  17. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Bill Polian drafted Peyton Manning and Ted Thompson drafted Aaron Rodgers; both of whom are still employed with the same team. That might not be the best example to use there.

    It might be better to say that those who select bad quarterbacks as the good of the franchise likely will not stick around long enough. Those that select good quarterbacks have a better chance to stick around.
     
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  18. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    The fact we needed to go and examine where big plays come from tells you how bad it is; even the coaches don't know where they come from.

    Ever wonder where some of our offensive issues came from?
     
  19. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Mora and Lewis however, were long gone, Nolan took Smith, Schotty took Rivers, the only coach who took a Qb high coming off of a bad season who stuck around, Coughlin, managed to win a SB.



    Not so, take a Qb with a high pick and chances are wonderful you will be exiting stage left sooner rather than later, as in 1 yr and out.
     
  20. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    You said coaches and GM's. That's not really exclusive. Didn't Mora have health issues as well?

    So the quality of the player is irrelevant to the conversation? So if I take a quarterback high then the coach has a good chance to leave? Steve Spagnuolo should watch out then as Sam Bradford may be his undoing?
     
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  21. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    GM's to, missing on a Qb is a career killer.

    Yep, quality is somewhat irrelevant, these Coaches are expected to win games, not assemble teams Scouts like.

    Recall the Browns were coming off of a 10-6 season, traded up to draft Brady Quinn, and the owner cleared house the next season, that is how this goes at times, if anything this cranks up the pressure to find ways to get it done aside from having that quality starting Qb as there is no more time to "develop players for the future".

    The future for Irish and Sparano, is now.
     
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  22. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    It was Brady Quinn's fault?
     
  23. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    That is how the NFL works Conu, taking a Qb with a high pick by a regime in kimchi is career o' cide.

    Which is why, it would be better if Ross allowed Sparano 2yrs, but fans want it both ways "we want a Qb with a first rd pick!" then "fire the fist pumper!".
     
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  24. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Why does Harbaugh have job?
     
  25. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Marty wasn't fired because he drafted Phillip Rivers. He was fired because he didn't win the playoff game.
     
  26. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Because he won, he has won all 3 yrs in Baltimore, he inherited a Top 10 Defense and Ozzie Newsome and made the AFC Title game as a first yr HC.
     
  27. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    So him taking a 1st round quarterback wasn't career suicide?
     
  28. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Not for a first yr head coach.
     
  29. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Please tell me you made that up...too funny.
     
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  30. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    I hate to say it, but our best shot at short term success will be with Henne at the helm (weird, sounds like Charles in Charge). I'm banking a lot of this on the post game interview with Aaron Rodgers after the super bowl when he said that it was his second year of being the starter that he really improved.
     
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  31. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I agree, you dont necessarily need to wait several years for a QB to be successful. However, the situation that the QB steps into is very important to whether or not they have success. Give a guy a running game, some playmakers, a defense, and he'll have a good chance to succeed. If you dont give a young QB those things, you're putting the pressure of carrying the team on his shoulders, and only the best will have any success.

    I dont care who we draft at QB, if anyone. If we don't fix the other problems on the offense then there's no point in putting the new QB on the field. And if we do fix the other problems we have on offense, then maybe we wont need a new QB.
     
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  32. Shamboubou

    Shamboubou Well-Known Member

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    As crazy as this does sound, I kind of believe that this could be a good team for a 1st year QB to take over. Honestly if you break it down we have a pretty good setup for a new young QB. We have a very good defense and as good as they were last year in a brand new system they are going to be even better this year with more comfort and knowlege in the system, as well as Nolan's comfort and knowlege about the players. The offense, we have a great WR in Marshall and a great slot reciever in Bess. We have one of if not the best LT in the NFL, Solid O-Line with a little help from FA. A good RB from FA or the draft and I feel like we have a pretty solid team for a young talented QB.

    More than anything it just boils down to what QB you get. You can get Flacco or Ryan in the 1st round, or you can end up with Brady Quinn. Bradford came in this year and looked good with a very weak team around him other than Jackson. You just have to find the talent, and we haven't had much luck with that at the QB position in the draft the past decade.

    I personally want to see Henne get a shot in a new offense with the choker collar off and let the guy try and make some plays. I would happily give up some INT's for the opportunity to go downfield more and really open up this offense.
     
  33. Here is how I view our situation. We are screwed!

    What they need to do is show the fans that they got some magic up their sleeves to restore confidence or you will see lots of empty orange seats. Henne is a mess right now and really needs to work with our receivers and on himself this off-season or he is not worth keeping even as a B/U. The challenge in front of him is the likelihood of a lockout and a new OC with a new offensive scheme to learn. These guys can not meet with coaches to learn what is expected of them which means Henne needs to take on a leadership role (which he has not done yet) and organize player practices without coaches. Henne has to take control of this offense and create continuity between them. Personally I do not believe Henne can deliver on that.

    Sign a vet and the problem becomes even worse. He has no relationship with players on the team. He will come in last minute and be expected to learn a new playbook on the fly. It does not sound like a solid formula for winning to me.

    Reach in the draft for a starter QB and then you get a rookie QB who has never played in the NFL and in all likelihood had a short camp to try to learn. The options just get more and more dismal as we go.

    The only realistic thing this staff can do is keep Henne as our starter and hope for the best from it. Keep building the team around him in this draft. Hire a vet QB that maybe mid season will be ready to take over if Henne screws the pooch again. Bring in a developmental QB out of the draft and hope he pans out down the road. It is pretty much the same dumb formula we have not had any success with over the past 5 years since we got rid of Jay Fielder.
     
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  34. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Probably b/c he's done nothing to jeopardize it. Winning probably counts too. lol.
     
  35. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    This. A favorable, thriving situation can make a lot of QBs look good. Conversely, an unfavorable situation can make the best look bad.

    With the greater pressure on rookie QBs to produce immediately <rather than giving them a year or so to sit and develop like they were afforded in the past>, it becomes even more significant to have a somewhat establish offense around him to grow in....... and if it's not quite established, then IMO the rookie QB needs to be someone like a Matt Ryan or Josh Freeman who has some brains, came from a pro style offense, and has a shorter learning curve. I don't see any guys atop this draft who are close to being NFL ready or carrying the burden of struggling offense.
     
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  36. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    exactly
     
  37. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Perhaps, maybe there is a way for FA and trades to still happen.


    WC 2.0 would help, when the WC no longer worked there went Sparano's Mojo.


    Depends, not all Vets are created equal, for example Kerry Collins would have no issues learning the offense, maybe Gradkowski as well.

    Fielder was effectively dumped 6 seasons ago, tbh we have looked for a Qb ever since, maybe Henne comes on, but no way would I count on it, buildup the running game and ST and Defense and for Pete's sake enough with the goofy developmental players like Nalbone.
     
  38. PhinishLine

    PhinishLine Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    All of this is assuming that we are in fact in a "Win Now" mode. We honestly don't know what mode we are in. For all we know, Ross could have said draft a legitimate QB, train im up and you're good. He might have learned from his mistake of wooing Harbaugh.
     
  39. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    You're going to laugh at me, but you know who I've just been watching all night that has surprised the sh-t out of me and can actually play the game of football pretty well?

    Seneca Wallace.

    Not joking. He basically played 3.5 games this year, against the Chiefs, Ravens, Bengals and Falcons. I picked out his Ravens game, toughest defense, figured I'd get right to it and see how bad is 'bad' for him. And you know what? Good. He was good against the Ravens. There were some things he did made me question his intelligence a little, but for the most part he played really well against a tough Ravens defense, and also against the Falcons...damn near perfect for a half against them, before he got hurt thanks to Joe Thomas getting totally bytched by John Abraham on a play just before halftime. Wallace only had one real big mistake against the Falcons but it didn't cost him an interception as it maybe should have. But you see that across the board, every QB has those.

    But you know what the real ***** of it is? A few days ago the Browns agreed to a deal with Seneca for him to come back to Cleveland and be insurance against Colt McCoy.

    That sucks. I'm dead serious based on what I saw he might have been the best veteran QB option I'd watched from 2010. He wasn't playing in a good offense either so it's not like he was made to look good. The kid just showed all kinds of moxie, dodging bullets in the backfield, making big throws, making timely throws off blitz reads, accuracy, etc. The only thing that stood out on the negative was again he'd have a brain fart here and there, and also it looks to me like he's pretty bad with throwing the deep sideline pass...much better over the deep middle.
     
  40. DHPVW

    DHPVW DuB addict

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    I personally think Kiper is just ***, he suggest to go after Kolb?? Like he is proven to be a great qb or something. That's why Philly is looking to trade him and keep an older ex-convict for their starter. Kiper needs to get another job
     

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