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Secret Superstar: Anthony Fasano

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Stringer Bell, Apr 6, 2011.

  1. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Completely agree with you here. It does suck b/c IMO he's the kind of guy you'd like to be your unquestionable dual threat #1 TE. Like Dupree stated-- he still need to do a better job of catching with his hands though.
     
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  2. DHPVW

    DHPVW DuB addict

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    I agree, he tends to use his body too much to catch the ball. I have seen him make good plays with his hands, just needs to be more consistent
     
  3. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Henne back-shouldering him over the middle is still fresh in my mind.

    Fasano's not a master contortionist, but at least he can make a play here and there (which is why I think our TE play would go from a current weakness to a strength if we bring in a guy like Jordan Cameron, Rudolph, or Julius Thomas who can start as the #2 with the potential of becoming the primary TE down the road, at which point we could either <hopefully> re-sign Fasano as the #2 or look for his replacement in the draft).
     
  4. DHPVW

    DHPVW DuB addict

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    last year I was the only person on the forum that I remember that even mentioned Gronkowski's name and look what he did in one year for the Pats. TE is one of the most important parts of an offense if you ask me. They can open so many possibility's in an offense and dictate how the defense plays.

    I personally wouldn't mind picking Rudolph or Kendricks if they fall to us at the right time. Another threat opposite Fasano would be great. More and more teams are using two TE packages these days
     
  5. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I was on the Jimmy Graham train, we passed on both him and Moeaki (Kansas City) to take Jerry. Well.

    This year we may see another bevy of guys in the third - Kendricks, DJ Williams, Jordan Cameron, Julius Thomas etc. Will be interesting to see if we pull the trigger this time.

    Rudolph is a good prospect, but I think 15 is a bit early, and though I'm sure Ireland wants to trade down, it's a volatile market. Shame FA is cut off atm, would have liked to see us pursue Zach Miller if he didn't head back to Oakland.
     
  6. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    We didn’t pass on Jimmy Graham to take John Jerry. The Saints took Graham in the 2nd round.
     
  7. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I'm pretty sure he went bottom third.

    Edit: Unless both NFL.com and wikipedia are wrong, he was picked in the third round at 95 overall.
     
  8. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I, too, was yelling for Gronkowski..... big time! He was my 2nd favorite player of the draft. I was mouthing his & Jhavid Best's name in the 1st after we traded back.
     
  9. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Fasano is what he is, and what he is helps the team. A very good blocker who catches the ball 8 yards downfield and runs for five more helps the offense with his blocking and is also good for first downs catching the ball. Forget the hyperbole; he doesn't need to be a superstar. We got a solid starter who helps the offense two ways for a 4th round pick. We get one with hands and speed now and all we need is a QB. The incompetence of our front office and coaching staff is greatly overstated, because when someone lays an egg we replace him. Patience, Grasshoppers. Rome wasn't built in a day.
     
  10. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    According to PFF, Gonzalez was the 58th ranked run blocking TE in the NFL.

    So no, I wouldn't say Gonzelez is a superstar.
     
  11. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I appreciate the work and effort. I just find it truly funny and ironic how I used the same stats to indicate Mike Sims Walker's ineffectiveness as a deep/downfield threat and they were basically looked right by for other stats...that's neither here nor there though.

    I think Fasano is perfect for the offense. If the Dolphins go for a "seam busting" TE (I love these monikers that fans pick up from the media and run with), it's only because the Dolphins plan to use him completely as a receiving threat. This idea that Fasano is a good "#2" and we this "seam busting" TE will come in and be a downfield "#1" is really just a bunch of cliche talk, IMO.

    Anthony Fasano is a fine starting caliber TE. He does both things well. Is he a gamebreaker? No. I think adding a WR or TE that has the ability to create mismatches with Safeties/LBs will do the offense some good. However, unless that guy has the ability to block, you're not going to see him as an every down player--not in Tony Sparano's image of the offense.

    BTW, I think Anthony Fasano's stats have been grossly affected by Chad Henne's inabilty to throw the ball over the middle of the field, within zone coverage. We all love to point out that David Martin was this guy that helped Anthony Fasano so great, but I think it was Chad Pennington that made him so effective. I think of two throws off the top of my head where Chad Henne missed a wide open Fasano for easy TDs. Better QB play, better statistics from the receiving core.

    I hold Anthony Fasano in high regard, because he is a good player. Superstar, though? I disagree with that.
     
  12. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    There's a joke in there somewhere.
     
  13. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    The beauty of language is hidden in the phrase "I think"
     
  14. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I only scored a 21 on the Wonderlic, maybe that's why I don't make sense of this.
     
  15. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    Yeah, I know, that guy just sucks.
     
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  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He was in my mock the whole time prior to his draft, All pro tight end, wanted him real bad...bummer....correctly projected the player..''stud''..
     
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  17. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    We'll just have to agree to disagree. Our entire offense (as it sits) is the reason we have problems against cover 2. It's not all on Henne. Before the QB can do anything, his personnel has to be able to effectively attack and beat the coverage (unless that doesn't matter to you). If we can clear out the safeties (which we have trouble doing b/c our personnel limits us here, too) then Fasano lined up against an LB doesn't create much of a mismatch in our favor. Personally, I don't want a #1 TE who poses little threat to open up the field or make the big play down the middle.


    Insult to injury,
    Bess has no wheels to threaten the field deep to pull the Safety.
    Ronnie & Ricky had no speed to run a wheel route to threaten the other safety.
    This leaves Marshall & Hartline as our ONLY vertical options (saying that loosely) to draw the Safeties and allow the TE space to get over top the LB. That somewhat kills any aspect of unpredictability. None of this helps our QB (or offense in general) attack a cover 2.


    The other problem with Fasano (and our previous running backs) is versatility and unpredictability with play calling. Watch the following video as an example. Packers-Steelers SB. Packers on offense in a 3-1-1 formation (3 WR, 1 TE, 1 RB). Like many teams can do (except for us), GB lined their TE up outside to create a mismatch with Jennings moved to the slot on the LB <which was the 2nd time last year that GB scored on Pitt from that formation>. Their TEs are good enough to play outside, and their other receivers have enough vertical ability to draw the rest of the coverage, leaving Jennings open for a TD. We have none of this ability, yet people talk about how our overall receiving corps is some great thing.

    [video=youtube;dGg8Wu50k3I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGg8Wu50k3I&feature=related[/video]


    Let's look at another play that our TE, WRs, and previous RBs limit us from running.
    Bears running a 3-1-1 empty backfield. TE, Greg Olsen is lined up off the RT. The #1 receivers, Knoxx & Hester, both run a 5-6 yard hitch (or whip). The #2 receivers in the slot (one is the running back) both run wheel routes to pull the safeties. That leaves Olsen singled on the LB with a soft spot down the seam if Olsen can beat his man. He does, and the result is a TD.

    [video=youtube;5NuWncHzdFg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NuWncHzdFg[/video]

    UNFORTUNATELY, Bess & Ronnie don't scare anyone vertically and don't have the wheels to pull this off........ and if they did, Fasano still has to beat the Mike backer, which means we're not running this play against every team, especially not on 3rd and long.

    There are a lot of plays and formations that we cant run effectively (or at all) thanks to our current group, yet we wonder why our QB struggles.



    I understand you want a #2 TE (rather than an upgraded #1) to help in the passing game, but how is that #2 TE helping when he's on the bench more than he's on the field? If you want to attack coverage, then get a #1 who can do it so that he doesn't have to be taken out of the game to do so. Or how about establishing a ground game that can be effective without needing to prioritize your TE as an extra Olineman, detracting from the passing game in the process. One of the biggest keys to offensive success is unpredictability (which goes hand in hand with versatility). If your #1 TE limits the passing plays you can threaten a defense with, then how does that help you become unpredictable? Oh yeah, that's right--- you sub him out for your #2. You know, we don't always run 2 TE sets to where 1 of the TEs can be the true pass catcher. We'll continue to use more 3 WR sets, which means we need MORE from our #1 TE, or are we just supposed to ignore certain aspects of the passing game while he's in? I don't know about you but I love being predictable. <sarcasm>


    This is why I mentioned drafting a guy like Jordan Cameron who can start out at #2 and groom into a #1 by the time Fasano's contract expires. You act as like nobody else in the world can effectively block as a TE.

    If we took that same empty backfield look from earlier and outfitted it with Jordan Cameron, Mike Sims Walker, and Taiwan Jones instead of Fasano, Bess, and Ronnie, we'd actually be able to run plays out of it and attack a defense for once. Walker & Taiwan pull the safeties leaving the quick Cameron to get behind the LB. And if that's not open, then Marshall has a chance to catch a short pass and turn it into something (I know right---- imagine that!)
     
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  18. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Question is how do you get every player on the offense in their most effective role. Marshall and Bess are both at their best in the slot and Fasano operates in the short passing game, yet we're keeping all three. Only so many players you can put on the field. That said even with the Fasano-3 WR combo Henne was very effective last year. The Lions game was probably the most glaring example where Henne lit the Lions up and then subsequently was terrible with the garbage play calling and formations in the second half. I just can't see Marshall-Bess-Hartline-Fasano-one back being feasible long-term with the lack of speed from that group. Someone needs to threaten over the top other than Hartline.
     
  19. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    That is somewhat misleading as you included many TE's who did not play a whole lot. If you go with those who played on 60% of the team's snaps, Fasano was #8.
     
  20. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Thats not really versatile? Being a TE thats a great receiver but ineffective blocker is the complete opposite of being versatile and allowing for 'unpredictable' play calling. Theres nothing unpredictable about what the Packers do. They send multiple players vertical. By sending multiple players vertical, they eschew protecting their QB. Since their QB has exceptional and rare ability to avoid passrushers, their willingness not to protect him is inconsequential. It really isn't difficult to understand how they operate, and it has little to do with their use of a TE thats much more one-dimensional than Anthony Fasano. That play isn't really much of a good example anyway, because it was nothing more than the QB dropping a ball into a window the size of a basketball hoop, on a play that was pretty well defended.
     
  21. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I would say 25% of the teams snaps is enough to qualify a player as a fixture in the offense. Either way, Fasano ranking 8th in a smaller pool of players isn't indicative of anything that was skew Fasano's YPC numbers.
     
  22. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    As a blocker last season, yes.
     
  23. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    What Fasano did on the field last year is different than what some here are posting. Here's a run down.

    Fasano was thrown to 55 times, catching 39 for 528 yds. His average was 13.5 and YAC was 5.4. He caught 4 TD's, and had 2 drops.

    A closer look.

    Over 20 yds- he caught 3 of 3 for 90 yds.

    10-19 yds- he caught 16 of 18 for 227 yds and 2 TD's

    0-9 yds- he caught 8 of 10 for 80 yds to the right and left. Over the middle, he was only 11 of 20 for 89 yds, 1 TD, and his 2 drops.

    Minus yds- he caught 3 of 4 for 42 yds and a TD.

    Based on fact, he was not catching short passes and running for his average but was catching almost everything thrown his way, other than the short stuff over the middle. Can't say if he was catching with his body or hands, just that he was catching and producing. Aside from the short middle passes, he caught 30 of 35 balls thrown his way with about half thrown over 10 yds.

    This is with him having to block more than he should, no 2nd TE, and Henne's struggles. I thought he was one of our bright spots.
     
  24. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    I have to disagree. 25% is the same as playing full time for only 4 games. It's difficult for me to say those player's averages are the same as another playing full time.

    IMO, it would be the same as a 3rd down RB being better than another who had double the carries in different situations. JMO.
     
  25. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    Here's a little spin to make you think.

    Tony Gonzalez caught 70 of 106 passes for a 9.4 avg, 2.8 YAC, and 6 TD's.

    Dallas Clark caught 37 of 51 passes for a 9.4 avg, 3.7 YAC, and 3 TD's, before being hurt, same number of passes as Fasano.

    However, we had Henne. All those guys had was Peyton and Ryan. :)
     
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  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Those are some interesting stats right there..wow as a matter of fact..
     
  27. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    DJ, I was a little surprised myself in doing the research. The one that really stood out to me was, aside from short stuff over the middle, Fasano caught 6 of 7 passes thrown his way. That's almost like a scripted Pro Day.
     
  28. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    iam not a big hope guy, but the way this offense has been run, by the 2 most important positions, OC, and QB, stats like that give me a bit of hope and clarity amongst all the disfunction, poor play.
     
  29. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I think the context of formations, 25% is reasonable. A lot of #2 TEs are going to be getting around that number. Its not a full time player, but its still enough snaps to get an accurate representation of ability and how they were used.
     
  30. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    Again, I still have to disagree. A second TE could be in on a 3rd and short with a 9 man box, breaks one because of the lack of coverage, and his avg is great.

    Could you give me an example or two of the TE's you're talkin about?
     
  31. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    IMHO, there are a number of "silver linings" to this team. For example, our D was pretty good. IF all these young guys develop, as I believe they will, they will be ABSOLUTELY AWESOME. JMO
     
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  32. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    How is "effectively running an empty backfield formation" out of your base 3-1-1 not versatile? If a defense is in their base 3-4 or 4-3, and the offense has the ability to go from a 5 WR spread to a 3 WR spread with the same personnel, how is that unpredictable? Gotchya, Miami isn't unpredictable but the Packers are. I'd like to ask the Steelers if they agree. Like I said, there are other teams besides the Packers who can run plays like this. Not all of them have TEs who can't block.
    If you want to talk about "unpredictable"---- how about an offense full of possession type players?!
    Wrong. Both times GB scored on this play, the Steelers only brought 4.
    Is 5 on 4 now considered "eschewing QB protection"? I guess maybe in our offense we need 6 or 7 guys to block a 4 man front. You do realize though that Henne is a capable passer against blitz right?


    That play is a fine example. Steelers were beat for an 84 yard TD on virtually the same play earlier in the year, and the Packers STILL came back to the well during the SB. The point is--- they have the personnel to run the play.


    Why do you insist on saying the "TE" has to be an ineffective blocker? Is Fasano the only effective blocking TE on the planet?


    Jeremichael Finley is "much more 1 dimensional"? That's because YOU place more value on run blocking than you do pass catching, so in your opinion a great receiving TE with average blocking skills is one dimension. Others may disagree and feel that a great pass catching TE indirectly helps to open the ground game b/c defenses have to worry about him beating them over the top.
     
  33. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Just for fun, let's look at the top 12 rushing teams and see who their TEs were (& production):

    1. Chiefs: 164 YPG...... Tony Moeacki- 47 catches for 556 yards. (rookie!)
    2. Raiders: 156 YPG.... Zach Miller- 60 for 685. (Oak's leading receiver)
    3. Jaguars: 150 YPG.... Mercedez Lewis- 58 for 700. (2nd in receptions. better receiver than blocker)
    4. Jets: 148 YPG......... Dustin Keller- 55 for 687. (Jets leading receiver)
    5. Eagles: 145 YPG..... Brent Celek- 42 for 511. (lots of spread formation)
    6. Giants: 138 YPG..... Kevin Boss- 35 for 531. (lots of spread formation. Giants actually want to use Boss more in pass game)
    7. Texans: 128 YPG.... Owen Daniels/Joel Dreessen- 74 for 989. (better receivers than blockers)
    8. Bucs: 125 YPG....... Winslow JR- 66 for 730 (Bucs leading receiver)
    9. Pats: 123 YPG........ Gronkowski & Hernandez- 87 for 1109, 16 TDs. (Rookies!)
    10. Vikings: 121 YPG.. Vincent Shiancoe- 47 for 530. (Vikes 2nd leading receiver)
    11. Pitt: 120 YPG....... Heath Miller- 42 for 512. (3rd in receptions. solid dual threat TE)
    12. Falcons: 118 YPG.. Tony Gonzalez- 70 for 656. (better receiver than blocker).
    22. Miami: 103 YPG.... Anthony Fasano (best blocker in the NFL according to you)
    **** The teams on the above list (except Miami), by your reasoning, should have the best blocking #1 TEs in the league. So who are they?..... Or where are they?

    I'd like to point out 1 thing. It's this position called the fullback. Apparently guys like Vonta Leach, Ovie Mughelli, Marcel Reece, Greg Jones, Madison Hedgecock, Owen Schmitt, and Tony Richardson had nothing to do with the running success of the above teams.


    Here are the top 9 teams in rushing TDs:
    1. Texans- 20 TDs..... Golly, how did they manage such a feat without elite run blocking TEs?
    2. Pats- 19............... 19 TDs with 2 rookie TEs? Say it ain't so.
    2. Raiders- 19........... Hmmmm, maybe there is such a thing as a dual threat TE.
    4. Eagles- 18
    4. Chargers- 18......... Gotta be a typo!! No way a team with Antonio Gates runs for 18 TDs.
    6. Giants- 17
    7. Vikings- 16
    8. Steelers- 15
    9. Falcons- 14.......... How the heck did they finish top 10 with Gonzalez?
    9. Jags- 14
    9. Jets- 14............... Dustin Keller---- need I say more?
    29. Miami- 8
    **** Yup, nothing but elite blocking TEs in that group, and no good FBs either. <sarcasm>

    How about the top 9 in yards per attempt?
    1. Eagles, 5.4
    2. Raiders, 4.9
    3. Texans, 4.8
    4. Jaguars, 4.7
    4. Chiefs, 4.7
    6. Giants, 4.6
    6. Bucs, 4.6
    8. Vikings, 4.4
    8. Jets, 4.4
    31. Miami, 3.7
    ***** Another list full of elite blocking TEs and no good FBs. <sarcasm>

    --Who led the NFL in rushing YPG in 2009? Jets. And who is their primary TE? Yes, Dustin Keller. They're lucky he's such an elite blocking TE or this might've never happened. <sarcasm>

    --Who was 2nd in rushing in 2008? It can't be the Falcons with that horrendous, one-dimensional Tony Gonzalez guy, can it?

    --How did the team with arguably the top #1 run blocking TE in the league do? The Broncos & Daniel Graham finished 26th in YPG and 23rd in avg. Between Miami & Denver with Fasano & Graham, I can totally understand your point about emphasizing blocking as the most important trait for a #1 TE. <more sarcasm>



    You can have your blocking #1 TE who isn't a threat in the passing game. Good luck with that. :tongue2:
    I'll take an Oline that can block, a good FB, a solid #2 blocking TE, and a #1 TE who is either a dual threat or at least a receiving threat and average blocker.
     
  34. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    He's too good of a player though TP to keep off of the field. A plus blocker and a good receiver is a dual threat. He might not be able to push the seam but we'd be far less critical of him if we had someone at WR other than Hartline with some speed. If anything Marshall has served the role of an athletic TE (Dallas Clark like) when he's in the slot. It's the RB/flanker situation that's a very big problem. Notice that the Jets as you mentioned often times run out of a formation with their 3 WRs and Keller. That's not a traditional running formation but it's extremely effective. The opposing team is likely in a dime formation and their offensive line is capable of taking advantage of the lack of personnel facing them. The most effective move Miami can make for its running game is forcing opposing teams to place 2 backup CBs on the field. Marshall has to be double covered against almost every team and you need a safety over the top or Hartline/another speedster can burn you. That's six defensive backs on the field trying to stop four Miami WRs. With an improved line imagine what Miami could do in the running game against what likely is a pass front. You've got an advantage of five guys plus a quick RB against a four man line and one LB. Incognito holds up against the NT or 2-gap DT and that's a major gain until the strong safety can stop the RB.

    Where does Fasano fit in this? I'd say around the red zone and in short passing situations I'd use Fasano. That's where he's most effective. Replace Bess in the red zone with Fasano and replace whichever speed WR you add in short passing situations like 3rd and 4 and 3rd and 6 with Fasano. Chances are you won't ever have to use a garbage TE that way on the field since Fasano likely won't be gassed.
     
  35. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I'm not saying that he's not good, but I am saying that he's not "so good" that he's untouchable. He still presents a void in this offense, and Marshall shouldn't have to fill the role of an athletic TE. Most of us agree that we desperately need a #2 TE who can catch, so it's not like having Fasano keeps us from addressing this need (as the two are unrelated). What I'm also saying is that a talented prospect can start as the #2 and groom into a #1 who is an ok blocker while providing a threat in the pass game.

    Question: How many #1 TEs in the league would you rather have than Fasano (including young guys with the potential to better)?
     
  36. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    I'd say about 10-12.

    I think Fasano hurts you far less though if you use him in the right circumstances. On a 3rd and 4 play, a 2 and 3, 3rd and 7, goal-line situations etc. It's first and ten, second and eight in the, third and long where the guy can't do much for you. I can't think of a better player to threaten the safeties from the slot than Brandon Marshall. It might not be the same as having someone do it off the line but many of these athletic players you mention do it flexed out. The biggest difference between Marshall and having that 2nd TE you talk about on the field is that no S can cover Brandon Marshall. None, zip, nada, zilch. On the other hand some can cover say a Dustin Keller. I'd rather have that backup midget CB trying to stop Marshall in the running game than have that athletic TE blocking either a LB or a S.

    If you want to get an athletic TE for the red zone then that's a great idea, but thinking that he's going to be on the field as much as the trio of WRs Miami has is isn't likely.
     
  37. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    In the Lions game, we didn't have Fasano, yet we ran the ball well in the first half with a rookie TE (before injuries).

    Henne lit up the first half in part because Shuler is a greater mismatch on LBs than Fasano is, and he's a better threat to stretch the field (evidenced by his 2 receptions of 28 yards & 16 yards.

    28 yards would be Fasano's 2nd longest catch of his career (31 is the long), and Shuler's 16 yard reception is better than 18 of Fasano's game longs.

    Before injuries shuffled the Oline in the 2nd half, Henne and the offense moved the ball very well (considering the wind) with a starting TE who is a better threat to stretch the field.

    As for your very good opening question, I'd say we need someone with decent speed who can occasionally play in the slot (Hartline, FA, or a rookie) who has the ability to attack the safeties (which Bess cant do) so that our TE can see soft spots vertically, and so Marshall can make more plays with less coverage draped over him. IMO you could do this by drafting a speed receiver like Jernigan who can play the slot while Hartline and Marshall are outside, and we add a playmaking COP back who is a threat in the passing game. Or you can do it by upgrading the #2 WR spot which frees up Hartline to occasionally play in the slot. The final piece is a TE who can consistently beat a LB in single coverage.

    Let's say you have:
    Marshall---- Hartline--------- XXXXX- Jordan Cameron----------- Mike Sims Walker (with Taiwan Jones at RB who runs a sub 4.4)

    Marshall will draw a lot of attention while Hartline can run a corner route etc to attack the FS. Sims Walker can attack the SS. Taiwan is a mismatch on a LB, and Cameron can get past a linebacker into the soft spot created by Hart & Walker attacking the safeties. If TE isn't open, then you still have Marshall & Taiwan for a potential YAC reception (where we didn't last season).

    You could go empty backfield with it, a normal 3 WR spread with the TE in tight, or 4 spread. There are a lot of ways we could attack the safeties to give better opportunities for Marshall, the TE, and the RB underneath.

    Bess comes in on 3rd down (and non-long), redzone, and 2nd and <7 when we need to move the chains. IMO Davone is a liability when we want our offense to have chunk yardage capability or when in a 3rd and long. He doesn't allow us to attack the field during times when we should be able to attack it. However, when you need 3-8 yards, he's probably the best in the league. I'd like to see us where we can get the best talent on the field for each circumstance. After all, defenses utilize situational players (2 down LBs, pass rush specialists, nickel CBs, etc) and pay them decent money if they're good at what they do, so why cant we do the same with our offense regarding WR (namely Bess in the slot)?
     
  38. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    I'd counter and say that a more effective grouping would be Jacoby Jones------Marshall-----xxxxx-------Bess--------Hartline (with DeAngelo Williams at RB). The balance of those pass options and the formations they'll be facing will lead to easy 5-6 yard gains for DeAngelo Williams in addition to having three safety valve options for Henne in Marshall and Bess on the field with a RB that can catch Henne's no-touch short passes. Running to the left especially against a CB which Marshall will manhandle, Jake Long at LT, and perhaps a Pouncey at LG would be excellent. They'll be facing a dime formation with an undersized pass rusher at RE trying to get around Long, a one-gap DT, and a small CB. Hartline can play in the slot to be sure but he's just fine as an outside WR as well and he does get down the field. I'd hate to take Bess off the field even.
     
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  39. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Because if the TE can't block, its just a 4-WR formation????


    Yea, that 5-4 advantage really helped Bryan Bulaga from getting knocked on his ***. What a surprise :001_rolleyes:

    Henne was very capable against the blitz. Because he had guys like Anthony Fasano. His QBR was 48 when under pressure. Thats the type of situation you want to put him in?

    Yes, they do have the personnel.


    Because the examples you cite are of players who are ineffective blockers?

    Finley is a much worse blocker than Fasano is a receiver. It really isn't as philosophical as you want to make it.
     
  40. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I agree with you about creating mismatches with Marshall on LBs and Safeties when he's the primary target; however, I'm not a fan of using Marshall as a decoy to attack a safety and using Bess as the secondary receiver if the TE isn't open down the middle. IMO that defeats much of the purpose.

    IMO we have enough guys on our offense to convert these "3rd and 4 play, a 2 and 3, 3rd and 7, goal-line situations etc" that you mentioned, especially if we add a good COP back. We already have one of if not the best tandem in the league in Bess & Marshall for converting these situations. Fasano becomes a little overkill, evidenced by him finishing 16th in total 1st downs among TEs despite being the ONLY tight end on our team. Does it really matter how good of a "converter" he is if we don't need to call his number during these situations?

    And this is where this team needs serious help. At what point do we say "ok, we have enough possession guys. Let's look for players who pick up chunk yards?". If we lacked possession type players and were loaded in speedy vertical threats, then I'd be looking for a possession guy like Fasano, but that's not the case.
     

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