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Scouts inc, Koa Misi, Dolphins D poised to be Elite

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, May 4, 2011.

  1. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    I really just want a healthy defense.
     
  2. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    Well, if that's the case, any of the highlighted linebackers (outside of Wake, we already have him) to take his place.
     
  3. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    dj, got you on the 'elite' dealio .... but will submit this ...

    'statistically' we've had a top 10 defense quite often in the last decade or so ... some of which were top 5 -- but i would not call a single PHIN 'D' in the last decade + as elite (even with some of the tremendous talent we had at the time).

    i DO agree, that we are on the cusp of being elite though ... we are that impact player away - whether that be a FS or OLB, we just don't have that dude in the fold yet ...
     
  4. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    The point of the story is all wrong, it should really read "Elite, poised to be Koa Misi"
     
    Dolfan984 likes this.
  5. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Teams themselves keep the stat, it is not an "official" NFL stat, that is why you see some player with insanely high tackle totals as in the 180's.
     
  6. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    IMO a very good to elite D will just about get you 8 wins on it's own. That's why I see all these doom and gloom projections as very unlikely.
     
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  7. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Tough to win like that Rafi, you can stay in games, but winning them is an adventure.

    Agree about gloom and doom, do think we are more or less back to 2008 with no idea what Daboll will do, or if Henne will be effective, or if the running game will rebound that is 3 questions playoff teams maybe have 1 or 2 large questions, how those are answered is how the season will play out imo.
     
  8. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Such a defense keeps you in every game and assuming neutral luck you win about half of them. That's why I said it gets you 8 wins. That's not enough to contend. To contend you need a couple more wins. That's where an efficient passing game comes in (points come out of the passing game). My guess is that they want to run a run based offense (think '72 Dolphins) but with more of a short passing game. The '72 offense was run based with a long passing game. Today's NFL rules favors the short passing game so that has to be part of it. You still need enough of a deep threat to keep the defense honest though.
     
  9. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Thats a freakin tough question 22, ummmm, I would take MCD over Merling, langford, man thats tough..I cant do it over starks, he's too good , and still young, just to grizzly of young vet that he is... I cant take him over our first rounder Odrick, the investment is to big, and not over Solai..so he's neck and neck with Langford

    Its close between he and Langford..Langford is so stout, and still improving..

    We should be able to keep him if we can find a trade for Merling.

    Were so deep I can't choose to take someone else over one of my favorite players...

    I do know if we can sign him there is an open competition at both ends for starting roles...2 positions 4 players, Langford, Odrick, Starks, MCD...WOW, you know what i'am saying?

    I think if iam Irish, Ive got to put someone on the market and ask for a 2nd rounder and see what happens, I think thats how you benefit from great scouting and gathering such a collection of talent..if you get the 2nd you part ways, shed a few tears and improve another area of your team.
     
  10. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't understand how Misi playing ILB has gained any bit of traction at all. When have you seen him line up in a pursuit position?
     
    Ohio Fanatic likes this.
  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    man did clemons play good ball thru the first 5 games of the season last year..Dansby, Wake, and Misi, cover lot of ground, our dline was flat out dominant...young athletic corners, I dont know Pod..

    shall we go toe to toe with your favorite defense in the past 35 years over this one? I'll take these guys strait up over any of them...I mean you have Jason, Zach, Timbo, surtain, and who else?
     
  12. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Personally if MCD is focused I want him. We can't trade him so we won't get any where near his value in return if we let him walk.

    Therefore I look at our other options, and if we can trade for fair value , well hey we need talent and draft choices. Odrick has injury concerns so he may not get full value , but Langford or Starks should. I would rather have a similar level of talent in a different position player or like you said a second round pick perhaps and pay MCD.

    We have a real asset , I want value for him one way or another.
     
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  13. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Problem with CC is he does not make enough plays, as in turnovers, he is fast and is rarely burned, but he is not that playmaking FS that we need, R Jones makes plays, but does not have that speed we need back there imo.

    Crowder and Dobbins have been covered elsewhere...


    Killer B's, the No Names, zone teams that created turnovers and made SB's under Bill Arnsparger whom interestingly enough, we never made a SB without.

    Arnsparger used to smoke cigs on the sidelines Deej..old school indeed!
     
  14. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    McD wants to get paid D22, he talks about that virtually every day on Twitter, we won't pay him as we have a logjam at DE as it is.

    Odie, Merling, etc, they cannot pick a Qb for crap, they know dlineman to a "T".
     
  15. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    s this a good time to point a good ST unit saves the Defense yards they can use to defend the endzone?
     
  16. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think the whole Tony McDaniel think is pointless to debate until the labor situation gets worked out. We don't know if he's tendered or not(We never got information on him from our stellar local beat reporters). If the NFL operates under 2010 rules, he's a RFA.
     
    dolfan22 likes this.
  17. Makados10

    Makados10 Active Member

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    Only knock I have on our D from last year were the dropped INTs.

    Sparano really needs to get off stat grinding players to death with positive and negative plays imo. I think that is having a negative effect on our players psyche...
     
  18. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would just say that Tony McDaniel has flashes where he looks really good. Randy Starks, for the entire 2009 season, played that well all the time, not just coming in off the bench. Starks last year looked like he'd bulked up and was prepared to play NT. You have to remember that a rookie, Jared Odrick, beat out Tony McDaniel to earn that starting spot. Then, when Odrick went down, who'd they ask to come and play that DE spot? Not Tony McDaniel. They gambled on Paul Soliai taking over the nose duties and played Starks back at DE, not McDaniel. And Starks clearly didn't play at the same level in 2010 that he did in 2009.

    As far as McDaniel, I think he's a good role player and he did well there. But he's not better than Starks or Langford, and based on the fact that Odrick earned that starting role over McDaniel, I'd be inclined to believe that they view him as a rotational player. You have to ask yourself, was his play really that much better than Phillip Merling's as a role player in 2009? Maybe, but not by much. I think purely from those standpoints, it's better to have Odrick and Merling, who are already under contract than have to re-sign McDaniel, who thinks and wants a starter's role and money.

    If the 2010 rules come back into play, and McDaniel is a RFA, perhaps Miami can tender him and get a decent draft pick.
     
    rafael likes this.
  19. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Misi impressed me against the run. He'll be just fine...
     
  20. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I think we should .

    First as I have mentioned , I feel he is about to be a pro bowl player if money doesn't change him . Personally I like and want him as a starter . We should be able to trade another of the dline for value. We have more than one we can part with which makes it easier to find another team to trade with. Why would Miami not use the strength they've acquired to our best advantage?

    Letting him go doesn't net you fair value and it isn't now either. Randy Starks or Kendall Langford whould get a really good player if you go that route , or you bank the next year's pick ala Jason Taylor.

    Not sure why Miami wouldn't try to get better , and better this season?
     
  21. BlameItOnTheHenne

    BlameItOnTheHenne Taking a poop

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    who?
     
  22. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    It would only be followed by a showing that the net effect of a good ST on the final record is marginal. :tongue2:
     
  23. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    And I can show you a #1 ranked offense, #1 ranked defense, that had the 32nd ranked ST and missed the playoffs!

    :wink2:

    I'd think no one would be happier about the change in kickoffs from the 30 to the 35 then Tony Sparano..:lol:
     
  24. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    San Diego also had a negative turnover ratio which is something that has been conclusively shown to have a big impact on a team's won/loss record over many years. Conversely, every regression analysis I've ever seen finds almost no correlation between good STs and a wining record over the course of a season. There are simply too few STs plays compared to offense and defense and the impact of a big STs play is no greater than a big play on offense or defense.
     
  25. arsenal

    arsenal Sunglasses and advil

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    this thread kind of sidetracked... but count me in one one who loves Misi... i think hes gonna be something special in the next few years...
     
  26. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    How about this year ! :)
     
  27. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Good points , I appreciate you outlining them.

    I touched on some of the points in a reply to Pads , but for me it is two things. One , I really think MCD is a burgeoning big time bonafide player . Two , is that I see a way to improve the team by signing him and trading from depth , a pretty good player that could turn into a similar level of talent at a different position ( LG / TE / RB / S / LB ) or a pretty high draft choice.

    It isn't , at all , that I don't like Starks or Langford , it is that this team has a manageable asset that it can use effectively , or not , to improve noticeably. Plus he played so well last year , that to me , as I have said , I feel he truly is on the cusp to be a real force for the team he plays for. Hate to not get value for him , really would hate it.
     
  28. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Every?

    http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/08/importance-of-special-teams.html

    ST effects the Defense and offense in a clear manner, every yrd they gain, or surrender is one more the offense or defense has to gain or defend.

    ST combines elements of offense and defense, when you have a bad unit it does effect outcomes, for example the Saints onside kick v the Colts in the SB.
     
  29. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Even that analysis which admits that there may be a limitation in the DVOA model (which I've never found to be a useful tool) concludes that STs accounts for 20% of the game. That leaves the other 80% for offense and defense (most have that about evenly split 40% for each). Every other analysis I've seen concludes that STs is about 16% - 17% of the game which I agree with. That doesn't meant that STs has no effect that means that STs affects at most 20% and is at most half as important as offense or defense. Which is what I have always maintained.
     
  30. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Why would he sign a contract just to be traded?

    IMO teams that win in this league have a strength. Miami's defensive line can be their strength. Getting rid of the strength lowers their chance to win.
     
  31. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    There is a huge difference betweeen 20% and no correlation and all analysis has flaws.
     
  32. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    He would sign a contract to play here in Miami , which would allow Miami to trade someone of the calibre of Starks or Langford.

    The concensus is that MCD wants to be paid like an above average starter and to play as a starter. I understand that , so to sign him at that compensation and have Starks , Langford , Odrck , Merling and MCD in the rotation may not be either feasible or make economic sense. If that is the case , I would explore signing , keeping and playing MCD , trade one of the others for fair value . We still would have very good depth , and maybe have a comparable level of player at a position we are not nearly as strong at. That player would be playing and contributing , this season , not down the road. Or they could elect to take a fair draft choice in return.

    As opposed to letting MCD go for minimal and likely future compensation , I think my option is a far better choice .
     
  33. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    This defense isn't becoming elite unless either Vontae Davis or Sean Smith become elite. Its on the younger guys making the transition from promising to elite.
     
  34. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Starks is too good of a passrusher to trade IMO. Langford is too young, and is a superior player to McDaniel IMO. Odrick falls in the same category as Starks, as he has a lot more to offer than McD in terms of rushing the passer.
     
  35. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    You may be correct , and if you are , why would you not use your superior depth and talent at a desired position to improve your team? We may disagree on which player we feel is more valuable, but I doubt we disagree that there isn't much of a gap in talent or play. I really liked what I saw , MCD was productive and physical and disruptive and I think the best is yet to come . I really do.

    I don't see where Miami has such a plethora of talent at other positions to not take full advantage of this to be honest. You're agreeing with me that Starks or Langford , for instance , TE or G or S or ?. Miami can make themselves better , imo.
     

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