Henne vs Matt Ryan; A QB who's been impaired by his team vs one helped by it.

They had an excellent running game that year, for sure. But their running game the past two years were not that great. Last year they just ran it more than us (maybe due to too many 3 and outs ..) but their ypc was the same as ours. Their Oline was not better than ours, at least when it came to sacks. that was debunked.

How much impact can an LT have? 1/5. That's it. They can lock their man down. IF the guy next to you sucks guess what. Jake Long is the smarter pick, everyone wants to show the impact Jake Long has had, yet Oline is one of the excuses given for Chad Henne's poor performance! I find that hilarious!

 

Must've been Cleveland, I remember that game well (note to self, never be ATL as outdoor road favorites). ATL jumped out on Cincy by like 20, then blew the lead only to come back and win it late. By the way, Cleveland stuck it to some really good QBs this year, including Brady & Brees in back to back weeks (both wins). But hey it's still "Cleveland" so if we cant beat them then our QB must suck.

 

Pass pro isnt as simple as sacks allowed. Pressures are also important. As are how many blockers are being used in protection. Henning uses more max pro than any OC in the league, even though we're rarely blitzed. That takes a lot of pressure off of the OL and puts it on the 2-3 Wrs/TEs who have to find space among a sea of defenders.

Not exactly. LT protects the QBs blind side, and where most teams place their premier pass rusher. Ask Matt Stafford how important it is.

 

Ask Matt hassleback

 

Friend GMJohnson:

1) can you read? I posted: regardless of teams..."spin as it as you will, there is no favorable comparison." the gist of the thread was basically an apology, an excuse for Henne's lack of ability & accomplishment, implying that Ryan would do no better in similar circumstances i.e. Henne & Ryan are comparable in talent & potential.

2) I've enjoyed the thread but totally & respectfully disagree with the premise that the "real" difference between the two QB's is circumstance when anyone with eyes can plainly see the obvious difference between the two is talent. I respect Friend ToddsPhins' opinion. he's made an excellent argument & produced a very good thread. I simply don't agree with him on this subject & I'm not alone in this disagreement.

3) we have a few pundits on this board, neither of us are one of them. having said that, its not the purpose of our forum to be professional football analysts. last time I looked it was about sharing information, ideas, opinions & the brotherhood of the forum.

4) were you elected Sheriff of the Forum or just got the cyber-bully thing going for you today? I suggest you post the thread & leave your personal opinions about fellow posters aside. be nice.

 

Man, his whole OL was a disaster last year. I felt kinda bad for him .

 

And when he went to the superbowl he had one hell of a LT.

 

So the answer is no, you cannot read. Thanks.

Again, nothing like that was ever said. The thread & it's title are very simple. Atlanta did a good job of helping Ryan to maximize his talents, while Miami did not do the same w/ Henne. Perhaps field position, turnovers, consistent running game, solid ST units, HOF TEs and the like mean nothing to you, it would certainly explain why you appear so confused.

What info are you sharing? All you're doing taking a factually based and well thought out thread and dismissing it out of hand w/ some gibberish about how selecting a 3 time Pro-Bowler at LT was a "devastating mistake". I suppose Richmond Webb & Keith Sims were "devastating mistakes" b/c we could've had Emmit Smith and Neil O'donnel. Hindsight is 20/20 but you haven't made an attempt to address the points TP made, I doubt that you can.

Sorry, I just get tired of wannabe fans bashing members of my team when the reality is they don't have much of a clue what they're talking about. No offense.

Yep. And my opinion is that some of the opinions here aren't worth the space they take up on the screen. TP made an excellent post with plenty of "gems of wisdom" that seem to have flown beneath your radar. You say he's dead wrong but you cant/won't offer a shred of evidence to refute anything he says. Respect is a two way street, Friend 23rd.

 

That whole left wide was in beast mode, Walter Jones & Steve Hutchinson? With Shaun Alexander running behind them (for 20+ TDs and the NFL MVP award) and a solid defense? That's how you win when you don't have an elite QB.

 

Your answer is impressive without being able to read. Do you use a program such as Dragon natural speaking?

 

I have my seeing eye dog to read for me. He puts Lassie to shame .

 

I bet I can come up with something almost every single poster here can agree with!!


Dan Henning was about the worst thing this offense had in it's arsenal last season. Not so much because he just sucks, but moreso because he is so stubborn and seemingly played his plan no matter what. Never playing to an offenses strengths.














oh yeah and the running backs sucked too...

 

Friend ToddsPhins:
let me congratulate you on another excellent thread. you never disappoint.
having said that
& knowing full-well the importance of statistics & sundry data in making an argument, I would relay to you what was said to me in a graduate statistics class: a clever mind can argue any point with statistics. you can sum anything to your own end when you control the variables.

this in no way negates the fine work you have presented.
my reason for the post is to help clarify my personal perspective.

 

Carey, a quality LT in this league ... dude can't handle speed rushers as a RT, exactly how would he actually handle the 'best' speed rushers on the left side. If this regime thought that highly of Vernon, then no matter how much of a 'safe' pick Long was -- we would have gone in a different direction.

Ryan would be getting blasted continuously if we drafted him and not Long .... albeit, equally -- i would have to bet a good sum of $$$$ that we would have invested in a LT along the way.

Folks can compare Henne to anyone they want - Ryan, Flacco, and even Sanchez ... but until any of them win a SB (maybe even get to one) -- i don't rightly care.

 

Friend GMJohnson:

just think about it. I'm sure I'm not only one that harbors these opinions.

1) I posted: regardless of teams..."spin as it as you will, there is no favorable comparison." the gist of the thread was basically an apology, an excuse for Henne's lack of ability & accomplishment, implying that Ryan would do no better in similar circumstances i.e. Henne & Ryan are comparable in talent & potential.

2) I've enjoyed the thread but totally & respectfully disagree with the premise that the "real" difference between the two QB's is circumstance when anyone with eyes can plainly see the obvious difference between the two is talent. I respect Friend ToddsPhins' opinion. he's made an excellent argument & produced a very good thread. I simply don't agree with him on this subject & I'm not alone in this disagreement.

3) we have a few pundits on this board, neither of us are one of them. having said that, its not the purpose of our forum to be professional football analysts. last time I looked it was about sharing information, ideas, opinions & the brotherhood of the forum.

4) were you elected Sheriff of the Forum or just got the cyber-bully thing going for you today? I suggest you post the thread & leave your personal opinions about fellow posters aside. be nice.

 

Then your assumption is that the surrounding cast of the team, the strength of schedule, etc doesn't count in comparing the two guys ?? That's just the point that Todd was trying to make and you ignored it as if he didn't post anything at all....

None of us can say that if Henne were in Ryan's shoes and vice versa that the results for a Ryan led Fins team would be the same or a Henne led Falcons team would have fared the same as they have. All you can really say about Henne is that, at this point, he's not a Marino, Elway, Unitas, etc that carried their respective teams... However, conversely, neither can you say that Ryan is one of those guys...

 

Let me say this, friend....

1) The thread was not an apology, it was stating fact that the surrounding cast, strength of schedule, the coaching, and the talent acquisition for Henne has been inferior to that of Ryan.

2) Circumstances quite often make or break a player. Joey Harrington, David Carr, Alex Smith, Matt Leinart, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Ben Rothlisberger all come to mind of those types of players that had the accolades (or better) that Henne and Ryan did coming out of school, but thru the fate of the NFL draft wound up in drastically different circumstances... Would Big Ben have been as successful in Detroit the year he came out ?? I highly doubt it. Circumstances and surrounding cast are all of what the NFL is about.

3) No real argument there. Some fans of the Fins like Henne and what he's done, some don't. That's what this forum is about and why many of us are here...

4) Didn't read far enough up to see the diss that went out. If someone doesn't like what another poster says...as you said, move on and let it go...

 

Very good post, Todd. I definitely agree with you that Chad Henne has not had the benefit of a consistently strong defense and a consistently strong running game in the way that both Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco have had that kind of assistance. A great point was made the other day in an article I read. Miami has taken an approach this offseason that will make Chad Henne more of a facilitator of the offense rather than the focal point of the offense. Last year, Chad Henne became the focal point. We couldn't run for anything, especially on first down. This put us into a lot of 2nd and 3rd and long situations. Still, even with that, Chad Henne was the 6th best quarterback in the NFL at converting third down opportunities and was the best quarterback at converting 3rd downs with less than 7 yards to go.

I think the Dolphins realize this, which is why they drafted Mike Pouncey, Daniel Thomas, Edmund Gates, and Charles Clay. They are working towards getting the situation around Chad Henne better to see if they can get maximal performance from him.

I still think there is some doubt in their minds though, which is why they toyed with the idea of trading up into the third round to get Ryan Mallett. The biggest thing Chad has to improve upon his how fast he processes information. Most of his interceptions came in the 1-10 yard range, and that tells me that he was slow to go to his check down route. There were some plays that based on the coverage he was given, he should have read his check down route first and didn't.

It is my opinion that no matter what, you do not know what you have in a quarterback until he gets 1,000 pass attempts under his belt.

 

not if the post came across, but here it goes again.

in my mind, the issue is not whether Matt Ryan is better than Chad Henne at this stage in their careers. I believe Ryan is quite a bit better, but his team is also quite a bit better than ours.

the real issue is whether Jake Long and Chad Henne are better than Matt Ryan and a tackle like Duane Brown or John Greco

 

Oh please. Stop crying. My point is if you can't bring a damn fact or reason as to why you disagree, don't bring anything.

 

Ask Peyton Manning. Tom Brady. Ben Roethlisberger. Eli Manning. none of them had elite LT's. Tarik Glenn. David Diehl (who never played LT before sliding over and was a very crappy LT). Matt Light is pretty good. Elite? Max Starks? The Steelers have had ONE pro bowl LT since 1969. Marvel Smith in 2004. They've drafted ONE LT int he first round since 1969.

So are the steelers doing it wrong? One of the best ran teams in the league, ignoring the LT position? How is that so.

 

Philip Rivers?

 

I can safely say that Ryan is a franchise Qb and that so far Henne has not shown that level of ability. I do not think that Henne would have fared as well as Ryan in Atlanta and I do think that Ryan would have proved to be a franchise Qb here. Obviously NFL GMs saw a great deal of difference in the talent levels based upon where each player was drafted and they have proved to be correct. Ryan is just simply a lot better of a Qb than Henne and I believe that would come through on any team with any schedule and any amount of talent on offense.

 

Guy was drafted #3 and put up 28 TDs vs 9 Ints and people are saying he isn't much better than Henne who went almost to the end of the second round and we don't know if he'll ever throw less INT's than TD's for a season. These are the names that had more TD's than Ryan.

Brady. Brees. Two Mannings. Rivers. Rodgers. Ryan.

Pretty damn good list to be at the end of. Of that list only Brady had less INTs. His YPA is pretty much the thing that kills his ratings, they are low. I don't know enough about ATL's offense to determine whether that is their scheme, or him. Roddy White had the lowest ypr of his career but then also had his best year (2008 is close hey that's Ryan's rookie year).

There is no question who is the better QB. It's Ryan. It's borderline delusional to think otherwise.

The real question we should be asking is whether Henne can develop enough to play for us. That's what we should focus on. Ryan is the better QB. would he have been that good here? Who knows. But he'd be better than Henne that's for sure. I don't think Vernon Carey is any worse than Sam Baker so Ryan's blindside should have been ok. But again, that's water under the bridge. It's spilled milk. It's a done deal (austin power'ish cliche run going on there).

 

I look forward to the day when our team is good again so we have something positive to talk about. Forum seems to be getting more cynical and abrasive by the week.
At least if free agency ever opens up, we can have something fun to talk about. The endless Henne bashing posts are getting so old.
The likely scenario is that Henne is our QB this year. Deal with it and move on.

 

No new news about the players or the team is one of the problems, with just last season to rehash over and over, with the way the season ended people were not going to be happy.

What is funny to me is when Saban left people were outraged! He went 15-17 in Miami, when Sparano wasn't fired people were outraged!

Sparano, excluding 2008, has one less win then Saban, Henne was the same Qb in 2010 as he was in 09, moving into 2010 people were excited about Henne's prospects, 1 yr later he is a bum. For the last 3 seasons we have played meaningful late December games and yet, the awfulness that preceeded Sparano is quickly forgotten.

 

Again the OP isn't saying anything about Henne Vs Ryan. It's entire purpose is to show the support Atlanta/Miami give their QB's regardless of who is playing for them. A lot of folks have failed in basic reading fundamentals to understand such.

There is one offender in this thread (not you) who has consistently always been much more concerned about the style of his post over any substance whatsoever in his posts...hence why he's been ignored for a long time.

Very interesting thread OP and good job at the work put into it. I'm still squarely on the fence about Henne, but your thread just magnifies that our issues go MUCH deeper then just our QB and a lot of QB's would struggle mightily plugged into our offense of the past couple years.

 

I continue to laugh at those that consider Matt Ryan a franchise quarterback. Anyone know what his numbers were when his team did not run for 100 yards?

77.4 QBR, 13 TDs, 9 INTs, 5.8 YPA, 59% completion percentage.

When his team rushes for 100 yards, Matt Ryan posted a 104 QBR with 15 TDs, 0 INTs, 6.8 YPA, and a 67% completion percentage.

So, don't tell me this guy doesn't benefit from having a strong running game. The only thing he has on Henne right now is that he avoids interceptions when he is checking down. He absolutely does not carry his team though, because he does not elevate his game when everything around him isn't working well.

 

Believe you me, Chad Henne deserves most of the blame for his poor performance. He made a lot of poor decisions last year and was for the most part a statue in the pocket.

That's not the argument though, my argument was that how many of Henne's sacks and or pressure's came from the RE or ROLB. 1 maybe 2 all year? Now imagine that was Vernon Carey and our RT was a 2nd or 3rd round pick that this regime drafted. Also imagine Matt Ryan was our QB. How healthy do you think he would be each year? That scenario doesen't even consider the fact that Vernon Carey is consistently beat up and is a far better RT than LT. My point was more that given our situation, Long was the right pick. Drafting a QB there would have been worthless b/c the parts around him would have been so bad that we would waste a perfectly viable franchise QB.

In the end, my knock is more on the FO for doing a terrible job of putting together the right pieces for the OLine from day 1. They hit one, but that was an easy one and it cost a whole lot. The rest of their options along the interior line failed.

 

Great post, especially around the circumstances being very important in the success of a player (even a QB).

I will say that the fans who like Henne and what he's done are being slightly biased as Dolphin fans. The guy has not proven that he can even be a solid QB for a team that can consistently get to the playoffs with solid pieces around him. He makes some TERRIBLE choices and has ZERO mobility in the pocket. That being said, he still has some growing to do potentially and maybe fans think he can turn into a player that we will be happy with their production. Right now if you say you are happy with his production, I think you are being a little biased.

 

And I would say as a Falcon fan in 2008, I would rather have Ryan and Brown or Greco.

As a Dolphin fan in 2008 (even in hindsight), I would rather have Long and anything in the 2nd round (even if it's Henne). We needed that franchise lineman based on all of the other issues (especially along the line) this team had going into 2008.